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Could I get some feedback on my astrophotography equipment plan? I'm new to this.

Zippy_McSpeed
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Zippy_McSpeed

Zippy_McSpeed

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Posted (edited)

Hey, guys

So wifey and I are nearing 50 and in need of a relaxing hobby together and she's also down with the astrophotography idea.  I don't care about just looking though the eyepiece like on a Dobsonian, so the photography part is what's interesting.  Cost isn't really an issue, but I don't want to waste it either.  We're both tech nerds (computer science degrees), so the technical learning curve should be manageable but I still want it to be as simple as possible.  I've done a bunch of homework but would like someone to check my math and tell me what I've overlooking.

Here's the kit I think looks good and the reasons for each bit.  Correct me where I'm wrong and fill in any gaps if you wouldn't mind!

 

What else do I need to consider?  Thanks for any help!

Edited by Zippy_McSpeed
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M40

M40

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Hello Zippy_McSpeed and welcome to the site 👍

Impressive shopping list, but as you mentioned what else to consider and there is nothing better than spending other peoples money......

One thing I would have a second look at is the mount. I can't make any comments on your chosen mount as such but the first thing I looked at was the load capacity. For your initial setup it looks great but you mentioned that you will also be looking at solar system stuff in the future? This will likely mean a larger, heavier, telescope plus with bits and bobs bolted onto it, it may put that mount onto it's limits. When I use an 85mm refractor plus bits and bobs on my mount with a stated max imaging weight of 13Kgs, it copes very well, but with a Skymax180 plus bits and bobs I know it's just about managing. So I think, budget allowing, I would jump up a size in mount.

All the best and enjoy your journey.

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knobby

knobby

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I think you've done well there, be aware that the AVX gets some bad reviews but it will be fine for wide field stuff. The 183 has horrible amp glow on long exposures but should calibrate out easily.

Only extras that jump out are dew straps for the scope and guide scope.

 

For planets you could add a C8 sct or possibly a C9.25 but that's the limit of the AVX.

I wish you and the Mrs all the best with your new hobby.

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Zippy_McSpeed

Zippy_McSpeed

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5 minutes ago, knobby said:

The 183 has horrible amp glow on long exposures but should calibrate out easily.

Is there another ZWO cam you'd suggest, or one from another maker that'll work fine with the ASIAIR?

Edited by Zippy_McSpeed
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Clarkey

Clarkey

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There are really lots of options, much of it down to personal choice. I'm sure the FRA300 is ok, I have no personal experience. I would maybe consider the FRA400, which is a similar design but you can get a reducer to give F3.9 at just under 300mm FL. Maybe more flexible? There are other similar scopes and I would not worry about using a flattener or reducer.

As for the mount I can't really comment. I have an heq5 which is about the minimum you want for a 'proper' scope. I think the AVX is similar. Maybe a used neq6 or similar might be a good option?

For the camera I would seriously consider mono. The initial outlay is more, but it gives more flexibility and improves light polluted photography. I thought I would not really use narrowband when I brought my kit, but now the bulk of my widefield imaging is NB. Also helps with the moon. 

The ASIAIR is a fair choice but does limit you to ZWO products. I use a mini fanless PC to run my set up so I was not tied to one company. Yes it needs a fair bit of set up, but gives you the choice of other kit. (I have a risingcam imx571 for the cost of a 183.

Autofocuser is fine. I use senso Sesto just because the are neater and easier to install. But with the ASIAIR.....

Power - probably go bigger than you 'need'. Nothing worse than running out of juice.

Finally, get a couple of good books before diving in. Mistakes are costly! 

I will warn you, if you get hooked it is a slippery slope to poverty 😆

Edited by Clarkey
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AstroMuni

AstroMuni

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12 hours ago, Zippy_McSpeed said:

I don't care about just looking though the eyepiece like on a Dobsonian, so the photography part is what's interesting.  Cost isn't really an issue, but I don't want to waste it either.

Welcome to SGL. As others have said get the best mount for your budget. The next choice is of platform - windows vs Mac and/or Linux. The learning curve lies first in gaining experience of controlling your devices thro software and then the artistic bit of processing. Slightly more choice available on Windows at the moment but thats a changing landscape. Good luck!

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Varavall

Varavall

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16 hours ago, Zippy_McSpeed said:

fill in any gaps if you wouldn't mind

Hi

Astrophotgraphy is a way to make a small fortune by starting out with a big one! That aside, some sort of fixed mount in an observatory, or clamshell cover, in your backyard in my opinion would make your life easier. I used to cart my imaging kit in and out the house spending time doing polar alignment, balancing etc. each time. TIRING!!!! So now I leave my setup in place, and when it's clear skies, open the lid, flick the switches, connect the computer and load the target sequences into NINA (all takes about 10 minutes and no back ache), then watch a film, go to bed, or whatever, then in the morning all the images are ready for processing (hopefully).

As for cameras, I use ZWO mono with Astrodon filters (get the best you can afford such as Chroma or Antlia if you can) and for guiding I use a QHY5III462C because of it's near IR sensitivity it functions almost as a mono camera with the IR pass filter and it makes a great planetary camera too.

Ask 100 astronomers and you'll get 100 different opinions maybe with some overlap in places. 

Good luck!

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Elp

Elp

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I have tried to keep my budget fairly low but over the years that's generally gone out of the window. I have however kept to my aim of keeping my setup portable and my main 60mm refractor setup all fits into one 50L bag which I can carry on my back including power, counterweights etc. If you want an idea of what I've achieved with what many consider a basic, not even capable mount (azgti) have a look at my flickr profile (doimg) and see for yourself, considering most of the AP progress has only been in the last year mostly carrying out tests with new equipment and is slowly improving.

You will have technical issues but if you approach them methodically one by one they will be overcome.

Filters, if you're going narrowband will cost as much or more than the scope so you'll have to budget for it. OSC is a good avenue to follow, eventually you may want to go mono as you can utilise all the pixels at the same intensity as each other and also shoot narrowband which cuts through light pollution and also moonlit nights. From a processing perspective OSC may be the easier route, and you will need to get good post processing your images as that's where the majority of the "wow" factor comes from, after you've captured good data to work with.

If you're planning on getting a larger heavier scope down the line then consider a heavier duty mount but bear in mind if you're going to be breaking it down and setting up every time the bigger may not be the best, hence why I primarily use my azgti.

In my experience, others may agree and also disagree, an asiair is one of the best AP purchases I've made, makes the whole experience easy and you don't need a laptop in the field. Computers are more capable yes, but an Asiair when you're in the middle of nowhere sometimes freezing your bones makes for more convenience setting up and using. You are however tied to zwo cameras (which isn't necessarily a bad thing).

The main things I've mentioned herein are the best purchases I've made I think in no particular order: WOZ61, azgti and asiair.

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SoftwareDeveloper

SoftwareDeveloper

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@Zippy_McSpeed Regarding your thought about getting a ZWO ASI183MC: I have several cameras, one of them is the ASI183MC, its the only camera I have regrets for purchasing. Its not a "bad" camera, its just not as good as it "should" be. I have several other ZWO cameras and they all work well, the issue is the sensor used in that model. Several other models get very good reviews in the community, so I suggest you look into one of the others that does not use that particular imaging chip. If that was the only camera I had, I would use it. Sometimes I use it for a guide camera now, most of the time it sits on a shelf unused.

ZWO stuff is very good overall, I have nothing bad to say about them (many positive things in fact!). QHY products are good also, pricier, but not ASIAIR compatible (a competitive issue most likely), but QHY upper end cameras have one other possible advantage- the GPS box which will stamp each image with precision time and location, ZWO doesnt offer anything equivalent (I wish they would). For simple imaging the time of the exposure does not matter, but with anything that moves, its really useful info. Things that move- the moon, sun, planets, comets, asteroids, satellites, etc. Precise time is an advantage if your hobby grows in that direction. You can also purchase another camera later when that becomes desirable.

Just my suggestion- look into other cameras. I suspect there are folks getting great results from the 183, it just makes me wonder how much better they might have been with something else..

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vlaiv

vlaiv

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11 minutes ago, SoftwareDeveloper said:

Its not a "bad" camera, its just not as good as it "should" be. I have several other ZWO cameras and they all work well, the issue is the sensor used in that model.

What is the actual issue with that camera that you experienced?

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newbie alert

newbie alert

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Posted
1 hour ago, SoftwareDeveloper said:

 

ZWO stuff is very good overall, I have nothing bad to say about them (many positive things in fact!). QHY products are good also, pricier, but not ASIAIR compatible

Are they??. run a check on the qhy 268 and the zwo 2600, same sensor, last time I checked there was quite a gap

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22 hours ago, Zippy_McSpeed said:

The telescope is the same design as the redcat( petzval) the askar has a slightly bigger objective by 9mm and a longer FL , if you plug the specs into astromany tools fov with the camera of your choice you can get a feel for what targets you want to shoot, so you may want to re-adjust.. 250-300mm is a very wide fov

The avx is a great mount for that size and above refractor, and is fine for if you want to shoot some planetary with a 8 or poss a 9.25 SCT at a later date.. but realistically any heq5 , ioptron 28 upwards will suit, aswell as being fairly portable..

Cameras... Lots of cameras have positives and negatives.. the 533 is worth some serious thought, if going mono qhy now has a 533m

Personally I'd not restrict yourself to the ASI air, in terms of restrictions to zwo products and restrictions on software such as PhD.. if you're tech geeks you shouldn't have too many problems with figuring out software, the ASI air is only a raspberry pi with a preloaded software after all

Autofocuser.. the EAF gets a good reputation but loads on the market now

 

Finally enjoy what you're using, it's highly rewarding and addictive, don't be shy to ask questions

 

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SoftwareDeveloper

SoftwareDeveloper

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@vlaiv The issue is noise. Red is 2x more noise than Green or Blue, that is with cooler ON and at 0C.  The images are more noisy than my other cameras, that can be overcome with more subs..

Hope that explains the issue.

@Zippy_McSpeed Since you and your wife have computer backgrounds, you will find you can write a great deal of your own software (as I have). Getting started, I strongly suggest use off-the-shelf software and hardware until you get your first good results, then look at where you can supplement the programs you use at the beginning with ones you customize to your needs. Before you buy a camera from any vendor, I suggest you download their developers API interface. Does that make sense to you? If so.. you are in good shape. If not.. find one that does, as that may be a key to getting the most from your equipment in the future.

Also, you mentioned mounts. Look into the computer interface to the mounts, not just ASCOM and ALPACA, can you communicate with them directly? Some mounts allow direct communication with the hardware in the mount itself (via wifi, ethernet[X-BaseT], USB, or RS232), others require you plug into a hand-controller via RS232. The hand controller then becomes a dongle that is always in the way. See if the mount can run with no hand controller, much better for direct computer control. Another issue is the connectors mount manufactures seem to prefer: phone jacks. RJ-11 et. al. Those were designed by the telephone industry for only a few insertions/removal during their lifetime. Using them for a hand controller, or RS232 interface is asking for a short lifespan as those get plugged/unplugged often. That is not a huge sticking point, but it does become an issue. Most of the folks I know who have owned their telescope for several years or more have had to replace cables with broken connectors. Then sometimes the replacement cable is a 'reverse' cable of the one needed and the next thing that happens is some magic smoke comes out from somewhere. (This has happened to me, and no doubt others.)

Good luck, whatever you start with, you and your wife will have fun. It certainly provides something to talk about, and that is a very positive thing!

:)

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Ratlet

Ratlet

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I'm just starting out and went for a 200 & 300mm lens.  Shorter focal length being more forgiving.  My glass is nowhere near as fancy as what you are looking at though.  But the focal length is excellent for a whole range of objects up there.

I'm using a mini pc with NINA and it works well.  Really well.  Once you get used to it and iron out the links.  It's not that hard, but watch cuiv the lazy geek on youtube to get an idea for the setup.

ELP has kind of highlighted the important part though is the attitude to it.  Astrophotography is more than just taking pretty pictures.  There is loads to do and that will go wrong.  But if you approach it with the same mindset as ELP seems to you'll get great joy from it.  You're looking at learning a whole new skill and each new bit of info or understanding will contribute to make it better.

There is so much to learn, but there are shed loads of people willing to share and help

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vlaiv

vlaiv

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3 minutes ago, SoftwareDeveloper said:

The issue is noise. Red is 2x more noise than Green or Blue, that is with cooler ON and at 0C.  The images are more noisy than my other cameras, that can be overcome with more subs..

Hope that explains the issue.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by x2 larger noise in red over green or blue with cooler turned on and temperature set to 0C.

Is it thermal noise? Is it read noise? Is this subjective judgement of SNR when inspecting subs?

ASI183 has rather small pixels and you should take this into account. It tends to over sample on most telescopes because of 2.4um pixel size.

Given that it has rather small read noise - you can bin it in software without issues.

I'd advise you to do the following if you want to get the maximum out of that camera:

1. Use super pixel mode or split debayering to get color information (don't use interpolation methods)

2. Bin resulting subs further x2 to increase effective pixel size and improve SNR (or bin x2 linear stacks prior to any further processing).

Camera itself is 5496*3672, but above will reduce pixel count to effective 1374 x 918 px

I know that this sounds too low in terms of mega pixels - but just think about it for a moment - it is low cost, small pixel sensor similar to say ATIK314/414 models - but with better QE and lower read noise at lower price.

People get caught up in all the megapixel craze - and fail to see sensor for what it really is.

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CraigT82

CraigT82

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Software! I find it funny when people spend thousands on the hardware and then struggle on with freeware to process their images because they flat out refuse to spend on decent software. 

Have a look around the the various acquisition/calibration/editing suites available. One thing you’ll probably want to get going on fairly soon is automating everything so make sure your chosen software is compatible with your hardware. The ASAIR is a nifty bit of kit but you’re likes to ZWO products with it. Use your skills to build a mini PC to control everything instead. 
 

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Ouroboros

Ouroboros

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I’m going to speak up in favour of using the ASIair for your project.  I’ve been doing astro imaging for ten years initially with no PC control (or GOTO), then using Windows on a PC, then with a MAC using KStars software and then, finally and most recently, with an ASIair.  I cannot tell how much pleasure it has been to use the ASIair and to lose all those computer hassles.  Frankly neither have I missed the (alleged) greater flexibility of using computer or other control - I guess because I never used ‘em.

OK, I accept it limits you to ZWO cameras. But is that a great restriction initially? ZWO make very good main cameras at reasonable prices.  As for guide cameras - ZWO’s are as good as any.

Another  thing is that you’ve got quite a learning curve - what with telescope, mount etc - although I accept you’re very capable people.  What I am saying is that amongst all the other stuff to learn, the ASIair is an easy to learn and  hopefully trouble-free bit of kit. It’s also relatively cheap. So if after a season you’re champing at the bit to access all the other features (supposedly available with other control systems) then you can move on up. Maybe even sell your ASIair. There’s a market for second hand ones. 

Just my thoughts.  

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newbie alert

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2 hours ago, CraigT82 said:

Software! I find it funny when people spend thousands on the hardware and then struggle on with freeware to process their images because they flat out refuse to spend on decent software. 

Have a look around the the various acquisition/calibration/editing suites available. One thing you’ll probably want to get going on fairly soon is automating everything so make sure your chosen software is compatible with your hardware. The ASAIR is a nifty bit of kit but you’re likes to ZWO products with it. Use your skills to build a mini PC to control everything instead. 
 

Compare SGP to Nina... Is SGP better because it costs more? Did people jump ship because of money ?

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