POW - a question

[George]

I think POW does have some value on these forums and would hate to see it go. I think the the picking of the POW is very balanced regardless of the kit it was taken with, like Steppenwolf said its a combination of skills and equipment that gets the shot.

In my case having the most expensive kit in the world will not overcome my LP and its always a challenge getting a decent image.

[Ford Prefect]

Just thought I would add that I find that there a two types of people, ones who want/like peer approval/praise and those that don't require it. POW provides those of us ( yes I include myself ) who enjoy praise to motervate us to improve but I fully appreciate not everyone is like me

Jon

[Tim]

Sheesh, we didnt know you all cared so much

By now it should be fairly clear that a PoW picture can be very simple and captured with minimal kit. In fact, the three images I have chosen to date have just been taken with a camera.

At some point SGL will reach saturation point and remain a more stable membership. At the moment though it is great to see the new members flocking in, and it's always nice to see some new pics from them.

I hope PoW will be around for some time yet! I'm pretty sure that i'll never get another one myself, but like SteveL, that doesn't mean i'm not gonna try

[daz]

I really should have known better than to 'post' any opinion/suggestion relating directly to the forum, no matter how well meant and constructive, as it always provokes a very curt 'official' response.

I have met all of the Admin Team personally (and most of the Mods), and you are a nice bunch of guys. However, sometimes, when you 'sit' behind the 'cyber space' of the forum, its akin to the nice guy who gets behind the wheel of a car, and becomes something completley different.

Sorry Dave, but I think you brought that on yourself.

Not sure where the sudden desire to see POTW end came from, but perhaps it would have been better to voice your thoughts in private, or put them differently.

As for us sitting behind the cyber space, I'm afraid I take offence to your last statement. We certainly don't go round trying to "run people over" (to continue your analogy). Instead we try to maintain the forum for all (close to) 4000 members, not just the 2900+ active ones, or the just the imagers. To have this thrown back (yet again!) is a bit of a ****-off to be honest.

[Greg]

Andrew, I believe you have summed up POW in a nutshell here. "I dont' believe I'm alone in being driven to improve by POW and therefore POW still serves a good purpose by uniting SGL to improve their skills and drive astro-imaging ever forward."

I have to agree there....

I don't class myself as an imager by any stretch of the imagination but I do like to take pictures of the night sky..

I've been luck to win POW twice (Many months ago!!) A moon pic and a widefield shot of Orion...I was chuffed to bits..The encouragement I received was fantastic.

True, the bar's been raised, therefore we must rise to the challenge..

I've taken a few pictures recently and thanks to TJ and SteveL they've shown me how to improve them and offered tips on how to start on the slippery slope!!

I enjoy POW, looking at some of those pictures helps me to set my sights on something to aspire to..

Just look how far SGL and we have all come..

A suggestion for the duffers like me...How about a "Most Improved Imager" Section.. Would that not tick all the boxes?

[Ant]

"I too am just voicing a personal opinion here"

I have met all of the Admin Team personally (and most of the Mods), and you are a nice bunch of guys. However, sometimes, when you 'sit' behind the 'cyber space' of the forum, its akin to the nice guy who gets behind the wheel of a car, and becomes something completley different.

Dave

I'm going to say very little on this, as I find that comment personally offensive.

I like POW, it's one of the few Picture of the Day/Week/Month/Year type awards (for the want of a better word) that can be won by anyone with almost any kit...

[FLO]

We could really do with a clear sky around about now....

[Helen]

Its clear here!!!

Helen

[steppenwolf]

It 'looks' clear here but I have a bad feeling that it is actually 'milky' - so hard to tell at dusk ....

[ashenlight]

It is looking beautiful here, he's hoping. Might try some afocal Moon action tonight.

[Jamie]

However, whether or not you intended the following to 'come across as it did, there is/was no other way it could be read/interpreted, I'm sorry to say. Old I may be, but a fool I'm not.

Dave

Dave, what a cleverly offensive chap you are!!!

So what you are saying with the "but a fool i'm not" statement is that its ok for your post to be misinterpreted but not mine?

Your post states the following (without misinterpretation)

So, given the committment of our PoW judges, their ever increasing PoW 'work load', and the similarity in quality of many images, is it not time to look at what 'added value', if any, PoW now actually provides to the forum?.

IMO, PoW has 'run its course', served its purpose, and the forum has now outgrown it.

Time perhaps to 'retire it, give give our heartfelt thanks to our stalwart judges, and relieve them of a burden, that IMO, no longer adds any value.

Dave

And you posted all that without firstly even trying to discus it with the guys that run POW....Nice one Dave...

I for one do not think i have misinterpreted your intentions with that post:rolleyes:

[blinky]

I have to say that I can see both sides of the discussion. The PoW is the highlight of my week on SGL, I look forward to seeing the image and the comments by the judges as to why it won. On the other hand it does seem that nowadays with a decent setup and a bit of patience it is reasonably easy to produce a good image. I have to say that sometimes I would find it very hard to choose a PoW due to the large number of outstanding images posted.

On balance then I would like to see it stay, as somebody else said in a previous posting it does seem to unite the forum......sometimes!

[beamish]

ooh look over there ! a really rare little bird I think ,in the tree over there ! yup over there.

Not very clear here !

Ps I'd like to see it stay too, but tend to regard it as SteveL suggested, as a measure of someone's improvement. More a pat on the back, congratulatory recognition of their hard work and progress-an award not a competition.

[CELESCOPE]

POWS staying folks ,so newbies get those images in ,we were all there once ,myself included,learnt from other imagers , proved to be just as good. as you all will be , and that goes for sketching as well , every thing is looked at .

Rog

[centroid]

Sorry Dave, but I think you brought that on yourself.

, but perhaps it would have been better to voice your thoughts in private, or put them differently.

As for us sitting behind the cyber space, I'm afraid I take offence to your last statement. We certainly don't go round trying to "run people over" (to continue your analogy). Instead we try to maintain the forum for all (close to) 4000 members, not just the 2900+ active ones, or the just the imagers. To have this thrown back (yet again!) is a bit of a ****-off to be honest.

Daz, I'm really sorry that you see it that way, but it happens, and I know that you are not so naive as to believe that it doesn't.

Nobody on this forum, least of all me, underestimates the 'behind the scenes' work that you admin guys (and mods) put in, to keep this now very large forum running as it does.

We all know that SGL is the best of the astro forums currently on the web, but nothing in life can be so perfect, as to never need reviewing. Something I'm sure that admin does as a matter of course.

Also, lets us not forget that while without the admin team , we the members would have no forum. Conversley, without the members, there is no forum either. The two are inextricably linked, and as such need to work together to make it successful.

In this respect, I like to think that I have contributed to this forum, as well as taking from it.

"Not sure where the sudden desire to see POTW end came from"

There is a valid reason for this concern, not personal, but that's all I will say on the matter.

"perhaps it would have been better to voice your thoughts in private, or put them differently"

Why

Are you saying that I should not have opened a perfectly valid discussion on PoW ?

It was not phrased in any way that could be construed as critical of SGL's admin. It was just my thoughts on the subject, aired openly on the forum, for discussion. It was neither contentious, nor 'trolling' by any stretch of the imagination.

So, what was so wrong, in that it warranted the the 'official' response' that it received, which has uiltimately lead us to where we are now.

Some of the membership responded with their views, the majority in favour of PoW. Albeit, I'm now aware that some members were too nervous to voice an opinion.

So, while I stand by my comment re curt responses, as it is an undeniable fact I cannot do otherwise, I will apologise for any personal offence taken.

Dave

[daz]

"Not sure where the sudden desire to see POTW end came from"

There is a valid reason for this concern, not personal, but that's all I will say on the matter.

Then surely the discussion is irrelevant, and for nothing??

[insomnia]

I am a relative newbie and i have been reading this thread for the last few hours. I could see how this was going to end up like i am sure the majority of other members.

There was only ever going to be 1 winner in this argument,

To some people astrophotography is more than a hobby, its a passion, and I can see how someone 'might' feel cheated because they feel that a less worthy photo has been chosen.

To me a worthy photo captures the moment. It might be 1 that takes hours to capture or it could be 1 that captures the excitement of a group of people around someones telescope.

A good photo tells an exciting story, whether it be a simple snap shot or a complicated deep space image.

[dark knight]

I think it's down to personal interpretation as the very term POTW can always be construed as a competition by some just by its very existence/nature, it will always bring a competitive edge out in a percentage of members who like the acclaim that goes with being awarded it (nearly said winning it then), but this needn't be a bad thing, as it also acts as an incentive, and that's exactly how I see it, as an incentive to better my skills and improve my images to a presentable standard. When a 350D beats some of the really expensive ccd's it gives me hope of what can be achieved with DSLR like my Nikon D80 and I must admit sometimes makes me smile, not because I begrudge the expensive camera's but because it shows expense doesn't have to make a difference and other factors are at play.

Hope I don't offend anyone and thanks to the persons who give up their spare time not only to make the award but provide valuable feed back that can then be used by the countless members of this site, your efforts are appreciated (not that your efforts were ever in question in this thread)..

carl

Carl

[CELESCOPE]

Thanks Carl thats much appreciated, to put everyone in the picture ,when i joined SGL ,there were only a couple of us that done any imaging, i remember just flooding the new created forum with loads of my images, and after a while a few more ppl got interested in imaging, as time moved on we started a few variations PICTURE OF THE DAY , found that was maybe to much , then Picture of the week, the whole intention of this ,was to get ppls interest and in my case more ppl imaging , as this is my love , i wanted it to be a big part of SGL ,so POW was born , and to this day it has grown and grown, and i hope as i have read the past comments ,been a valid help to all the up and coming imagers .but its not only imaging ,as we have seen , sketching is now included,and many other topics , true these are not as abundant as say DSOs ,but they all play a huge part of what SGL is all about .

And thats making PPLwelcome and enjoying they own particular interest with the hobby.

Thanks everyone

Rog

[Roy Batty]

I only chanced upon this thread late last night and having gone through its extensive length I didn't want to comment too quickly but slept on it;)

Personally I've never had a POW, but I must admit that early on (about 2 years ago) it did seem that the same "ususal suspects" came up each week on POW, so it may have been percieved of as a bit one sided in favour of established DSO imagers. It used to bother me a bit but like SteveL. said.. "In the grand scheme of things, it REALLY doesnt matter...." and he's right; I bet the only person who remembers they got a POW after a couple of weeks is the imager themself.

However, my perception of the situation has changed over time; there's loads more imagers now posting very high quality images and naturally the "bar" has been raised tremendously over that time. I think the POW judges have kept pace with this change and have brought a balanced breadth and depth to their judgements each week as images of all kinds have been selected. I for one like the inclusive format of POW, and find it both entertaing and informative, but that is not justification in itself to castigate Dave for merely discussing change.

There should not be "sacred cow" subjects, especially ones concerning purely the SGL format. I think it does some who have posted on this thread no favours to come across, however unintentional, as overtly precious on certain areas of discussion. After all a good idea (POW) is a good idea and it should stand up to robust debate.

With the advent of our new website is it possible to include within POW a voted for "peoples pic" which would go alongside that of the judges selection? Although, I'm not keen on "popularity" web votes where the results are viewable during the voting period. On occasion it maybe that the image is the same one, but that shouldn't be a barrier?

I think it's worth a go.

Keith

[CELESCOPE]

Hi Keith, thanks for your input. getting plenty of feed back on here now , as for the peoples choice , best i would say pop it in the suggestions section , so Admin can see it.

Rog:)

[MartinB]

I think the principles behind judging POW haven't changed. As judges we do consider the equipment being used however, certainly for DSO imaging, it is often the imagers with quite expensive kit that win out. However, that probably isn't what gets them POW, it is more likely that they have spent a long time on the image and got all the small details of tracking, focus, framing and processing well sorted. It just so happens that the more committed people become the more they spend, it is the committment that gets POW. There a good number of DSO POWs taken with DSLRs and relatively humble scopes.

I have been pretty determined not to dumb down POW to make it a "pat on the back" for effort. Sure, someones level of experience is a factor but if a relative novice wins POW they should know they have done it on merit and their image is fully worthy.

Dave is spot on in saying we have some problems judging POW now. On a reasonable week it takes me about 3 hours on a Sunday evening to do the job justice. This is something the team of judges needs to give some more thought to.

I think POW is very important to SGL but it's format isn't cast in tablets of stone. We have given a lot of thought to other ways of doing it but these all have problems of their own.

[Psychobilly]

Just a "personal" observation....

Provided you know how to use it more expensive and technically superior equipment will almost definitely allow you to produce better raw data .

The quality of the finished result will then depend upon the processing skills of the individuals or "collaborators" ...

Whilst not exactly at the budget basement end I cant see me moving on from my "humble" equipment anytime soon unless of course the 6 numbers come up...

In the mean time (or should that be lean time) I shall continue to try and wring every last pixel of performance out of what I have got...

Peter...

[roundycat]

I've been avoiding this like the plague because I'm not the most diplomatic of fellows but here's my take on it. Bottom line: pic of the week is a good idea if only because it's called a picture and not a capture! I had one once (POW that is) and ever since I wondered why I have not had more. Surely mine are better than anyone elses?

The issue of equipment used is a bit of a red herring. I have all that stupid signature stuff (that contains what people use right down to all their eyepieces even though they are only posting a picture) switched off, it is not relevant. Let me explain.

Before I moved I was a member of a very successful camera club for some time. I did a fair bit of winning in the Mono/Adv class. One night a newish member asked me what camera I used to take the winning picture.

I used FP4 I said, thinking it more important.

Yeah, but what camera?

I developed it in dilute Perceptol I said.

Yeah, but what camera?

It was a 35mm model.

Yeah, but what camera?

OK, I said; it was a Nikon F3 with a 55mm 2.8 Micro Nikkor.

Ah, he said and walked off.

I am absolutely certain he was no better off for knowing and if he rushed out and bought himself an F3 he probably would have been disappointed.

I like to think that the essence of a winning pic is in the knowledge and skill brought to the job by the photographer. I know people in lots of camera clubs that use crappy old gear and get really good results. They always have people thinking 'I have a better camera than that, why didn't I win?'

Two things should happen and yes, I am ready to start ducking the brickbats;

1 There should be no mention of what gear was used until the winner is decided and then the owner of it can write in and state what was used. I totally accept Martin's point above in that the more experienced, determined imager will likely have the more flashy gear (I fit all three qualifications) but it is all irrelevant. The picture is the thing that speaks and it should stand on its own.

2 All those people that write in and say "simply awesome picture" or "absolutely stunning" or "amazing, the best I've ever seen" should stop doing it. Unless, that is, it really is true. It cannot be true of every picture ever posted. When you see a barely recognisable galaxy surrounded by over sharpened haloed stars it should get the comments it deserves, not be subject to some sort of verbal orgasm of excessive praise.

There, I've said it. If you think I am being unfair look at the pictures on the NASA APOD site, I think it's NASA anyway and compare what we do with what the real leaders do. There generally is no comparison but we all have to work from the smudge covered UK.

The judges are doing a good job and should be congratulated for occasionally thinking out of the box. Let the picture speak and forget all the hype.

Dennis

[philsail1]

I see "Picture of the Week" section as being of great value - not just for the excellency of the images produced, but to inspire others to have a go at taking Astro photos anyway.

I'm just starting out with "Astrophotography" and use only a "simple" digicamera (I say simple, but even my humble Canon A570IS is a modern marvel of technology!).

As I have found, Astrophotography is a challenge, being a totally dfferent "ball game" from terrestrial photography.

Seeing all the photos on SGL (including POW) inspires me to aim for perfection in the "Afocal" shots I take.

I think POW should remain!

Regards,

philsail1