New(ish) Cheap all sky camera option!

[powerlord]

Raspberry Pi added a new camera module at the beginning of the year - 'Camera 3' - imx708 12mp sensor with autofocus. While the autofocus is not really relevant, it is quite a decent camera and can take long exposures unlike modules 1 and 2 making is quite suitable for all sky night work.

Thomas Jacquin's excellent allsky pi software works with it from May or so this year:

https://github.com/thomasjacquin/allsky

You do need to add one tweek to the config to disable the autofocus, and focus it at stars manually (set by trial and error, but should be more or less as below):

--autofocus-mode manual --lens-position 10.19

Which I found out for myself, and Thomas will be updating docs in the next few days - so looks like I'm the first to do this.

Anyway, the benefit over using an HQ camera (or asi120, etc) is:

1. much cheaper since it comes with 120 degree lens

2. a purpose build enclose is available for it which would not fit the HQ. Plus this is a big win over making yer own - I tried my best to make a sealed enclosure for my asi120MC-S based one, but after 6 months or so, it had started to dew up inside - and I really didn't want to have to start doing dew heaters, etc.

The cons:

1. It is only 120 degrees. So if you want 180 degrees look elsewhere. For me, 120 gets me most of the sky I can see, and as it's for cloud cover mainly and pretty star videos secondarily thats fine.

2. prob more noise at night that HQ, but  to be honest so far in my quick test last night the results are MUCH better than the ASI120MC-S I was using before.

So what does it cost and what do you need:

Pi wise, it will run on the Zero 2 W, just about. You will need to take less pics, and experiment a bit to see what videos, etc it can create each day with it's limited CPU - but it will work. Currently in stock at pi hut and 17 quid. Alternatively if you want more pics, more videos, quicker web, etc - get a pi4 for 35 quid. Both in stock now.

https://thepihut.com/products/raspberry-pi-zero-2

https://thepihut.com/products/raspberry-pi-4-model-b

Camera: wide camera 3 (note there is also a version without IR filter - not got this to try, but might be even better for allsky work?)

36 quid

https://thepihut.com/products/raspberry-pi-camera-module-3?variant=42305752072387

This is vs an HQ which is 52 quid, and then you'd need a lens - probably another 20 quid. So saving 35 quid or so here.

And the camera enclosure - this wouldn't work with HQ or any other camera - asi, etc - this is the real benefit of going the camera 3 route.

36.50 quid

https://thepihut.com/products/entaniya-waterproof-case-for-raspberry-pi-camera-modules

This is a really well designed bit of kit - multiple seals, desicant inside - it really should be air tight.

water proof pi zero case (well small case - nowt specially pi zero really). For pi4, seems pi hut don't do one, but nip into screwfix and you'll get a waterproof junctionbox for around the same price which will fit a 4 easy - I'm just using a project box I had lying around.

8.70

https://thepihut.com/products/flanged-weatherproof-enclosure-with-pg-7-cable-glands

power supply for the pi:

9 quid

https://thepihut.com/products/raspberry-pi-psu-uk

I'll assume you've got an SDcard kicking around to use.

So total:

17

36

36.50

8.70

9.00

------

107.20 with Pi Zero 2

or ~128 quid with pi 4 (and assuming you source your own waterproof pi enclosure (screwfix, etc) - camera one is fine of course.

There are maybe cheaper options, but this is getting you a camera that can shoot up to 200 second stills (I find 60 seconds is giving me very clear bright sky and stars with very low noise), and a multipurpose computer out in the garden - so a fiver to add a rain sensor and a bit of python gets you a rain sensor alerter as well, etc, etc

And it will be generating lovely quality 4k 30fps daily videos, Keograms and Startrails. And it comes with a public web server as well as the admin interface, so you can make your website available to the unwashed public should you wish!

I'm still letting the silicon sealing dry on mine, and the tests I've done have just been pointing camera out the window, so can't post many pics just now, but here is mine assembled (well open just now) - I'm using a pi4 as I had one already and want to add rain sensor, and other stuff to it, so makes sense to have spare cpu power for the sake of 17 quid extra. note: The heat sink gets mildly warm in use only - I'd imagine you probably don't need it.

stu

[happy-kat]

Very useful post, given me yet more ideas, I wonder if a noir 2 is sensitive enough as have one already and I could try with what I have. 

[Stuart1971]

Great write up.

‘I built one with the V2 HQ camera a while ago and has worked extremely well with the 3D printed enclosure, and the PI zero 2

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Stuart1971

[powerlord]

well, Thomas doesn't recommend the 1 or 2. 

7 minutes ago, happy-kat said:

Very useful post, given me yet more ideas, I wonder if a noir 2 is sensitive enough as have one already and I could try with what I have. 

I think the 2 (imx219) is limited to 11 secs max exposure which might not help. But, hey - try it - you never know.

[powerlord]

2 minutes ago, Stuart1971 said:

Great write up.

‘I built one with the V2 HQ camera a while ago and has worked extremely well with the 3D printed enclosure, and the PI zero 2

 

Is that with Thomas's software Stuart, or something else ? Originally, with the asi120mc-s version I made I was trying to original zero - increased the swap space, etc - and it did just about work, but it was cpu maxed all the time, and videos took 6 hours+ do create so was not practical. I did buy a Zero 2 W to try, but in the end, just thought why bother and stuck with the 4 for flexibility. Thomas still doesn't recommend the Zero 2 unless you absolutely have no option, but I'd have thought it will work, just need tweaking like the zero did - more swap space, less image taking. maybe lower res videos, etc.

[powerlord]

Oh, I will post some pics of it in action - or maybe even publish the website if I can be bothered. Should be up by tonight once the silicone sets 🙂

[Stuart1971]

Just now, powerlord said:

Is that with Thomas's software Stuart, or something else ? Originally, with the asi120mc-s version I made I was trying to original zero - increased the swap space, etc - and it did just about work, but it was cpu maxed all the time, and videos took 6 hours+ do create so was not practical. I did buy a Zero 2 W to try, but in the end, just thought why bother and stuck with the 4 for flexibility. Thomas still doesn't recommend the Zero 2 unless you absolutely have no option, but I'd have thought it will work, just need tweaking like the zero did - more swap space, less image taking. maybe lower res videos, etc.

Yes, the same Thomas software you are using…

I did have issues at the start, and had to tweak a few things, it creates the time lapse and the star trails image ok, but if I turn the keogram on too it can give me issues…

 

[powerlord]

just completed the dark frames, and getting some stars before the clouds come in.

[Paul M]

A very timely thread!

I'm currently in the latter stages of thinking about planning an all sky camera. Been wanting one for years but never got round to it.

My plan is to utilise my trusty old ASI178MC camera. I've used it on a tripod with the included lenes and been happy with the results.  I've been eyeing up this case, the full case kit, unassembled option : https://www.dewcontrol.com/All_Sky_Camera_Enclosure/p3099125_20689629.aspx. But now I really like that little enclosure for the Pi Camera! 

I did have a RasPi 4 going spare but that's recently been reborn as a server for another project.

So my planned costs are a bit more than the list above. I currently have a fetish for PoE devices and envisaged getting a PoE hat for the yet-to-be-bought Pi. The down side is I'm struggling to find a sufficiently rated PoE hat to power everything, without frying.

My ASC would almost certainly live at our Luxury Cumbrian Villa, so long periods of being left to look after itself. Dark sky but a lot of overhanging trees at the rear, where I'd get least domestic friction for placing it. There is nowhere at home with an all-round view of the sky that wouldn't involve ladders and masts. Been there done that. I don't do ladders these days. 

 

[powerlord]

Need to increase the video bit rate, and cloudy last night - ignore start bit as was faffing about with different settings. Actual images are very crisp. No noise, sharp stars and vastly better than asi120.

I've changed video bit rate to 10x this was tonight, and will post that as well as an old one from asi120.

But very happy with camera 3 performance.

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by powerlord

[powerlord]

So here's last night's with a decent bitrate in 4k.. pretty pleased with that. I'm gonna change config to make it save day pics as well.

 

 

[Stuart1971]

44 minutes ago, powerlord said:

So here's last night's with a decent bitrate in 4k.. pretty pleased with that. I'm gonna change config to make it save day pics as well.

 

 

Looks good, i have updated mine to the new version of the software as it was quite old what I was using, and TBH I don’t find the images as good, either very blue of very green, I have it running now in daytime and looks ok, but at night was not good at all, and it used to be great… my focus is a bit off to ATM

also how do you get it to display the full year of 2023 as mine only displays 23, see image below..

 

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by Stuart1971

[powerlord]

I'm using the new overlay module. There's an editor then that u use to stick what you want where.

[Stuart1971]

Took me a while to get the text nice and neat in the top left corner, as it was all overlapping….

And the image flipped to correct orientation…getting there slowly…

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by Stuart1971

[Budgie1]

I've been looking at getting an All Sky Cam for a while and finally took the plunge after reading this thread, so thanks Stu!

So, I've ordered the RPI 4 with 4GB RAM, the wide angle Module 3 camera, waterproof enclosure and POE HAT type D. I can get an enclosure locally and already have a suitable SD card.

I wanted to run it using POE as I don't have good WiFi in the Obsy, not good enough to connect to this anyway, but I do have an IP SkyCam on the house which is powered using POE. So I'm going to replace that camera with the All Sky Cam, so it's accessible from in side the house.

It was ordered today, so it should arrive sometime this week and I'll hopefully be in a position to put it up next weekend. Although it'll be a learning curve as I've no experience with RPI's or Linux, so it could be interesting.

 

[powerlord]

12 hours ago, Budgie1 said:

I've been looking at getting an All Sky Cam for a while and finally took the plunge after reading this thread, so thanks Stu!

So, I've ordered the RPI 4 with 4GB RAM, the wide angle Module 3 camera, waterproof enclosure and POE HAT type D. I can get an enclosure locally and already have a suitable SD card.

I wanted to run it using POE as I don't have good WiFi in the Obsy, not good enough to connect to this anyway, but I do have an IP SkyCam on the house which is powered using POE. So I'm going to replace that camera with the All Sky Cam, so it's accessible from in side the house.

It was ordered today, so it should arrive sometime this week and I'll hopefully be in a position to put it up next weekend. Although it'll be a learning curve as I've no experience with RPI's or Linux, so it could be interesting.

 

its pretty straight forward - download the latest pi img, stick it on sd card, boot it up.

To connect to it first time to do this, you can connect monitor, keyboard and all that jaz, but if you want to avoid that and just VNC to it, you should be able to VNC to it's default hostname - which over local network will be raspberrypi.local

you want to give it a personal hostname  (edit /etc/hostname) and you can then access it remotely via VNC. i.e. mine is allsky, so I can then access within my network via allsky.local as the name.

then everything is remote - update the pi, and follow thomas/eric's excellent docs to install and configure allsky

 

[tooth_dr]

On 26/10/2023 at 21:30, Paul M said:

My plan is to utilise my trusty old ASI178MC camera. I've used it on a tripod with the included lenes and been happy with the results.

I use a 178MM-cool as my ASC but am considering changing to the type posted above, to free up the camera for use on a scope. However it is an excellent performer with the 1.55mm F2 lens so I’m a little hesitant.

 

[Paul M]

11 minutes ago, tooth_dr said:

I use a 178MM-cool as my ASC but am considering changing to the type posted above, to free up the camera for use on a scope. However it is an excellent performer with the 1.55mm F2 lens so I’m a little hesitant.

 

I've not used my 178mc for a long time but I've been thinking about using it for planetary imaging on my RC250. Should be good in the right hands but, experience shows that mine aren't the right hands!

Whereas, I'm sure an ASC would be more within my skill set.

[Stuart1971]

12 minutes ago, tooth_dr said:

I use a 178MM-cool as my ASC but am considering changing to the type posted above, to free up the camera for use on a scope. However it is an excellent performer with the 1.55mm F2 lens so I’m a little hesitant.

 

I have just ordered the new camera / lens combo as mention above, to replace my AllSky camera, but it is only a 120 degree angle, so not sure how much sky I will lose from my current 170 degree one….but I am hoping it will be ok, as I like the autofocus idea, as mine is a pain to focus and it seems to have to be re done every 6 months or so, not sure why…

[tomato]

On 28/10/2023 at 12:26, powerlord said:

So here's last night's with a decent bitrate in 4k.. pretty pleased with that. I'm gonna change config to make it save day pics as well.

 

 

Nice one, I love the great white shark that appears just right of bottom centre at 0.05 seconds in....👍

[powerlord]

4 hours ago, Stuart1971 said:

I have just ordered the new camera / lens combo as mention above, to replace my AllSky camera, but it is only a 120 degree angle, so not sure how much sky I will lose from my current 170 degree one….but I am hoping it will be ok, as I like the autofocus idea, as mine is a pain to focus and it seems to have to be re done every 6 months or so, not sure why…

I assume you mean so you can adjust remotely ? Just checking you know it won't actually autofocus on stars - as per my initial posts above. But yeh - at least if it goes off for some reason, you can adjust remotely by playing with setting above.

120 wise - I was previously just using the allsky lens that comes with zwos which is 120 anyway - and tbh my view of sky has woods on one side, houses on others - you can see neighbours tree in south too for example.

Also, the camera 3 is quite 'long' with 16:9 aspect vs most astro cameras 4:3 formats - that can either be good or bad depending on the slot of the sky you want. I oriented mine long ways N-S. I imagine the 120 degrees is a diagonal, so your getting less on the short side, more on the long side.

calculating I put it at 113 degrees long side, 80 on the short side.

Or to put it in AZs - above 60 degrees E/W above 45 degrees or so N/S ?

 

[Tomatobro]

The last all sky  I built with an RPi and HD camera use meteotux software and it worked well. I have built a few and I learned early on that the lens quality is everything

Edited October 30, 2023 by Tomatobro
extra picture added

[powerlord]

just a heads up though, there's a seller selling HQ cameras for 24 quid new on ebay:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/314843921410

That does have the benefit that if you get a 170/180 degress lens you could get a full sky - albeit, no remote focusing, and won't fit into the enclosure I've posted about, etc.

and wee cctv 170 degree lens are only about a fiver:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/155815657826

 

[happy-kat]

I have a noir 2 and the night vision camera, I am temped to take the lens off one and see if I can stick another lens on top I have a ZWO 120 lens.

[powerlord]

So, yesterday the first time sky clear enough to actually see stars for any length of time - so here's the video (200mb as it's 4k) and the keogram: