Which camera?

[Astro74]

Hi I’m venturing into AP and would like to know if I’d be better with a dslr or an Astro cam like a Zwo 120 ? 
 

if it’s a dslr - which one would be best, I’d like something simple and easy to use Jo too high tech 

 

thanks 

[barbulo]

What branch of AP, lunar/planetary or deep sky? Different equipment and techniques.
ASI120 is commonly used for guiding. Perhaps it’s valid for planetary. Don’t know. 
For DSO, starting with a DSLR is the way to go. 

[ONIKKINEN]

Budget?

Cooled (or not) astro cams are not so obscenely expensive anymore, how much you want to spend and what use the camera will get (DSO/solar system) will determine if a DSLR or an astro camera is the way to go.

[Astro74]

4 minutes ago, barbulo said:

What branch of AP, lunar/planetary or deep sky? Different equipment and techniques.
ASI120 is commonly used for guiding. Perhaps it’s valid for planetary. Don’t know. 
For DSO, starting with a DSLR is the way to go. 

Nebula- DSO is my area of interest 

many recommendations very welcome - thank u 

[Astro74]

27 minutes ago, ONIKKINEN said:

Budget?

Cooled (or not) astro cams are not so obscenely expensive anymore, how much you want to spend and what use the camera will get (DSO/solar system) will determine if a DSLR or an astro camera is the way to go.

I have not set a budget and never have with this hobby over the last 12 years - my view is “buy cheap/wrong and buy twice” so I never limit myself ..within reason 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Astro74

[barbulo]

As mentioned by ONIKKINEN, your budget is important: from a DSLR (couple of hundreds if not already own one) to several thousands for a state-of-the-art mono cam with nice filters. 

[ONIKKINEN]

Is this too much?

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/zwo-cameras/zwo-asi-585mc-usb-3-camera.html

This would be the cheapest entry in to the dedicated astronomy cam world, unless you find a good deal on an older used camera. Its not all roses however, you have less than half the sensor size and so also field of view compared to crop sensor DSLRs, but performance is likely to be much better.

If you want to go cheaper than that then a second hand DSLR/mirrorless would probably work better.

Next in line for dedicated astronomy cameras would be the 533: https://www.firstlightoptics.com/zwo-cameras/zwo-asi-533mc-pro-usb-30-cooled-colour-camera.html

Getting expensive now though. Only goes up from here 😬.

[Astro74]

Dslr - which model would you advise for a beginner 

[Elp]

Are you going to use sidereal on your mount or autoguide?

[Astro74]

3 minutes ago, Elp said:

Are you going to use sidereal on your mount or autoguide?

Auto guide cam Zwo 120 mini 

[alacant]

4 minutes ago, Astro74 said:

which model

Any eos with the 18mp sensor works well for astro.

Cheers 

[Elp]

A DSLR would be the most straightforward as you don't need a computer for image capture. You will however yearn for an astro camera very quickly wondering what you're missing out on (that would be better sensitivity especially if it's mono, and less noise, esp colour noise if it's OSC which becomes problematic to post process out). Generally, most images also go through post processing, that's where all the work is to make an image pop. If you do go dslr, maybe get mirrorless as they'll be quieter (if you have consideration for neighbours), otherwise nothing wrong with dslr (a IR modded one).

Edited February 1, 2023 by Elp

[Astro74]

Thanks guys 👍🏼

[rnobleeddy]

If you're talking about picking up a second hand modded DSLR for ~£150 then I think that's still a very valid route to get started.  An 18MP Canon such as the 550D is a good shout.

If you were thinking of paying more for that kind of camera from a business, I'd probably suggest looking at the second hand market for a dedicated astro camera. CCDs have largely been superseded so there are some well priced CCDs available, and previous gen CMOS cameras like the 1600MC, at very good prices.

Just take some time to make sure you're getting a fair price - either by looking at closed ads here, or on astrobuysell, or on ebay.

[ollypenrice]

Fair warning: I'm often a lone voice on this topic but I always say, Absolutely not a DSLR unless you are cash-strapped. If you can run to a cooled astro CMOS with a reasonably sized chip, then this will roundly beat a DSLR. It will need a PC so, if that's a problem, forget it. On the other hand, managing capture with a decent sized preview and focusing aids makes life far easier. In the days of CCD the dedicated cameras were way more expensive than DSLRs but now, with CMOS, astro cameras are both better and cheaper.

Olly

[pipnina]

12 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

Fair warning: I'm often a lone voice on this topic but I always say, Absolutely not a DSLR unless you are cash-strapped. If you can run to a cooled astro CMOS with a reasonably sized chip, then this will roundly beat a DSLR. It will need a PC so, if that's a problem, forget it. On the other hand, managing capture with a decent sized preview and focusing aids makes life far easier. In the days of CCD the dedicated cameras were way more expensive than DSLRs but now, with CMOS, astro cameras are both better and cheaper.

Olly

I was skeptical about this the last time the topic was brought up but I feel like I am much more inclined to agree with you now. Many of the smaller sensor zwo cameras are actually very capable even without cooling, and can even be price competitive with modern mirror less cams that aside from sensor real estate will produce worse images... I can't remember the model numbers exactly but I think it is the ASI 533, 585 ETC that are uncooled, a bit small but don't break the bank and have good sensitivity and noise characteristics... Despite the idea of wasting imaging circle area by not being able to record it, after thinking about it, your simple statement of "4x sensor area doesn't mean much if it's four times as much rubbish" has pretty much won me over at least.

As you say as well, astro cam costs have plummeted at the low end while quality has shot up.

 

The only thing I'll say for you Astro74 though is that I can't recommend trying the zwo120 for deep sky, as it really is only geared up for guiding, has poor noise compared to other cams, and at a gain level where noise is not at CCD levels, the full well capacity is well below 1kev, whereas most of the other cams like I mention above I think have lower read noise and full wells around 10kev+ at those low noise gain settings. Much easier to get a clean picture without having to

12 hours ago, Astro74 said:

Hi I’m venturing into AP and would like to know if I’d be better with a dslr or an Astro cam like a Zwo 120 ? 
 

if it’s a dslr - which one would be best, I’d like something simple and easy to use Jo too high tech 

 

thanks 

resort to super short exposures.

Also, I can't seem to move the quote block on my phone, so I guess it lives there now haha. Sorry!

[catburglar]

I’m not a dedicated imager, although I dabbled a few years ago. I think I’m with @ollypenrice on this.

If you already own a DSLR, or want to use it for daytime photography or want a light/mobile/star tracker type platform then DSLR may be the best option.

But, in your earlier post you suggested that you didn’t want to fall into the “buy cheap/buy twice” trap- and I suspect buying a DSLR would be that trap.

There’s lots of technical stuff in astrophotography irrespective of which camera you use. Finding your way around a dedicated astrocamera is unlikely to be the most difficult bit😜.

[ollypenrice]

2 minutes ago, catburglar said:

Finding your way around a dedicated astrocamera is unlikely to be the most difficult bit😜.

Agreed, and I think it's probably easier than finding your way around a DSLR for astronomical use.

Olly

[AstroMuni]

1 hour ago, ollypenrice said:

Absolutely not a DSLR unless you are cash-strapped.

I will second that. When I started on this journey, the fact that I didnt own a DSLR helped me be less biased to one or the other. Once you realise that the sensor technology is the same in DSLR & Astro cameras & that the sensors in Astro cameras are more sensitive, then it helps in making the decision. 

[ollypenrice]

14 minutes ago, AstroMuni said:

I will second that. When I started on this journey, the fact that I didnt own a DSLR helped me be less biased to one or the other. Once you realise that the sensor technology is the same in DSLR & Astro cameras & that the sensors in Astro cameras are more sensitive, then it helps in making the decision. 

Same for me. I also took the advice of Ian King who basically said, just go straight into mono CCD. I was up and running in no time despite the fact that, back in those distant days, I had hardly any computer skills and no forum help as there is today. (We were on dial up.)

Olly

[pipnina]

44 minutes ago, AstroMuni said:

I will second that. When I started on this journey, the fact that I didnt own a DSLR helped me be less biased to one or the other. Once you realise that the sensor technology is the same in DSLR & Astro cameras & that the sensors in Astro cameras are more sensitive, then it helps in making the decision. 

Strictly speaking I think many of the new CMOS astrocams are the same as the astrocams sensor wise. Many astrocams literally use the same sensor as a consumer camera on shelves today. The difference comes from the amplifiers (don't see many consumer or even professional mirrorless/DSLR cameras with 16-bit ADC...), and the software in the onboard computer, plus the absence of ir-filtering sensor windows.

For all intents and purposes, a new mirrorless camera from sony would perform the same as an uncooled ASI2600MC without the ir filter and dodgy processing done onboard, sadly the consumer cameras are insistant on things like raw file tampering (mistaking stars for hot pixels), so even if you modify them they still come out lesser than the 2600MC will.

I think the difference between CCD/CMOS astrocams and DSLRs was more prominent however, back when these sensors suffered from much more noticable dark current and brighter hot pixels. Even if I don't cool my RisingCam 571, and it runs as +5 or even +10c, I don't notice any intrusive dark current like I did with my old Nikon D3200. Strong dark current in older sensors paired with a lack of cooling I think makes the bulk of the older DSLR's struggles with astro.

Now of course, a lot of people are using these cheaper uncooled zwo cameras with a good deal of success and not seeing much dark noise at all.

I do feel like traditional camera makers COULD demolish the current astro camera makers with simple changes if they wanted to, like having a pure-raw setting (zero software involvement or post processing) and having the IR filters cutoff point moved to say 680nm instead of 650, which as I understand is just a holdover from the film days where you needed to make the film insensitive to deep reds so you could see the film you were processing during development?

Maybe the 533mc  or 585 would be a good starting point for Astro74? Low noise, high QE, dark current is relatively low even in outdoor summer temps (around 20c at night in the uk?). And also very cheap (by new camera standards)

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/zwo-cameras/zwo-asi-533mc-colour-usb-30-camera.html

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/zwo-cameras/zwo-asi-585mc-usb-3-camera.html

[Chris-h]

Now, I am not a great DSO imager by a long shot, but here is a quick comparison for you. Both were taken with a Samyang 135mm lens and the same 3 min subs.

1st image was taken with a QHY183C Cooled cam through RGB filters, 2nd one was taken with a ZWO ASI585MC uncooled cam. The fov is much smaller, but the cheap cam does well. But I only spent 135 minutes on the RGB image (3x45min) VS 5 hours(!) on the color image 🤪 And this is a broadband target. Even with the great dual-band on the marked these days, I think I would struggle when it comes to the asi585 camera. I will probably do a test at one point though, so I might be wrong! 🙃

 

Edited February 2, 2023 by Chris-h

[Astro74]

3 hours ago, pipnina said:

I was skeptical about this the last time the topic was brought up but I feel like I am much more inclined to agree with you now. Many of the smaller sensor zwo cameras are actually very capable even without cooling, and can even be price competitive with modern mirror less cams that aside from sensor real estate will produce worse images... I can't remember the model numbers exactly but I think it is the ASI 533, 585 ETC that are uncooled, a bit small but don't break the bank and have good sensitivity and noise characteristics... Despite the idea of wasting imaging circle area by not being able to record it, after thinking about it, your simple statement of "4x sensor area doesn't mean much if it's four times as much rubbish" has pretty much won me over at least.

As you say as well, astro cam costs have plummeted at the low end while quality has shot up.

 

The only thing I'll say for you Astro74 though is that I can't recommend trying the zwo120 for deep sky, as it really is only geared up for guiding, has poor noise compared to other cams, and at a gain level where noise is not at CCD levels, the full well capacity is well below 1kev, whereas most of the other cams like I mention above I think have lower read noise and full wells around 10kev+ at those low noise gain settings. Much easier to get a clean picture without having to

resort to super short exposures.

Also, I can't seem to move the quote block on my phone, so I guess it lives there now haha. Sorry!

Sorry yes should of been a little clearer my 120 is the guide cam 👍🏼

[AstroMuni]

2 hours ago, Chris-h said:

Both were taken with a Samyang 135mm lens and the same 3 min subs.

Good comparison 👍

[AstroMuni]

2 hours ago, pipnina said:

I do feel like traditional camera makers COULD demolish the current astro camera makers with simple changes if they wanted to,

The astro camera market is very low volume and niche, hence the big names would not be interested in this market. And chip manufacturers like Sony are getting their sales anyway without actually manufacturing astro cams.