POW - a question

[centroid]

I've been thinking about the value of Picture of the Week competition, in the now very large, and still growing SGL.

Here is my 'take' on it (and yes, I have had a couple of POWs).

In the early days of imaging, getting good results, with meagre equipment, and basic image processing software, was quite a challenge.

Some of the early DSO images produced with modified web cams, and the like, were testament to the operators skills and achievement. Also, imaging was far less common place, than it is today.

With the proliferation 'ready made' imaging 'kit', IMO imaging today, is much more a case of "if you can afford the gear", then its all down to the 'seeing', and some processing skills. The latter, being made much easier by the advances in digital image processing software.

I, like many of SGL's imagers, have thousands of pounds worth gear (only because I'm retired, have raised my family, and provided for my retirement), and under good 'seeing' we can all produce good images. However, I really don't see this as fair competition, to someone with a limited budget.

Does this not create a 'them and us situation', with perhaps PoW winners seen as some sort of 'elite fraternity'. I would hope not, as I consider that when I achieve a good image, its more down to the gear that I have, the prevailing 'seeing', and not any special skill.

Being sensible, then of course there is a degree of 'learned skill', that comes with practice (and a lot of failed images ). However, the 'bottom line' is, that I've been fortunate to be able to afford some 'reasonable' 'kit'.

When I joined SGL at the beginning of 2007, there were just 700 members, and only a small proportion of these members imaging.

Now, with SGL approaching some 4000 members, and a significant numbers of these members imaging, I see PoW as very different 'ball game', to say, two years ago.

Given a few clear nights, we now see a deluge of images 'posted'. Each one of these images has to be considered for PoW.

Martin and Roger, have recently been joined by Tim, in order to share the 'load', and none of these guys will ever complain, at what must now becoming quite an arduous task.

The standard of images 'posted' is now such, that choosing between them, has become an even more difficult task for these guys.

When Tim, by way of change, recently chose an image of people at SGL4 as Pow, it gave rise to some negative comments. Hardly thanks, for the 'work done' by these guys.

So, given the committment of our PoW judges, their ever increasing PoW 'work load', and the similarity in quality of many images, is it not time to look at what 'added value', if any, PoW now actually provides to the forum?.

IMO, PoW has 'run its course', served its purpose, and the forum has now outgrown it.

Time perhaps to 'retire it, give give our heartfelt thanks to our stalwart judges, and relieve them of a burden, that IMO, no longer adds any value.

Finally, before someone says, "what about the SGL calendar", well, the images will still be there on the forum, it just that they wouldn't have the title 'PoW'.

So, guys and gals, what are your views?

Dave

[Kai]

I think its up to the Judges and the guys in Admin to decide the direction of POW Dave ,afterall its their time and involvement that makes it what it is.

[Psychobilly]

I am sure (or at least hope) the Guys take into consideration the level of experience and the kit thats been used when making their decisions.. I know they have stated this in the past...

Sometimes I look at the pictures posted form some of the high end kit and wonder whether it was really worth all that expense As Kai said lets leave it to the Admins and Judges...

Peter...

[DeanWatson]

I would agree absolutely Dave regarding your comments about equipment/seeing athough I would suggest that seeing and LP are probably the bigger factor here - providing you have a scope of a given aperture, DSLR and guider/tracking mount makes for images of more or less the same quality be it a skywatcher scope or a bells and whistles apo.

I suffer light pollution and dodgy seeing (and lets not forget that many of us work full time and like to function the following day - something you lucky retired chaps needn't worry about on the whole!) like many of us and I think that sometimes those blessed with no work commitments, dark skies etc compared to the rest of us is a bit 'apples and oranges' I know that while I make fair images given the restrictions of my environment and available commitment, it can be a bit discouraging to know that I will probably never be POW - Good luck to those with all the advantages of course and by no means wishing to denigrate their achievments, but beyond showing us lovely examples of their work which is always appreicated, it does tend to make POW a bit elitist - Not something this board is normally guilty of.

It does indeed sometimes seem like POW is restricted (through no fault whatsoever of the judges!) to those with the right sky environment, the value of kit and the time available through retirement or unusual work arrangement. All facts of life, nd no one ever said it was fair, but I think sad nevertheless.

[centroid]

I think its up to the Judges and the guys in Admin to decide the direction of POW Dave ,afterall its their time and involvement that makes it what it is.

I fully agree Steve, but that not to say that the 'lay membership' can't voice an opinion, and open it up for discussion. Provided of course its constructive, and with the best interests of the forum at heart.

As I said, our PoW 'judges' would never complain, and perhaps we, as the people the people that are generating their ever increasing workload, should not take their goodwill for granted.

Dave

[steppenwolf]

Whilst I agree that the gear is very important, if it was just down to 'black box gear' then I for one would be moving onto another hobby! I only use my 'equipment' for the capture of the images which is only about 50% of the total process and often much less and I suspect that I am not alone in this. As for the 50% imaging time, that includes all the hassle of getting focus right (purely manually in my case), choosing the right exposure values, resolving the numerous technical challenges and so on.

I have been fortunate enough to have won POW in the past and don't really consider it to be any kind of 'competition' event as the award comes not only to the most technically advanced image each week but is also awarded for 'improvement' in imager's work and for producing unusual work and you never know for sure what will win in any one week.

Ironically, my all time favourite astronomy image (of my own) was taken with an unmodified Canon 300d and 200mm telephoto lens although it was piggy backed on my EQ6 mount and that is pretty basic gear.

I rather like the POW every week and would be the first to admit that I am glad I don't have to make the decision on who wins - hats off to the guys that do!

[barkis]

Personally, I like the SGLPOTW Competition. I fully understand what Dave has said, but I'm sure the thrill and anticipation of acheiving that goal, still permeates this forum. Believe it or not, I won it too once, although an Image of the same astronomical event was late in being posted, and I feel I might not have got the verdict otherwise.

Why not take the pressure off the three judges, if indeed they regard it as pressure. let the three of them pick 3 Images each, that they feel qualify, then let the members vote the winner by a poll.

It's worth a try, even if it shows the measure of interest in the POTW, Indicated by the number of voters. If they can't be bothered to vote, then consideration can be given to ending it altogether.

Ron.

[Jamie]

Some how i don't think that the POW judges will take too kindly to being asked/told that the would be better off retired as judges just because someone doesn't see the value of SGL's POW any more.....

Though I may be wrong...............

[centroid]

Thanks Steve and Dean, two 'sides of coin', nicely balanced.

I did say, that there was a degree of 'learned skill', which to agree with Steve, does indeed hold the interest. However, I'm sure that if I made my obsy and relatively dark skies available to those less fortunately placed, then they too would quickly assimilate the 'learned skills', and produce results that they cannot achieve from their home location, and within their available budget.

Clearly, based on Dean's comments, and I'm sure he is not alone, PoW does create an impression of 'eliteism' to some.

If this truly is the case, then that is contrary to all that SGL stands for.

Dave

[centroid]

Some how i don't think that the POW judges will take too kindly to being asked/told that the would be better off retired as judges just because someone doesn't see the value of SGL's POW any more.....

Though I may be wrong...............

Oh dear

Come on Jamie, having had the pleasure of meeting you, that doesn't 'fit' at all well.

You, and every one else reading this 'thread', knows full well that it not at all what I was suggesting.

I will now have to ask (PM) the judges, if that's how they see it, and if so, I will apologise to them.

I had hoped for constructive discussion, not provocative.

Disappointing

Dave

[SteveL]

Many months ago, I wont POW with an M51 image with my 350D, my first guided image on my NS8GPS... by any standards it was pretty poor, but I believe Roger gave me POW because of the progress I had made. I do cringe when I see the image now, but it was part of the learning process that I needed to do.

These days, I enjoy looking at POW to see what other people are doing, what they are imaging, kit used, etc. Its a weekly roundup of what people have been up to, what they have been trying to achieve, and how they are trying to better their own capture and processing abilities.

I have never seen POW as a benchmark of being one of the "elite" as it has been called... it should only ever be seen as a sign of progress for the people involved. People should always try to better themselves in everything they do, astronomy included, and its only natural for people to post up their results for either some help, comments tips, or just to say "thanks for your help, and this is how far I have progressed". Its a constant feedback loop... people ask, people improve, people post their images, they ask again. And then other new users on the learning curve can use these details to progress faster than they would normally.

As a previous POW winner, it becomes increasingly more difficult to win another POW... as the images created get better, then bettering them again becomes an exponentially difficult job. Its going to be incredibly difficult for me to be lucky enough to win another POW after my M42 back in december... but I am going to try, not because of the elitism that people are mistakenly seeing, but because of my own drive to improve my own imaging. Yes, its nice to show the images of to others... yes, its nice to see other people enjoy the images... and maybe there is a little competition between the usual suspects ... but in the end, I am only trying to beat myself and my last image. Thats all I require to make me happy, to make me continue, to aspire to be better than I was before, to make it worth spending the money (which is voluntary!), losing the many hours of sleep, the frustration at the clouds, the shortening nights.... i do this despite all of the issues and problems... I do it because I can, and because I hope that I can improve. Anything beyond that is just a nice bonus.

So, when do you think we can see an "Observation Of The Week" so that we can start talking about why people with Naglers and 26" dobs are elitest and the OOTW should be stopped because it has no purpose any more, just because the observation of the week wasnt about how person X managed to see the faint nebulosity in the Rosette with averted vision, and instead talked about what a great evening they had with their friends at the star party, and who was using what kit.

I do think this whole thing has been blown out of all proportion... the POW was never ever about the very best astro picture of a object in the sky. It was always a weekly roundup of images that users may not have seen, all in one place. On the two occasions that I had the chance to pick a POW, I always chose images from people who had progressed really quickly (TJ) or someone who churns out the images regularly, but didnt get any mention (Roger). Choosing the very best image of a sky object of the last 7 days is hard, along with the images from people who have shown that they have progressed, but it should be celebrating the best of astronomy, not the best image of a sky object. OK, that doesnt happen all that often, but images like the one TJ chose shouldnt be shot down in flames because its not a nice "pretty picture"... and then if it was a nice pretty picture, the messages above show that quite a few of you would class them as "elitist" and would mutter and muble about that as well.

If you find that TJ chosing an image that you disagree with strongly, then maybe you have more pressing issues with your life... Chill people! In the grand scheme of things, it REALLY doesnt matter....

[Jamie]

Dave

Imagine me actually speaking those words to you in person.

I am sure you will then realise that the post was not as blunt as you first thought, but an observation, I too am just voicing a personal opinion here. (just because i am one of the Admin team does not exclude me from having one)

[daz]

My view is that POTW won't be going anywhere anytime soon.

[Psychobilly]

I have said it before an I will say it again hopefully for the last time - It's POW its not a competition there is no prize and the judges seem extremely capable at what they do...

I have been given it once and it was a great thrill and it does cause you to try and raise your game...in some ways that might be a bad thing as I now don't bother using some marginal imaging opportunities which I would have been out imaging in before...

POW did make me start thinking about submitting some of my images to SaN mag and I have been fortunate enough to have some published and thats another "thrill" usually shared by other imagers from SGL who some months seem to supply the majority of the "hotshots"...

I just enjoy sharing my pics warts and all...

Peter....

[ashenlight]

Personally, I really like the POTW aspect of SGL. Steve, you summed it up well with your point about the 'learning curve' - I see POTW as an opportunity to have a roundup of the progress people have made - for me, it really isn't a chance to 'see who is best' or to see who had the best image with the best/most expensive equipment. It's just an opportunity to give credit to people who have taken a cracking image - from a beautiful DSO, a widefield, or a heartwarming photo of two astronomers sharing knowledge and helping one another.

I've always just viewed POTW as 'a really great image.' I feel that suggesting POTW is in any way 'elitist' is damaging to the whole ethos of this forum. In my (limited) experience of the forum so far, it is friendly, casual, approachable - not in any way a 'civil war' between the elitist and the imaging 'lay people.' Let's not complicate POTW - it is fine as it is. Although, taking into account the sheer volume of images and imagers the forum has, perhaps Ron has a point about the 'vote' suggestion - if admins feel this is a viable option.

Amanda

[CELESCOPE]

No need for apologies Dave ,one thing i cant agree is that whatDean said that POW seems to be restricted to those with clear skies and no light pollution,if that were the case , ME !myself would be producing no images, take a look Dean at my web sites , i live in a very light polluted area,and can produce some pretty good results.

Guys you only have to look back at pastwinners , DSO , sketches , Planets , Lunar ,they are all in there so we do have a fair mix, albeit Ok Dso may lead the way.

Everyone knows its a hard job ,and Yes it does get hard at times, like Dave says the quality now is so darn good lol , but as Steve L pointed out , we the Judges look at progress as well , like this weeks winner Moocher , yes he has been imaging a fair while ,but i have seen his progress , and in my opinion ,he deserved POW THIS WEEK for that commitment he has put into his imaging .

I dont think changing the way we do it now ,will benifit, it would be to complicated and drawn out.

But thanks Dave for your thoughts ,and the other guys .

We will let it run , maybe one day things will change .

Best wishes

Rog

[ashenlight]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it

[Psychobilly]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it

Indeed ....

[Andrew*]

I think the POW still serves its purpose well, largely because of the competence of our hardworking judges, who always justify their choice appropriately and give credit to the most accomplished image, taking all factors into consideration.

Since I joined SGL, when POW was still POD, it has been my ambition to achieve POW. Unfortunately with current circumstances not allowing me much sky-time, I haven't had much opportunity to develop in my imaging, particularly as I am also an avid observer. However, since I began sketching, and having seen sketches win POW on multiple occasions, I still strive to reach this goal because I know I can do it. The fact that sketches (and startrails and bog-standard snapshots) can achieve POW proves that POW isn't elitist or orientated around the most advantaged (best skies, time or kit) imager.

I dont' believe I'm alone in being driven to improve by POW and therefore POW still serves a good purpose by uniting SGL to improve their skills and drive astro-imaging ever forward.

The only thing I think would benefit POW is dividing it up into sections to ease off the job of the individual judge who has to compare apples (e.g. lunar) with oranges (DSO).

Andrew

[Cloudwatcher]

Let me first say I am not a dedicated 'Imager' but I also think Ron is on the right tack........ not least because I voiced similar thoughts in an earlier thread ........ a sort of 'Peoples Choice' image of the week would give all members the chance to be involved.

[centroid]

Dave

Imagine me actually speaking those words to you in person.

I am sure you will then realise that the post was not as blunt as you first thought, but an observation, I too am just voicing a personal opinion here. (just because i am one of the Admin team does not exclude me from having one)

"I too am just voicing a personal opinion here"

Fair comment Jamie, and as is indeed your entitlement.

However, whether or not you intended the following to 'come across as it did, there is/was no other way it could be read/interpreted, I'm sorry to say. Old I may be, but a fool I'm not.

"Some how i don't think that the POW judges will take too kindly to being asked/told that the would be better off retired as judges just because someone doesn't see the value of SGL's POW any more....."

Anyway, its 'water under the bridge now', and best fogotten.

I really should have known better than to 'post' any opinion/suggestion relating directly to the forum, no matter how well meant and constructive, as it always provokes a very curt 'official' response.

I have met all of the Admin Team personally (and most of the Mods), and you are a nice bunch of guys. However, sometimes, when you 'sit' behind the 'cyber space' of the forum, its akin to the nice guy who gets behind the wheel of a car, and becomes something completley different.

With due respect.

Dave

[ashenlight]

Andrew, I believe you have summed up POW in a nutshell here. "I dont' believe I'm alone in being driven to improve by POW and therefore POW still serves a good purpose by uniting SGL to improve their skills and drive astro-imaging ever forward."

Not sure if I'm really qualified to comment on this thread, as I haven't submitted an image (well, just a couple of my dog and cat....) but I do feel the POW definitely serves as a way of uniting SGL, it lets those who are new to imaging see that their work is valued and enjoyed, and gives others something to strive for. In astronomy, which I, and I'm sure many others feel, is a constant learning curve, the drive to better yourself is the crux of the hobby - we always want to 'get on more DSO' (or simply in my case to learn to polar align the telescope...) Something which facilitates this desire to 'improve' on the imaging side of astronomy is an extremely positive thing. Steve said something like this earlier too, POW adds to the general 'feel' of SGL - somewhere people can come to improve, develop their skills and get feedback and help. It works. Let's leave it alone. You only have to read Rog's recent POTW thread to see what a positive addition it is to SGL.

Amanda

[themos]

It would be nice, for me, if there was a thread that one could look at and see all the candidate pics, one after another, without comments and discussion. Perhaps can be automated with a little box you can tick whenever you upload an image, to the effect "add me to the candidates list". I am a bit confused about limits of uploaded images: when people say "full size version here: (some off-SGL site)" is it the full size version that is judged or the SGL-hosted pic?

[Psychobilly]

Widefield pics in particular "suffer" when they are uploaded to the forum as a starfield is possibly one of the worst subjects possible for jpeg compression... thats why you soemtimes see hi-res version here... Large mosiacs suffer as well as you loose all the detail taking an image which may be 6k x 3k pixels or larger and drop it to what becomes say a 1200x600 "thumbnail"...

(Still in mourning for UKAstronomers which used to be brill for this)

Peter...

[FLO]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it

Nicely said