Building a quality "Wide" set of EPs – are Pan + ES82s the way to go?

[radiofm74]

Hello dear eyepiece gurus! 
 
I've been in the hobby enough that I lust to upgrade my (much-used) Baader "Classic Plössl/Ortho" sets. I'll turn 50 soon and my beloved wife has allowed a ≈1000€ budget for a "lifetime eyepiece set". Here are the basic parameters:
 
1) there may or may not be a fast dob/newt in my future – I have a R200SS which might be on the way out (see separate thread on this: https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/419573-help-with-f4-newton-what-does-this-star-test-show/) – but my key scopes for now are  C6, C8, 3" and 4" Vixen refractors (f/7.7 and f/9) and a smaller mostly photographic 70/420 ED refractor.
2) I travel to dark spots with light mounts, so I need to keep everything light and balanced: a set of 1.25" EPs ideally all weighting the same (I do have a 30mm UFF and 40mm Swan should the need arise, but I find myself using 2" EPs very seldom and almost never on my dark spot trips)
3) I want to trade long focal length (read 32 Plössl) for AFOV in order to achieve widefield. I've crunched the numbers and I think I want a 68° AFOV 24mm, then wider AFOV ≈ 14 - 9- 4.5. Seems right for exit pupils and magnification achieved. I might add a Barlow or a super-short eyepiece too. 
4) I do not wear glasses, though I do not dislike comfortable eye relief (not wanting to jam my eye in the 5mm eye relief of my 6mm Ortho is part of why I do this…).
5) For just this once, I think I'll buy new eyepieces. 
6) (I am in any case keeping the Baaders and for purely planetary/lunar I am also working on a set of Vixen LVs… that will be my secret, smaller gift to myself ;D)
 
Option 1 would be to buy a 24mm Panoptic and complement it with Explore Scientific 82° 14mm, 8.8mm, and 4.67mm. 
 
All the EPs are very light and weight about the same (210-250g), the field would be generous, eye relief reasonable, and I'm reading excellent things about these. And I won't deny that I'd be excited to get some green lettering… 
 
The 24mm might also be taken by an ES 68° 24mm, or an UFF 24mm… but they're both heavier than the others, and no green lettering ;D
 
Option 2 would be to go a little heavier (≈400g) and get the ES 68° 24mm (or UFF 24mm) with the Baader Morpheus "starter set" (14-9-4.5), which also includes a nice case.
 
What do you think? Does the thinking seem right, and are the options chosen good?
 
Thx for any feedback, especially from users of these eyepiece!

[Franklin]

Considering your love of Vixen, how about the SSW range? Online they have a bad press, though I don't know why, they are superb eyepieces. I sold my LVW collection and kept the SSW set which is complimented with a Pan 24 for low power.

[Moonlit Night]

I have a lot of time for ES 82 series eyepieces. I think they excellent eyepieces and very reasonably priced. I once owned a full set. You may notice all my gear is TeleVue, all of it. It’s a long and almost accidental story and nothing to do with anything remotely fan boy-ish. I would never buy anything new from TV, it’s just over priced and while they were absolutely the most innovative company back in the day there are other more re seasonable options out there these days. Have ES ripped off TV designs, probably. Have SW ripped off other designs, probably. Personally I think most of us would struggle to tell the difference between TV and ES in blind testing (yes I know that sounds ridiculous in a thread about optics). If I am honest I regret selling them and have often thought about selling the TV eyepieces I have and going back to ES.

Others will vehemently disagree, hey ho. 

Edited February 29 by Moonlit Night
Word missing

[radiofm74]

26 minutes ago, Franklin said:

Considering your love of Vixen, how about the SSW range? Online they have a bad press, though I don't know why, they are superb eyepieces. I sold my LVW collection and kept the SSW set which is complimented with a Pan 24 for low power.

I had missed those! I read a review that looks very promising! Plus it’s the right weight, parfocal…. Seems like a great option to consider. How do they compare in your experience to ES or others that may enter consideration? 

[radiofm74]

23 minutes ago, Moonlit Night said:

I have a lot of time for ES 82 series eyepieces. I think they excellent eyepieces and very reasonably priced. I once owned a full set. You may notice all my gear is TeleVue, all of it. It’s a long and almost accidental story and nothing to do with anything remotely fan boy-ish. I would never buy anything new from TV, it’s just over priced and while they were absolutely the most innovative company back in the day there are other more re seasonable options out there these days. Have ES ripped off TV designs, probably. Have SW ripped off other designs, probably. Personally I think most of us would struggle to tell the difference between TV and ES in blind testing (yes I know that sounds ridiculous in a thread about optics). If I am honest I regret selling them and have often thought about selling the TV eyepieces I have and going back to ES.

Others will vehemently disagree, hey ho. 

Thanks for sharing your experience. I am very attracted to the ES. I would also consider (and I do consider) a 68^ 24mm as a suitable replacement for the Pan, but the form factor is in favor of the Pan and if I can find one at a decent price (there seems to be a shortage) I think I’ll go for that one. But yes, other 24mm may come into play! 

[Franklin]

38 minutes ago, Moonlit Night said:

Others will vehemently disagree, hey ho. 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as they say. Some people use eyepieces to simply view through, whilst others like to test out every single nuance an optical design has to offer and compare with others, in their quest to find the ultimate optical system. Nothing wrong with either approach but when you consider limited observing time, due to weather etc. It makes sense to use your equipment rather than worrying over slight differences that in the real world of observation will only be splitting hairs.

[PeterC65]

I have mostly ES eyepieces and love them. The ES 68 degree 24mm is my most used eyepiece and I have the ES 82 degree 14mm, 8.8mm, 6.7mm and 4.7mm which all get plenty of use. They all give clear widefield views and mechanically they are well made and feel very robust. I find them easy on the eye in that it is easy to get my eye in then right place as the eye lenses are big, the eye relief is not too much or too little, and they are not fussy about eye placement. I also have the ES 52 degree 3mm which I don't like nearly as much (the field of view is too tight and the eye positioning can be tricky) but I keep for its very high magnification.

I can't say how the ES eyepieces compare with other makes, other that the Baader Zoom and Plossl's which I have also owned. Compared with these Baader eyepieces, I much prefer the ES eyepieces but that' probably a lot to do with their wider field of view. 

[John]

My choices are usually either Tele Vue or Pentax although lately I've added the excellent Svbony 3mm-8mm zoom to my 1.25 inch selection and it certainly seems to keep pace with the more expensive brands in that set. These are my 1.25 inch options:

24mm Panoptic, 19mm Panoptic

14mm Delos

10mm, 7mm, 5mm and 3.5mm Pentax XW

Svbony 3mm=8mm zoom

Nagler 2mm-4mm zoom

I'm very happy with this set now - mostly bought from the used market to make the £'s go a bit further !

I don't wear glasses when observing and I'm comfortable with eye relief down to around 8mm but a little more is nice.

There is some focal length duplication within the set so it could be reduced in number - I am a bit of an "ocularholic" 🙄

 

 

[Moonlit Night]

7 hours ago, radiofm74 said:

Thanks for sharing your experience. I am very attracted to the ES. I would also consider (and I do consider) a 68^ 24mm as a suitable replacement for the Pan, but the form factor is in favor of the Pan and if I can find one at a decent price (there seems to be a shortage) I think I’ll go for that one. But yes, other 24mm may come into play! 

Yeah I have owned the 24 mm too. I have read reports on CN about folks preferring the ES over the pan. I have owned both, but years apart and not side by side. The 68 series are often considered to be the best ES (along with the 90s) they produced. I owned both but apart from the FOV I couldn’t really choose between them 

[Moonlit Night]

7 hours ago, PeterC65 said:

I have mostly ES eyepieces and love them. The ES 68 degree 24mm is my most used eyepiece and I have the ES 82 degree 14mm, 8.8mm, 6.7mm and 4.7mm which all get plenty of use. They all give clear widefield views and mechanically they are well made and feel very robust. I find them easy on the eye in that it is easy to get my eye in then right place as the eye lenses are big, the eye relief is not too much or too little, and they are not fussy about eye placement. I also have the ES 52 degree 3mm which I don't like nearly as much (the field of view is too tight and the eye positioning can be tricky) but I keep for its very high magnification.

I can't say how the ES eyepieces compare with other makes, other that the Baader Zoom and Plossl's which I have also owned. Compared with these Baader eyepieces, I much prefer the ES eyepieces but that' probably a lot to do with their wider field of view. 

The 52 series are over sized plossls as far as I understand. They don’t get great press on the other channel…

Edited February 29 by Moonlit Night

[JTEC]

Bill Paolini’s comparison might be of interest with regard to choosing between the 24mm Pan and the ES68: https://www.cloudynights.com/articles/cat/user-reviews/24-26-mm-eyepiece-comparison-r2651

I have the 24mm 68, my only ES eyepiece, and like it. I really wouldn’t describe it as ‘heavy’.  🙂

Edited February 29 by JTEC

[John]

I had the ES 24 / 68 before I had the Panoptic 24. Not a lot between them in all honesty. 

[IB20]

Been thinking about getting a 24mm as an upgrade for the 25mm BST. But with having a 17.5mm Morpheus, I’m not sure it’s going to provide me with massive improvements in terms of fov increase. The 24mm SL UFF and ES68 24mm aren’t the most expensive eyepieces, however so maybe low risk to find out. 

[Moonlit Night]

I think the 24 mm is really a very safe bet. I liked mine a lot, I should probably ditch my 32 mm  plossl and buy one. TV plossls’ are very good mind. 

[Don Pensack]

Keep the 30mm UFF for low power, and supplement with:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/eyepiece-sets/baader-morpheus-eyepieces-set-with-case-six-eyepieces.html

and if needing only three, they're only £229 each, but a 17.5mm, 12.5mm, 9mm, 6.5mm, 4.5mm set would be a great addition to the 30mm for £1145

Alternately, a 14--9--6.5--4.5 set for £916.

 

[Moonlit Night]

27 minutes ago, Don Pensack said:

Keep the 30mm UFF for low power, and supplement with:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/eyepiece-sets/baader-morpheus-eyepieces-set-with-case-six-eyepieces.html

and if needing only three, they're only £229 each, but a 17.5mm, 12.5mm, 9mm, 6.5mm, 4.5mm set would be a great addition to the 30mm for £1145

Alternately, a 14--9--6.5--4.5 set for £916.

 

That is actually a very good call if you have the funds available.

[Mr Spock]

The Morpheus eyepieces are very popular. 

If I was going for a 24mm it would most likely be the UFF in the hope it was as good as the 30mm.

[inedible_hulk]

I have all the ES 82s except for the 30mm. The 24mm is a bit of a lump, but it hasn’t seen much use since I acquired a 30mm UFF. The others see regular use and I can’t fault them.

[radiofm74]

Thank you all for the food for thought! Given the availabilities and verified prices and availabilities I see in shops around me, I see basically these options:

1) The "230 g" route

- Pan 24 + a set of ES82° (14-8.8-4.7). That is (given prices around me) the cheapest and lightest option. Leaving my refractors aside for a moment, for someone who has to load a C8 on an Advanced Polaris, or if I can get it to work a R200SS on an APZ, weight is a key consideration. And in my market this is by quite a margin the cheapest option, believe it or not. The one concern I've read is short e.r. I do not wear glasses and have been schooled at the hard school of 10mm and 6mm Classic Orthos and did quite ok with them, but I do not mind a bit extra e.r.!

2) Same but with Vixen

- There is a reseller around me that has 14-9-5 Vixen SSW. The price is a bit higher than the ES but weight is still very limited and I think I understand e.r. a tad better. Worth considering! It'd be much the same concept and I'd still be in the budget.

3) Morpheus!

Dan's endorsement of the Morpheus makes me think. The "whole box" is not in my budget, but I could stay within it with a "starter set" (14-9-5), sold at a very attractive price in a shop a short train ride from here, and a UFF 24mm or ES68 24mm. I cannot "ditch" a 24mm widefield because my UFF 30 has a 2" and I want to be able to have the whole range in 1.25" format, especially for my SCTs.

My only concern is about the additional weight against the other option, or I think I'd have settled the debate already. I need to crunch some numbers re: OTA weight and mount payload.

Thank you all already. 

PS: I also get the impression that I cannot go FAR wrong with any of these options ;D

[John]

I tried all the Vixen SSW's a few years back. They were good but had some flaws particularly with regards to eye positioning and outer field performance I thought. Your mileage may vary of course 🙂

Vixen SSW Ultra Wide Angle Eyepieces: Review - Member Equipment Reviews - Stargazers Lounge

 

Edited February 29 by John

[radiofm74]

2 hours ago, John said:

I tried all the Vixen SSW's a few years back. They were good but had some flaws particularly with regards to eye positioning and outer field performance I thought. Your mileage may vary of course 🙂

Vixen SSW Ultra Wide Angle Eyepieces: Review - Member Equipment Reviews - Stargazers Lounge

 

What a wonderful review John, thank you!

[Space Hopper]

3 hours ago, radiofm74 said:

My only concern is about the additional weight against the other option, or I think I'd have settled the debate already. I need to crunch some numbers re: OTA weight and mount payload.

 

Yes, there are some big heavy eyepieces out there, some will cause balancing issues and will ask questions of how suitable your diagonal and focuser are.

4 hours ago, inedible_hulk said:

I have all the ES 82s except for the 30mm. The 24mm is a bit of a lump, but it hasn’t seen much use since I acquired a 30mm UFF. The others see regular use and I can’t fault them.

This one from ES was certainly 'a bit of a lump' ! 😀

 

[Highburymark]

Having tried most of the major wider field lines over the years, with the exception of ES I must admit, I don’t think you can go wrong with XWs from 10mm to 3.5mm, Morpheus for the ‘teens’, and a Panoptic 24. Proven favourites with many experienced observers. 

[radiofm74]

5 hours ago, Highburymark said:

Having tried most of the major wider field lines over the years, with the exception of ES I must admit, I don’t think you can go wrong with XWs from 10mm to 3.5mm, Morpheus for the ‘teens’, and a Panoptic 24. Proven favourites with many experienced observers. 

That'd indeed be a dream eyepiece kit, but I've checked prices and unless I find a good discount it'd set me back about 1400€. 

My provisional determination is: I'll go home, weight again my own C8 with its accessories (finders and diagonal). If it is within ≈5.6kg (= the payload of my lightest mount minus the weight of a Morph) I'll go straight for the Morpheus "starter set" and add an ES 68° 24mm or UFF 24mm (more the ES given that it weights exactly as much as the Morphs guaranteeing best balance when I swap eyepieces). The test will be valid also for the R200SS, in case I'll keep it, which weights a smidge less than the C8 while being physically much larger. 

This has become Option A, and based on availabilities and pricing in shops around me, it's within budget with the added perk that a case is included with enough room to accommodate my UFF 30mm 2" for the times I want to play with the refractors. It's not lost on me that Morphs have a 1.25"/2" barrel, so for those times I'll be able to use my whole set without having major rebalancing problems (the UFF is ≈200g heavier) and without having to swap in and out the 1.25/2 adapter, which I'll simply keep screwed onto the 24mm.

I'll be a little sorry not to get the Pan 24 – I had gotten a little romantically involved with the idea – but indeed, as many have pointed out, the whole set will likely serve me better. That I love my little Baaders and have grown to respect that brand very much is an added green light… 

[F15Rules]

+1 for Morpheus option. Great eyepieces, hard to fault. The 14mm has minor field curvature, but much less than the Pentax XW14 which I sold having tried the Morpheus.

My main set now is Vixen LVWs, but that's another story..no longer made, and rare as hen's teeth secondhand.

Go for the Morpheus set!👍😁

Dave