First binoviewer night time experience - I'm hooked!

[Victor Boesen]

Last night I was finally able to try out my Omegon/TS binoviewer for night time observing. I had previously only used it for H-alpha solar observing where I found it very comfortable to use so I was excited to see how it would perform on planetary/lunar observing, and what was required for it to reach focus with my TecnoSky 102mm F7 APO.

I started on the near full moon since it was easy to find even if I'm way out of focus. Placing the binoviewer directly in the Baader Zeiss T2 prism revealed I lacked slight in-focus without any GPC (no surprise). However, I already know of a few adapters/fixes which should allow me to do straight through observing. I then tried adding my VIP barlow element with two 15mm extensions which reached focus nicely! This gave an approximate multiplication factor of 1+30/64 ≈ 3.19X (assuming binoviewer has an optical path of 110mm). With my pair of 32mm eyepieces this is a magnification of roughly 71X.

A quick note - I did also try cyclops to compare the view, which I will briefly comment on in the end of the post.

The Moon

As visible in the image above, this left nearly 30mm of inwards travel left. Observing the moon at this magnification was amazing! It took some time before I got used to eye placement and etc. but the amount of detail visible was excellent. Craterlet A in Plato easily visible 90% of the time only being invisible for very short periods (less than a second). I am confident I also saw craterlet B and the C/D pair both of which I have never seen before in this scope!!

Saturn

I have not observed Saturn for a very long time, so I was excited to revisit this beautiful planet. I found it in the bino and I was very satisfied with the view! The Cassini division was sharply defined 75-80% of the time and a slight banding on the planet was also visible. I found that eye placement was slightly more crucial here compared to observing the Moon. What also surprised me was that I was easily able to spot four moons, Titan, Dione, Rhea and Tethys. From the light polluted city with a near full moon and four inches of aperture I didn't expect this. In the end, Saturn was not a day/night difference compared to previous memories of Saturn through this scope, however, it certainly was not any worse, and a great amount of detail was visible like on the Moon.

I'm still getting along nicely with the Berlebach Castor II mount, but I will be getting a small counterweight since the AZ axis can be a little sticky at higher elevations. With that said, I'm very happy with it considering its price. I must say, however, the Gitzo purchase of @badhex really has made me reconsider the addition of a carbon fiber tripod for this setup

Jupiter

By now Jupiter was roughly 20 degrees above the horizon so I turned my attention to the gas giant. I had now added the T2-1.25" eyepiece adapter to the Baader VIP barlow resulting in a multiplication factor of ≈ 3.72X and a magnification of 83X. At first Jupiter was not much more than a beige disk with two faint equatorial bands, however, from past experience I knew this was just a matter of my brain/eyes adjusting and collecting details. After a couple minutes the details started to emerge, and I spotted the Great Red Spot approximately centered on the disk. Studying the disk even further revealed delicate differences in the hue of the Southern Equatorial Belt (SEB) around the GRS. At one point I also thought there was a shadow transit, as I started seeing a dark spot/smudge on the NEB. However, confirmed by skysafari there was no shadow transit. The dark spot/smudge is visible in the following image shared on here by @U Cyg.
https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/398281-jupiter-mars-12-08-2022/
I spotted the dark marking just northwest of the GRS.

Going cyclops

I tried observing cyclops where I started on the Moon. A quick peek at approximately the same magnification and I was surprised how uncomfortable and straining it was! I had not been aware of this until now, but the binoviewer is so comfortable to observe through. I tried observing the Plato craterlets, where I was only able to spot craterlet A, and maybe also B, but I'm not entirely sure. Turning to Saturn revealed the same story - The Cassini division and banding on the planet was still visible, however, it required a lot more effort. Comfortability alone makes the binoviewer well worth it in my opinion!

And hey, a binoviewer just looks a little more awesome

Finishing the session I turned to Mars. At under 9" in diameter and 83X not a lot was visible - perhaps some slight dark marking around the equator and a southern polar ice cap, but I really was not sure if I was just making things up. Mars was also above the rooftops of a couple houses so the view was a little unstable compared to Jupiter and Saturn. Upping the magnification in cyclops gave the same impressions as mentioned, but the view wasn't great. I'm looking forward to observing Mars as it rises higher on the sky

A slight sidetrack - I have unfortunately not been able to reach focus for white light observing, but I think it should be possible. I'm considering a Baader 2.6X GPC, but I'm not sure if it can be used with a non-Baader binoviewer. According to Teleskop-Express it can.

I already have a T2 adapter for the bino (see the first pic. It's just about visible just after the binoviewer body), so I should be able to mount it. I will do some more planning/thinking before I decide on anything

Victor

 

Edited August 13, 2022 by Victor Boesen

[RobertI]

Great stuff Victor, glad the BVs are working for you! 🙂 I don’t know if you found this but objects seem bigger when viewing with two eyes, so the moon at 70x through BVs is more like 100x with cyclops in terms of image scale (I realise it’s an optical illusion). And as you rightly point out, BVs encourage you to view for longer…. much longer. The biggest revelation for me is planetary viewing at around 170x - Mars and Jupiter are awesome with BVs and the 102ED. Fortunately I can get 170x just by screwing the lens of my Classic Baader Barlow to the nosepiece of my WO BVs with the standard 20mm eyepieces. The Baader VIP Barlow gives about 150x. Looking forward to comparing notes when Jupiter gets higher. 👍

[Victor Boesen]

4 hours ago, RobertI said:

Great stuff Victor, glad the BVs are working for you! 🙂 I don’t know if you found this but objects seem bigger when viewing with two eyes, so the moon at 70x through BVs is more like 100x with cyclops in terms of image scale (I realise it’s an optical illusion). And as you rightly point out, BVs encourage you to view for longer…. much longer. The biggest revelation for me is planetary viewing at around 170x - Mars and Jupiter are awesome with BVs and the 102ED. Fortunately I can get 170x just by screwing the lens of my Classic Baader Barlow to the nosepiece of my WO BVs with the standard 20mm eyepieces. The Baader VIP Barlow gives about 150x. Looking forward to comparing notes when Jupiter gets higher. 👍

Thanks Rob!! I'm also very happy with it and relieved that I have not issues with collimation, image merging and etc. I totally agree with you about the image size/magnification. I purposely didn't calculate the magnification while outside and waited until this morning when I made the post. I was very surprised that I was under 100X the entire time! To be honest I didn't feel the need for much higher magnification either. However, I will most certainly get myself second Baader Classic Ortho 18mm for some higher magnifications. I can only imagine what the view will be like. Nice solution with the Baader Classic Barlow  Much similar of what I did with my VIP it sounds like.

I'll definitely post some more about my binoviewer experiences. I still have some issues to solve for white light observing as I briefly mentioned, but I hope I can fix it somehow. Just need to save up some money for some time now....

Victor

[Stu]

Excellent report and great setup @Victor Boesen 👍. I’m certainly a convert for solar and lunar, although still on the fence over planetary, pros and cons for me still so I mix it up.

Glad that you are enjoying the binoviewers and getting enhanced views from them. I confess I am never quite sure what magnification I’m using with mine! I use 25mm orthos, a x1.7 GPC then the element from an AP bar on with varying lengths of extensions to vary the mag. I call it x100, x150 and x200 but I’m never quite sure! Much measure it properly some time.

Pretty good going to get four moons on Saturn in city lighting! I managed five some years ago but my skies would have been darker than yours. It’s amazing what a good sharp 4” apo with high contrast and low scatter can pick out 👍.

I do enjoy my Gitzo too; although they are pricey I’ve had so much use out of mine. It means I can easily single hand carry the fully loaded scope with BVs and eyepieces, tripod and mount out in one go, no sweat. It means it gets used even when I only have ten or fifteen minutes to spare.

Looking forward to more reports.

[Victor Boesen]

41 minutes ago, Stu said:

Excellent report and great setup @Victor Boesen 👍. I’m certainly a convert for solar and lunar, although still on the fence over planetary, pros and cons for me still so I mix it up.

Glad that you are enjoying the binoviewers and getting enhanced views from them. I confess I am never quite sure what magnification I’m using with mine! I use 25mm orthos, a x1.7 GPC then the element from an AP bar on with varying lengths of extensions to vary the mag. I call it x100, x150 and x200 but I’m never quite sure! Much measure it properly some time.

Pretty good going to get four moons on Saturn in city lighting! I managed five some years ago but my skies would have been darker than yours. It’s amazing what a good sharp 4” apo with high contrast and low scatter can pick out 👍.

I do enjoy my Gitzo too; although they are pricey I’ve had so much use out of mine. It means I can easily single hand carry the fully loaded scope with BVs and eyepieces, tripod and mount out in one go, no sweat. It means it gets used even when I only have ten or fifteen minutes to spare.

Looking forward to more reports.

Thank you Stu Can hopefully start using it for white light too asap!
Who cares what magnification you're observing at After all you only need to know the exact magnification in two instances - When people ask you about the magnification, and when you need to share it on SGL

I was surprised spotting four moons too. However, it's worth mentioning the fourth was barely visible and had Skysafari not confirmed my observation I would probably not have included it in the count.

If I were to get a carbon fiber tripod I would, unfortunately, not be able to justify the price of the Gitzo so would need to find an alternative well aware I won't get the same sturdiness/quality. However, if I can find a tripod to carry the Berlebach Caster II and 102mm APO comfortably then I'd be very interested. Still eyeballing the Innorel RT80C with a load capacity of 20kg and a more manageable price.

Victor

[Stu]

43 minutes ago, Victor Boesen said:

Thank you Stu Can hopefully start using it for white light too asap!
Who cares what magnification you're observing at After all you only need to know the exact magnification in two instances - When people ask you about the magnification, and when you need to share it on SGL

I was surprised spotting four moons too. However, it's worth mentioning the fourth was barely visible and had Skysafari not confirmed my observation I would probably not have included it in the count.

If I were to get a carbon fiber tripod I would, unfortunately, not be able to justify the price of the Gitzo so would need to find an alternative well aware I won't get the same sturdiness/quality. However, if I can find a tripod to carry the Berlebach Caster II and 102mm APO comfortably then I'd be very interested. Still eyeballing the Innorel RT80C with a load capacity of 20kg and a more manageable price.

Victor

How true about the irrelevance of knowing the actual mag! I’ll stop bothering and stick to what I normally say. The views are what counts, and they are enough to keep me happy.

I sold a very nice Berlebach Report and both a Redsnapper which seemed to have good reviews and load capacity, but to me it was much more wobbly than I had hoped for so I returned it. I had an Induro aluminium job for quite a while and that was excellent, only sold that to fund the Gitzo. I think Induro only do CF now, not sure of their range but pricing should definitely be less than Gitzo.
 

So, take your time and make sure you can return it if not happy would be my advise.

[Victor Boesen]

30 minutes ago, Stu said:

So, take your time and make sure you can return it if not happy would be my advise.

Excellent advice, thanks Stu

Edited August 13, 2022 by Victor Boesen

[Space Hopper]

Nice report , and good to hear you are enjoying the bino viewers.

[MalcolmM]

2 hours ago, Victor Boesen said:

Still eyeballing the Innorel RT80C

I have this and it's pretty good. But with 2 leg sections extended, with an ercole on top and a 100DC I find the vibrations while focusing continue for 4 or 5 seconds. Even worse with Binoviewers (guessing due to the big weights of the lense and Binoviewers at each end of the OTA). I haven't proved it's the tripod and not the ercole but I suspect it is. I wish I had shelled out the extra on a gitzo with hindsight! That being said, it's very light and portable, can take the load and I do use it quite a lot for it's ease of carrying round the garden to the best observing spots! I just suspect the gitzo would be more stable.

Malcolm

PS I'm glad you like the binoviewer experience. I think they're great too! 

[Victor Boesen]

7 hours ago, MalcolmM said:

I have this and it's pretty good. But with 2 leg sections extended, with an ercole on top and a 100DC I find the vibrations while focusing continue for 4 or 5 seconds. Even worse with Binoviewers (guessing due to the big weights of the lense and Binoviewers at each end of the OTA). I haven't proved it's the tripod and not the ercole but I suspect it is. I wish I had shelled out the extra on a gitzo with hindsight! That being said, it's very light and portable, can take the load and I do use it quite a lot for it's ease of carrying round the garden to the best observing spots! I just suspect the gitzo would be more stable.

Malcolm

PS I'm glad you like the binoviewer experience. I think they're great too! 

Thank you Malcolm, I was not aware you owned that tripod! Hearing from your experience it sounds like I should be looking for something a little more heavy duty. Excellent to get first hand experience on it - thanks a lot!

Victor

[Victor Boesen]

8 hours ago, Space Hopper said:

Nice report , and good to hear you are enjoying the bino viewers.

Thank you!

[badhex]

Great report and first light Victor, glad you're enjoying the binoviewers! It is a (glass) path I am yet to tread 🙂

Obviously you know my thoughts re the Gitzo but as with @Stu's comments, take your time and buy whatever option you decide on from somewhere that you can return to if needed. Gitzo do actually provide a 30 day return but I'll stop there 🤐😂

Edited August 14, 2022 by badhex

[Stu]

Having just been outside observing the sun through binoviewers, another thing crossed my mind. I think for best and most relaxed viewing, you should concentrate your eyes on axis or nearby. When you try to pan around the field then you can get blackouts in one eye or the other, so I find it best to stay on axis and pan the scope around to see other features. I sometimes have the mount setup so I can hold the binoviewers just like binoculars and use them to move the scope as I want to pan around. Works quite well and naturally I find.

[Victor Boesen]

7 hours ago, badhex said:

Great report and first light Victor, glad you're enjoying the binoviewers! It is a (glass) path I am yet to tread 🙂

Obviously you know my thoughts re the Gitzo but as with @Stu's comments, take your time and buy whatever option you decide on from somewhere that you can return to if needed. Gitzo do actually provide a 30 day return but I'll stop there 🤐😂

Thanks Joe! You should definitely try binoviewing at some point I think getting my Quark a little more than a year ago made me decide I finally wanted to try binoviewing.

You just can't help yourself doing some Gitzo advertising after all can you? Are you affiliated with them or something But yeah, going to think about it for some more time before buying anything. Another option would be to just save the extra money to get the Innorel RT90C which should be sufficient for my setup. Unfortunately it seems like there are few options sold locally in Denmark, and the price isn't too great either.... Will do some more research

7 hours ago, Stu said:

I think for best and most relaxed viewing, you should concentrate your eyes on axis or nearby. When you try to pan around the field then you can get blackouts in one eye or the other, so I find it best to stay on axis and pan the scope around to see other features.

Good point. I definitely spent a good while to find the best observing strategy, eye placement and interpupillary distance before I got entirely comfortable with the view. I think the long eye relief of the Baader Plössl 32mm also made it slightly more difficult but not too sure. Hopefully going to have a pair of 18mm BCO to compare with sooner or later

[Stu]

30 minutes ago, Victor Boesen said:

Good point. I definitely spent a good while to find the best observing strategy, eye placement and interpupillary distance before I got entirely comfortable with the view. I think the long eye relief of the Baader Plössl 32mm also made it slightly more difficult but not too sure. Hopefully going to have a pair of 18mm BCO to compare with sooner or later

That’s very true. Getting the interpupillary distance right makes a huge difference, as does making sure the focus balance is right between both eyes.

I do find it trickier when barlowing to extremes because it pushes the eye relief out even further. Eye guards made from hobby foam can be very handy to help reduce glare and get your eye position correct. I do this with my Ha binoviewing, should really do the same for white light (I have a pair for each scope 🤪👍)

[badhex]

27 minutes ago, Stu said:

I have a pair for each scope 🤪👍

And a pair for each set of eyes! 👀👀

[Stu]

31 minutes ago, badhex said:

And a pair for each set of eyes! 👀👀

Indeed! 🤣🤣

[Paz]

Great report. You will be able to use baader gpc's with that binoviewer. They can be mounted anywhere in a t2 ring with a little adapter.

See pictures below. Picture 1 is a gpc and the little adapter ring they come with and some t2 extensions. Picture 2 shows the little adapter placed in the t2 extension rings. Picture 3 shows the gpc placed in the adapter ring. Then you screw this into the optical train lwherever you want and off you go.

The magnification depends on where exactly they are, im my solar set up I use a 2.6x gpc but it results in about 3.4x magnification as ihas to be quite a way from the binoviewer to get things to focus.

[Victor Boesen]

12 minutes ago, Paz said:

Great report. You will be able to use baader gpc's with that binoviewer. They can be mounted anywhere in a t2 ring with a little adapter.

See pictures below. Picture 1 is a gpc and the little adapter ring they come with and some t2 extensions. Picture 2 shows the little adapter placed in the t2 extension rings. Picture 3 shows the gpc placed in the adapter ring. Then you screw this into the optical train lwherever you want and off you go.

The magnification depends on where exactly they are, im my solar set up I use a 2.6x gpc but it results in about 3.4x magnification as ihas to be quite a way from the binoviewer to get things to focus.

Excellent!! This was the exact answer I hoped to get In that case, I'm hopeful I should be able to reach focus for white light. Out of curiosity, do you have an image of the setup you use this configuration with?

Victor

[Paz]

Heres my white light set up. A small t2 extension goes on the wedge then the 2.6xgpc goes into the back of that then a larger t2 extension seals it in and the rest of the train continues. You can get it shorter than this but I choose to have a 1.25" nosepiece in front of the binoviewer with a polarising filter that I can rotate independently of the scope and the binoviewer to adjust brightness (plus a solar continuum filter). 

By the way if you happen to  have more t2 extensions or other things that can put more distance between the barlow and the binoviewers, this will increase the magnigication but also I think generate more back focus and might get you there.

Edited August 14, 2022 by Paz

[Victor Boesen]

13 minutes ago, Paz said:

Heres my white light set up. A small t2 extension goes on the wedge then the 2.6xgpc goes into the back of that then a larger t2 extension seals it in and the rest of the train continues. You can get it shorter than this but I choose to have a 1.25" nosepiece in front of the binoviewer with a polarising filter that I can rotate independently of the scope and the binoviewer to adjust brightness (plus a solar continuum filter). 

By the way if you happen to  have more t2 extensions or other things that can put more distance between the barlow and the binoviewers, this will increase the magnigication but also I think generate more back focus and might get you there.

Thanks again! I do have a Baader VIP barlow which has two 15mm extension rings so could play around with that. I will need to get the 2.6X GPC first though

Very useful information!

[BGazing]

Binos are awesome, completely transformed my Solar system viewing.

My Moon/planetary ballpark in a 100mm refractor would be around 150x. If the seeing supports, bumping up to 190x. So you can safely go up.

Any bino would do, but the polarizing effect (which matters more on solar) might differ. Nominal OCS/GPC might not be actual, so experiment, cheap plossls or some orthos would do. I'd say get something around 18mm...

[Victor Boesen]

7 hours ago, BGazing said:

Binos are awesome, completely transformed my Solar system viewing.

My Moon/planetary ballpark in a 100mm refractor would be around 150x. If the seeing supports, bumping up to 190x. So you can safely go up.

Any bino would do, but the polarizing effect (which matters more on solar) might differ. Nominal OCS/GPC might not be actual, so experiment, cheap plossls or some orthos would do. I'd say get something around 18mm...

I will definitely get another 18mm Baader Classic Ortho to make a pair of them. With that said, I'm actually surprised how well the 32mm Baader Plössl performed. Even at 83X I felt Jupiter and Saturn were quite comfortable to observe. I do, however, look forward to bumping the magnification up slightly as I felt the seeing definitely could support it.

Victor

[BGazing]

14 hours ago, Victor Boesen said:

I will definitely get another 18mm Baader Classic Ortho to make a pair of them. With that said, I'm actually surprised how well the 32mm Baader Plössl performed. Even at 83X I felt Jupiter and Saturn were quite comfortable to observe. I do, however, look forward to bumping the magnification up slightly as I felt the seeing definitely could support it.

Victor

32mm plossls are great night time bino EPs, not so much for solar, eye relief gets to long even for me, and I have recessed eyes. But, during the night, they are very, very comfortable indeed. Immersive, sort of. Never warmed up to my pair of 25mm NPL plossls...too bad Baader skipped that focal length.