Eq5 mount why so seemingly difficult to setup?

[reddish75]

Why are these mounts so difficult to setup and align! I've looked at the videos and still I'm not getting it. If someone could treat me like a complete simpleton and guide me through it with pictures if possible? 

Thanks

Chris

 

[SmokeyJoe]

Hi Chris, I assume you are talking about polar alignment.  I used have the same problem.  Then I bought one of these

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/sky-watcher-mount-accessories/polar-illuminator-for-eq3-2eq5-mounts.html

Made life easier. 

It wasn't until I bought an asiair and camera that it became a doddle. 

[Elp]

Although it's not necessary, a computer polar alignment routine helps a lot, no bone or muscle breaking contortion required.

[Elp]

1. If possible setup the tripod on a flat surface. When the legs are splayed check the tripod is level either with an in built level or a separate spirit level.

2. Make sure the mount head (the equatorial bit you put the scope onto) is secured onto the tripod. The telescope dovetail saddle (also declination axis) should be directly on top of the mount in line with it and pointing north (so your whole mount will be orientated north). If your counterweight bar and weight are connected into the mount the bar should be pointing directly to the ground but at an angle depending on your mount angle altitude setting. The altitude (up/down angle orientation should match, or make up the difference subtracted from 90 degrees depending on your actual location in latitude (eg, if you're at 50 degrees north, your angle/altitude of the mount will either be set at 50 degrees or (90-50=40) 40 degrees depending on how it's labelled). You will know if it off because if you look for Polaris (north star easily found by cross referencing the big dipper and on the opposite side Cassiopeia), and imagining your scope pointing directly at Polaris the mount will be either too high or too low in altitude angle, or too left or right of it.

3. Use a polar scope to get Polaris into the centre of the polar scope by making minor altitude (up down angle) and azimuth (left right) adjustments to the mount via their respective screw adjustments. Polaris actually lies on a point around the small circle on the reticule of the polar scope, but for basic polar alignment you can just get it dead centre.

4. Lock everything down. Make sure the payload is all secured, you should also load everything onto the mount before levelling and polar aligning as any physical touch to the setup afterward can knock it out of alignment unless you're using a tank like heavy duty EQ setup. Check the polar alignment again as tightening bolts down can shift it.

That's the basic flow, once you've practiced it a few times it becomes second nature.

You can also use a manual compass with an East West declination scale on it to find true north rather than magnetic north for the mount to point to but it isn't necessary.

At some point within the workflow you'll want to balance your setup in ra and declination (do one at a time) so if either clutch is loosened the setup shouldn't move under gravity depending on the balance of the payload. This is very important when doing astrophotography, not so much for visual but it takes stress off the mount if it's better balanced.

Edited November 22, 2022 by Elp

[ollypenrice]

37 minutes ago, Elp said:

1. If possible setup the tripod on a flat surface. When the legs are splayed check the tripod is level either with an in built level or a separate spirit level.

2. Make sure the mount head (the equatorial bit you put the scope onto) is secured onto the tripod. The telescope dovetail saddle (also declination axis) should be directly on top of the mount in line with it and pointing north (so your whole mount will be orientated north). If your counterweight bar and weight are connected into the mount the bar should be pointing directly to the ground but at an angle depending on your mount angle altitude setting. The altitude (up/down angle orientation should match, or make up the difference subtracted from 90 degrees depending on your actual location in latitude (eg, if you're at 50 degrees north, your angle/altitude of the mount will either be set at 50 degrees or (90-50=40) 40 degrees depending on how it's labelled). You will know if it off because if you look for Polaris (north star easily found by cross referencing the big dipper and on the opposite side Cassiopeia), and imagining your scope pointing directly at Polaris the mount will be either too high or too low in altitude angle, or too left or right of it.

3. Use a polar scope to get Polaris into the centre of the polar scope by making minor altitude (up down angle) and azimuth (left right) adjustments to the mount via their respective screw adjustments. Polaris actually lies on a point around the small circle on the reticule of the polar scope, but for basic polar alignment you can just get it dead centre.

4. Lock everything down. Make sure the payload is all secured, you should also load everything onto the mount before levelling and polar aligning as any physical touch to the setup afterward can knock it out of alignment unless you're using a tank like heavy duty EQ setup. Check the polar alignment again as tightening bolts down can shift it.

That's the basic flow, once you've practiced it a few times it becomes second nature.

You can also use a manual compass with an East West declination scale on it to find true north rather than magnetic north for the mount to point to but it isn't necessary.

At some point within the workflow you'll want to balance your setup in ra and declination (do one at a time) so if either clutch is loosened the setup shouldn't move under gravity depending on the balance of the payload. This is very important when doing astrophotography, not so much for visual but it takes stress off the mount if it's better balanced.

The process you've described, which is perfectly sensible for a visual observing, has no requirement whatever for a level base.  Polaris can be centered in the polarscope from a pier top which is wildly off horizontal. If the polar axis points at Polaris, it points at Polaris and that's that. Who cares where your pier is pointing?

This is an old story with a long history on SGL, but you can save time by concentrating on where your polarscope is pointing because that is what matters. Trust me: I'm a old gimmer!

lly

[Elp]

Is the need for levelling only for alt az? I've always done it anyway, it takes seconds to check and a level tripod is an extra precaution to ensure the payload is better distributed evenly on each leg, obviously this depends highly on where the centre of gravity is.

Edited November 22, 2022 by Elp

[wookie1965]

One of these helps with not getting into all sorts of positions to polar align, 

Edited November 22, 2022 by wookie1965

[Steve Ward]

Back to square #1 ... https://inter-static.skywatcher.com/upfiles/en_download_caty01316546576.pdf

[Franklin]

2 hours ago, reddish75 said:

Why are these mounts so difficult to setup and align!

Visual or imaging? 

If for visual use, just set the altitude scale at the side of the mount to your latitude (around 53deg for Manchester will do) and then point the mount roughly North, no need to use a polarscope. The mount will then track and keep objects in the field of view.

 

[Tomatobro]

I used to take time to level the pier head before putting on the mount until I realised it was not necessary. To convince myself I levelled, polar aligned and tracked then deliberately shorted one tripod leg, then polar aligned and tracked. Even though manufacturers fit a bubble level levelling the mount base is not required for equatorial mounts.

[Mr Spock]

I don't level my EQ5, waste of time for visual. When I first got it, I polar aligned using the polar scope (not difficult) and since then I've not touched it. When I start a session I just plonk it on the patio aligned with the slabs (they are near enough NSEW) and it tracks for hours if needed.

That's why I bought the simple version of the EQ5 (with motors). No faff - just bung it outside and away we go 😜

[ollypenrice]

1 hour ago, Elp said:

Is the need for levelling only for alt az? I've always done it anyway, it takes seconds to check and a level tripod is an extra precaution to ensure the payload is better distributed evenly on each leg, obviously this depends highly on where the centre of gravity is.

Yes, it matters with alt-az, especially if you do anything less than a 3 star alignment (which will calibrate out any tilt errors in the top of the pier.)

You say you level, but you don't!  You tilt the RA axis to your equatorial angle, whatever that is. In my case that's 44 degrees from horizontal. Quite a lot!

Olly

[Elp]

No, I always level the tripod first as I setup and breakdown every time. I think it's a habit having started with alt az and now I always do it to ensure the tripod doesn't get biased to want to topple in one direction. I guess if the legs are more open it reduces this risk, I tend to use short tripods so this problem is more apparent.

Edited November 22, 2022 by Elp

[pipnina]

My process for setting up my HEQ5 is as follows:

Deadlift the mount & tripod to the spot where I will be imaging, and put it down with no payload where it is roughly pointing in the direction of polaris.

What I like to do here, is make sure the mount is relatively well lined up with the tripod leg that faces north. If it's miles off it makes my next step a bit harder, but still possible.

I stand back a bit, line up the mount with that north facing leg in my vision (so you look up from the ground, to the leg, to the mount). I then put both my hands together and point at the tripod leg, then almost lean back and raise my arms til I reach polaris altitude. If polaris is far to my left or right, I need to pick up the mount and turn it a bit!

Then I put my body weight on the mount to get it to sink into the grass a bit (no hard ground sadly) and do that prayer-looking check again. If my hands run through polaris, I am relatively close and can 100% see polaris in the polar scope! (I have my altitude set for my location, I guess the first time you need your altitude set to relatively near your geographic laittiude)

After I do this, it's just a bit of fine-tuning to put polaris in the right spot in the polar scope, or run a computer polar alignment check.

Getting the hang of setting up and using an EQ mount is certainly one of the big hurdles we all struggle with at first. But once it clicks... You end up wondering what all the stress was about in the first place! I promise!

[woldsman]

Start with the tripod. Make sure N points north (put the compass - I use a phone app - on the ground or on something flat that isn’t metal). Use a small spirit level to check the tripod is level. If you don’t do this the spreader, which you attach next, won’t go on easily.

Adjust the alt-az bolts so that you have a gap between the screw threads wide enough to accommodate the raised metal bit on the tripod above the N. Put the mount head on the tripod and adjust the alt-az  bolts so that they tighten and hold the mount head in place. Now if you loosen one bolt and tighten the other, the mount head moves R to L or L to R.

Loosen the clutch so that the counter weight bar retracts and lock the  bar’s clutch again. Loosen the RA clutch. Using  the spirit level, raise the  counter weight bar until it is level & lock the RA. Set RA = 18 hours. Loosen the RA clutch and turn right ascension until the RA circle reads 0. Lock the RA  clutch. Loosen the DEC clutch & turn DEC until the spirit level is level. Lock DEC and turn the DEC circle to read 90. Loosen DEC and turn until the DEC  or Lee reads 0. Your mount is now in the home position.

Attach the counter weight. Attach the scope. Do them in this order, always. Check at this point that the mount head is level (the counter weight may have pulled it towards the weight - that’s no good). Take the lens cap off the scope and attach your guide scope  and camera if you are using one and anything else (eg your filter wheel). Loosen RA and rotate until RA is horizontal and adjust the counter weight so that you can move RA in either direction and the mount stays put. RA is then balanced. Turn RA until horizontal, checking with the spirit level, and lock RA. Loosen DEC and see if the scope holds its position when turned in either direction. If it is not balanced, return to the home position and adjust the scope’s position on the dovetail bar. Then repeat what you just did until DEC is balanced like RA was. Put the lens cap back on. Your scope is now balanced.

Check your latitude reading. If it is not your actual latitude, adjust the latitude bolts until it is correct. You do this by loosening one bolt and tightening the other. NB your phone compass app should show what your latitude is - if not,  check online.

Polar alignment: you can do this manually but it is awkward and not usually very accurate. If you are pointing north and have the right latitude, you should see Polaris. Use an app to find out where Polaris should be. It helps with manual PA if you have both a right angled viewer and an illuminated recticle. But if your mount can work with something like Polemaster, that is a much better option.

Your mount is now set up. If you are imaging and/or using goto, you attach all the cables and power adapters at this point.

There should be some videos on YouTube that demonstrate some or all of the steps outlined above. Basically you set up the mount so often that it becomes second nature. The first few times though are tough because you get stuck on something eg moving the latitude bolts. After a while you develop ‘touch’ and it’s almost as though the mount becomes part of you. No kidding.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2022 by woldsman

[Elp]

55 minutes ago, pipnina said:

Deadlift the mount

All those workouts pay off dont they?

[Marvin Jenkins]

I know we are here to help, but have we frightened off the op?

I would just say go outside on a clear night. Put out your setup with the north leg facing north ie the leg that is inline with the azimuth adjustment nobs.

Adjust your elevation for your place on this planet using the angle guide on the side of the mount.

loosen your clutches a bit and go star gazing. Having an EQ mount is not a restriction for star gazing.

If however you want to polar align accurately to use goto to track objects, and then the next big leap chuck on a camera then you will need to follow the previous advice.

I would say get out there and use it manually for a short while, then once you are confident move to getting accurate polar alignment and all that will lead to.

Marv

[Elp]

Even better, if they want to do quick visual and the mount can, tilt it back to 90 degrees and use it as an alt az mount.

[reddish75]

23 hours ago, Elp said:

1. If possible setup the tripod on a flat surface. When the legs are splayed check the tripod is level either with an in built level or a separate spirit level.

2. Make sure the mount head (the equatorial bit you put the scope onto) is secured onto the tripod. The telescope dovetail saddle (also declination axis) should be directly on top of the mount in line with it and pointing north (so your whole mount will be orientated north). If your counterweight bar and weight are connected into the mount the bar should be pointing directly to the ground but at an angle depending on your mount angle altitude setting. The altitude (up/down angle orientation should match, or make up the difference subtracted from 90 degrees depending on your actual location in latitude (eg, if you're at 50 degrees north, your angle/altitude of the mount will either be set at 50 degrees or (90-50=40) 40 degrees depending on how it's labelled). You will know if it off because if you look for Polaris (north star easily found by cross referencing the big dipper and on the opposite side Cassiopeia), and imagining your scope pointing directly at Polaris the mount will be either too high or too low in altitude angle, or too left or right of it.

3. Use a polar scope to get Polaris into the centre of the polar scope by making minor altitude (up down angle) and azimuth (left right) adjustments to the mount via their respective screw adjustments. Polaris actually lies on a point around the small circle on the reticule of the polar scope, but for basic polar alignment you can just get it dead centre.

4. Lock everything down. Make sure the payload is all secured, you should also load everything onto the mount before levelling and polar aligning as any physical touch to the setup afterward can knock it out of alignment unless you're using a tank like heavy duty EQ setup. Check the polar alignment again as tightening bolts down can shift it.

That's the basic flow, once you've practiced it a few times it becomes second nature.

You can also use a manual compass with an East West declination scale on it to find true north rather than magnetic north for the mount to point to but it isn't necessary.

At some point within the workflow you'll want to balance your setup in ra and declination (do one at a time) so if either clutch is loosened the setup shouldn't move under gravity depending on the balance of the payload. This is very important when doing astrophotography, not so much for visual but it takes stress off the mount if it's better balanced.

 

Thanks, this is the kind of easy setup descriptions I can follow

[reddish75]

20 hours ago, pipnina said:

Getting the hang of setting up and using an EQ mount is certainly one of the big hurdles we all struggle with at first. But once it clicks... You end up wondering what all the stress was about in the first place! I promise!

Just seems so difficult, like most things your right It'll click eventually

[reddish75]

19 hours ago, Marvin Jenkins said:

I know we are here to help, but have we frightened off the op?

I would just say go outside on a clear night. Put out your setup with the north leg facing north ie the leg that is inline with the azimuth adjustment nobs.

Adjust your elevation for your place on this planet using the angle guide on the side of the mount.

loosen your clutches a bit and go star gazing. Having an EQ mount is not a restriction for star gazing.

If however you want to polar align accurately to use goto to track objects, and then the next big leap chuck on a camera then you will need to follow the previous advice.

I would say get out there and use it manually for a short while, then once you are confident move to getting accurate polar alignment and all that will lead to.

Marv

 I'm still here, we went out last night with an unaligned finder scope did manage to see Mar briefly but struggled to find again.

So now some questions and please pardon my ignorance on these but the more I learn...... you know how it goes.

Why does the north leg have to face north? Is it so Polaris can be seen?

Elevation whats that needed for? Polaris again? If I set it to ~ 50 for Manchester UK, should it stay at that when star gazing if it moves from that what will be the effect?

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by reddish75

[Budgie1]

23 minutes ago, reddish75 said:

Why does the north leg have to face north? Is it so Polaris can be seen?

Elevation whats that needed for? Polaris again? If I set it to ~ 50 for Manchester UK, should it stay at that when star gazing if it moves from that what will be the effect?

The North leg (on a SkyWatcher EQ5) has to point North for the mount to be roughly pointing in the correct direction to pick up the Northern Celestial Pole (NCP). 

The latitude elevation is important for locating the NCP because the further North you live, the higher the NCP will be in the sky. So the indicator on your mount will give you a rough guide as to how high your mount should be pointing for your location. 

This is a good video which may help to explain it better:

 

[Elp]

37 minutes ago, reddish75 said:

A. Why does the north leg have to face north? Is it so Polaris can be seen?

B. Elevation whats that needed for? Polaris again? If I set it to ~ 50 for Manchester UK, should it stay at that when star gazing if it moves from that what will be the effect?

A. On some mount tripods, one leg is marked N for north as a simple guide so when the head is on top and orientated as I described for setup and pointing toward Polaris, it's easier to repeat the process if you move your setup back indoors and out again, your setup will be close to Polaris again to fine tune the polar alignment for the next run.

B. Elevation/altitude adjustment, yes. Once polar aligned you do not adjust this at all, as long as you continue to observe from a similar location your altitude won't change much, refer to a global map for guidance on latitude lines. Polar alignment is more critical for astrophotography, for visual you can get away with being roughly aligned if you are going to be using the setting circles (which generally are kind of useless for most amatuer setups) and referencing ra and Dec coordinates to find targets, if you're using goto you may just need to move the scope a little to find a target one it's goto has completed. Visual observers typically skip polar alignment (or very roughly do it) and rely on star hopping instead to find targets.

If the polar alignment changes mid session your ability to use goto or setting circles accurately diminishes as you will not be aligned to the datum point of Polaris in order to get a target in the centre of view after a slew (movement of scope to target). Hence why people star hop instead. If imaging and your setup moves from Polaris, no amount of tracking or autoguiding will stop your stars being imaged from being captured as lines or streaks rather than pin point dots during long exposures (unless there is a mount/tech out there which can autoalign itself constantly automatically).

Edited November 23, 2022 by Elp

[Mr Spock]

As you are level with me (Sheffield) you can follow these setting exactly as my mount is perfectly aligned.

I've enhanced the pointer on this to show where it is. It should be pointing to 52°

Once you've done that, you are good to go. All you need to do then is make sure the 'N' leg is pointing North - towards Polaris.

You don't need to worry about being spot on. It will track for a fair time as it is. Mine goes for hours without losing the target.

[Franklin]

1 hour ago, reddish75 said:

Why does the north leg have to face north?

The whole reason for polar alignment is to get the Right Ascension axis of the mount parallel with the axis of planet Earth. So as the Earth spins, causing the stars to apparently rotate, rising in the East and setting in the West, the Right Ascension axis can be moved in the opposite direction. This compensates for the Earth's rotation and will keep celestial objects in the field of view whilst observing/imaging. All objects in the sky appear to rotate around the celestial pole, which is a projection of the Earth's pole and axis of rotation. It's North for us who live North of the equator. If you lived in Australia you would have to point the Right Ascension axis of your mount South.