Help me decide between 10"dob GSO vs Bresser

[astronotyet]

Hello everyone, hope you're all doing well.

I currently have a 4" reflector telescope that has introduced me to the amazing wonders of the universe and has served me well for many years with countless unforgettable memories. Evidently, a combination of a limited aperture and light polluted skies has left me longing for more and wanting to see more of the wonders that have been out of reach for me till now.  I have been searching for a bit more serious aperture and I feel a 10" dobsonian would a great upgrade for me. I considered an 8" for a while but I feel It would be worth it to stretch my budget a bit more and get a 10" instead. My only intent is observational and I have no interest in astrophotography.

I have shortlisted 2 options, one is 10" Professional Dobsonian by GSO and another is Bresser Messier 10" DOBSONIAN Telescope

Both options are of similar price range except one being GSO Taiwan and another one from Bresser Germany. I have seen decent reviews of the GSO but not much on Bresser, being a German brand I would expect it to be more expensive then GSO but it's not the case, leading me to wonder what am I missing. Here's a few differences between these 2 options that I have noted from the vendor's website.

1) GSO mirrors are made from BK7 glass vs Bresser ones are made from H-PZ33 low expansion glass material
2) Cooling fan in included in GSO but not included in Bresser.
3) GSO comes with a 2" dual speed 1:10 Crayford focuser vs Bresser's 2.5" Hexafoc focuser.
4) GSO comes with 30 mm 2" wide angle eyepiece with 70° fov vs Bresser's standard 25mm SuperPlössl

I very much confused on which one should I go for. In your opinion which one do you guys think is more "worth it" and will offer better optical views. I don't know the difference between BK7 vs H-PZ33 glass material to make an informed decision. 

Appreciate your help and clear skies!!

 

[vlaiv]

Hi and welcome to SGL.

Although Bresser is German vendor - it sources its scopes from far east, so telescope itself is likely to be made in China.

I don't think that you'll see drastic difference in quality of the views between the two - if any really. On average, I'd say that GSO will have very slight edge in quality of optics (based on my own experience with GSO RC scope), but sample to sample variation means that chance plays a part and if you pick any two scopes - one from Bresser and other from GSO - there is no telling which one will have slightly better mirror figure.

Largest difference between two scopes is focuser and the way scope is mounted. Bresser design allows for easy OTA detachment and use on another mount - something that might be interesting to you - but given that you are primarily visual observer - it is unlikely (very good feature for someone wishing to do both visual and for example planetary imaging with such scope and suitable tracking mount).

Bresser focuser seems to be single speed unit. It is large and uses rack and pinion which is good for stability - but not necessary for visual (helps with imaging as focuser is less likely to slip). GSO focuser is dual speed - and that is a plus in my view. Fine focusing really helps when observing planets for example. I added fine focusing unit to my 8" F/6 Dob and I imagine it will be even more useful on F/4.7 scope. Although it is crayford style focuser - for visual I don't think you'll ever experience slippage or anything like that. I know that I haven't with my 8" dob.

[Stardaze]

I have the Bresser 10” and love it, however, if I were buying new now, I’d buy the Stella Lyra version from FLO because it has all of the additions that I’ve added since as standard. You’ll want to upgrade the EP’s anyway so don’t worry about those. But the dual speed focuser, RACI finder are worth the extra little bit up front. I too wouldn’t get too hung up on the mirrors at this price, they’re more than adequate for the job. 

[JeremyS]

John Handleby will be along in a minute with some more insights  👍🏻

[johninderby]

The dual speed knob is an option for the Bresser. Quality of the Besser focuser is better than the StellaLyra.. Finder on the Bresser needs upgrading although that’s an easy job. Prefer the bearings on the Bresser. The Bresser has a good anti reflective coating inside and no need add flocking. The Bresser has a better mirror cell. 

Price for the Bresser with the dual speed option and finder upgrade aren’t much more than the StellaLyra so not much to choose between based on price.

Edited September 26, 2021 by johninderby

[fwm891]

I've had the TS/GSO 10 inch dob - really good value too.

[astronotyet]

Thanks for your inputs @vlaiv,@Stardaze,@JeremyS,@johninderby,@fwm891 really appreciate it.

I see that the Bresser one have an edge if one wants to use the scope for imaging as well. Apart from that I really liked the option of having a dual speed focuser, wide field eyepiece and a cooling fan with GSO which puts GSO a step ahead from Bresser(assuming the optical quality is similar)

Edited September 26, 2021 by astronotyet

[Tiny Clanger]

3 hours ago, astronotyet said:

Hello everyone, hope you're all doing well.

I currently have a 4" reflector telescope that has introduced me to the amazing wonders of the universe and has served me well for many years with countless unforgettable memories. Evidently, a combination of a limited aperture and light polluted skies has left me longing for more and wanting to see more of the wonders that have been out of reach for me till now.  I have been searching for a bit more serious aperture and I feel a 10" dobsonian would a great upgrade for me. I considered an 8" for a while but I feel It would be worth it to stretch my budget a bit more and get a 10" instead. My only intent is observational and I have no interest in astrophotography.

I have shortlisted 2 options, one is 10" Professional Dobsonian by GSO and another is Bresser Messier 10" DOBSONIAN Telescope

Both options are of similar price range except one being GSO Taiwan and another one from Bresser Germany. I have seen decent reviews of the GSO but not much on Bresser, being a German brand I would expect it to be more expensive then GSO but it's not the case, leading me to wonder what am I missing. Here's a few differences between these 2 options that I have noted from the vendor's website.

1) GSO mirrors are made from BK7 glass vs Bresser ones are made from H-PZ33 low expansion glass material
2) Cooling fan in included in GSO but not included in Bresser.
3) GSO comes with a 2" dual speed 1:10 Crayford focuser vs Bresser's 2.5" Hexafoc focuser.
4) GSO comes with 30 mm 2" wide angle eyepiece with 70° fov vs Bresser's standard 25mm SuperPlössl

I very much confused on which one should I go for. In your opinion which one do you guys think is more "worth it" and will offer better optical views. I don't know the difference between BK7 vs H-PZ33 glass material to make an informed decision. 

Appreciate your help and clear skies!!

 

A couple of practical points you might like to check on . First, because it's something I've researched, being a limiting factor for me,  is the weight of the ;scopes . I'd like an 8" dob., and have looked at the weights of various of the cheaper models, and found the Bresser is lighter, therefore the one I could more easily lug outside (no way can I store or handle a 10" dob on my own, and something that's a chore to set up will not get the use it deserves)

The Bresser focuser is good, I have a Bresser refractor with the same one, I don't have the upgrade though, which costs £75. As far as I know (and I've not looked at the  accessories on the 10") Bresser uses its own non standard narrow finder shoe on these 'scopes, so you may also want to factor in a suitable replacement to take a better finder, which together will add at least another £75 or so. The advantages the Bresser has for me is the weight , and the good reputation it has for the smoothness of the alt bearings .

I gave the StellaLyra 8" dobs a look when they came out, and while the accessories are a very good feature,  thoughtfully specified so there's little need to upgrade, and they look like a good step up  from the skywatcher equivalent, for me they lose out on weight. Worth a look, although as it appears you are  in India (from looking at  your links , it might help  folk give you good buying  advice if you put your approximate location with your avatar ) I don't know if a StellaLyra purchase would be more expensive for you when shipping is factored in.

Heather

 

[astronotyet]

@Tiny Clanger thanks for pointing out the weight factor, it is something I had not given much thought, I'll personally check both of the options physically by weight and ease of moving it around before I decide, and yes I am from Mumbai, India(I have now updated the profile), unfortunately there are no local vendors of StellaLyra here so importing would be more then double the cost(shipping+customs). Apart from GSO and Bresser, only other option is sky-watcher but the cost is around $120 more which is out of my budget.

[jetstream]

The Bresser has "proper" bearings IMHO and the cell looks better.

[johninderby]

Skywatcher had a huge price increase a while ago which has made their dobs much less competitive price wise..

Bresser with a custom base. 🙂

[Louis D]

GSO is GSO from Taiwan, Bresser is JOC from China, and Skywatcher is Synta from China.  If you want European or American made, you're looking at a premium Dob costing many thousands more.  To be honest, many of GSO's components are rumored to be sourced from Chinese factories for cost reasons.

I don't know if anyone has ever done a comprehensive test of the mirrors shipped with each telescope.  Usually, they're considered pretty decent, but not exceptional.

Mechanically, the Bresser/JOC will probably be best with the large altitude bearings.  I'm not a big fan of GSO's lazy Susan azimuth bearing because it can foul with ground grime and because it offers no "sticktion" to hold its position.  Teflon riding on a pebbly surface has been the gold standard used by custom Dob manufacturers for decades.  I have no idea, though, what the JOC azimuth bearing is.

I was unaware that the Bresser/JOC focuser had the ability to be upgraded to two speed, so that is a definite plus.  The GSO focuser is generally well regarded, especially as compared to the SW/Synta version.  None are going to be Feathertouch level refined, but it would cost as much as the scope as a whole in India.

At 10 inches, a proper mirror cell becomes important unless a center mounted conical mirror is used, and the JOC would seem to win out in this regard.

Don't underestimate the weight and bulk of a 10" scope as compared to an 8" scope.  It's a not insignificant increase.  That, and the f/5 mirror will be significantly more demanding on eyepieces than an f/6.  You'll also probably want to invest in a coma corrector at f/5, whereas at f/6 coma is less intrusive.

[johninderby]

Bresser uses a pebbled finish metal bearing surface and teflon pads. And a pic of the focuser.

Edited September 26, 2021 by johninderby

[astronotyet]

7 minutes ago, johninderby said:

Skywatcher had a huge price increase a while ago which has made their dobs much less competitive price wise..

Bresser with a custom base. 🙂

That custom base looks slick 👍

[astronotyet]

7 minutes ago, Louis D said:

GSO is GSO from Taiwan, Bresser is JOC from China, and Skywatcher is Synta from China.  If you want European or American made, you're looking at a premium Dob costing many thousands more.  To be honest, many of GSO's components are rumored to be sourced from Chinese factories for cost reasons.

I don't know if anyone has ever done a comprehensive test of the mirrors shipped with each telescope.  Usually, they're considered pretty decent, but not exceptional.

Mechanically, the Bresser/JOC will probably be best with the large altitude bearings.  I'm not a big fan of GSO's lazy Susan azimuth bearing because it can foul with ground grime and because it offers no "sticktion" to hold its position.  Teflon riding on a pebbly surface has been the gold standard used by custom Dob manufacturers for decades.  I have no idea, though, what the JOC azimuth bearing is.

I was unaware that the Bresser/JOC focuser had the ability to be upgraded to two speed, so that is a definite plus.  The GSO focuser is generally well regarded, especially as compared to the SW/Synta version.  None are going to be Feathertouch level refined, but it would cost as much as the scope as a whole in India.

At 10 inches, a proper mirror cell becomes important unless a center mounted conical mirror is used, and the JOC would seem to win out in this regard.

Don't underestimate the weight and bulk of a 10" scope as compared to an 8" scope.  It's a not insignificant increase.  That, and the f/5 mirror will be significantly more demanding on eyepieces than an f/6.  You'll also probably want to invest in a coma corrector at f/5, whereas at f/6 coma is less intrusive.

Noted your point about mirror cell and bearing, will do more research into it. Also, I just compared the weight between 8" and 10" dobs(both GSO and Bresser) It does seems like a significant difference, enough for me to reconsider since I'll have to carry it around and setup it all up by myself.  You've been very insightful.

[johninderby]

Both scopes are very good scopes so either would be a good choice but have to admit I like the Bresser better. 

[Stardaze]

Just a point on weight, I’m suffering with a long term stomach injury which means I can’t lift mine so, I’ve bought a sack truck with a longer foldable base. Very easy to use, though I just need to make an infill for the top. At the moment I’m stuffing a garden cushion in there. I’ve also had to make a ramp too. 
 

By the way, once you buy a dob, there’s endless upgrades. So far I’ve added the RACI, Telrad, dual speed focuser, handle, dew kit, cover for outside and the best was the click lock. Going to add a fan next year when I’ll probably clean the mirror.

[astronotyet]

45 minutes ago, johninderby said:

Bresser uses a pebbled finish metal bearing surface and teflon pads. And a pic of the focuser.

I see you've got a dual speed focuser, how much did the upgrade cost?

[astronotyet]

16 minutes ago, Stardaze said:

Just a point on weight, I’m suffering with a long term stomach injury which means I can’t lift mine so, I’ve bought a sack truck with a longer foldable base. Very easy to use, though I just need to make an infill for the top. At the moment I’m stuffing a garden cushion in there. I’ve also had to make a ramp too. 
 

By the way, once you buy a dob, there’s endless upgrades. So far I’ve added the RACI, Telrad, dual speed focuser, handle, dew kit, cover for outside and the best was the click lock. Going to add a fan next year when I’ll probably clean the mirror.

That's a nice set of upgrades, I'll probably get the telrad too in future and the sack truck is an excellent idea 👍

[johninderby]

£75.00

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/bresser-telescopes/bresser-messier-1-10-gear-set-for-hex-focuser.html

It's a simple job to install it but important to follow the instructions as many skip the step about fitting the extra grub screw which means  it won’t work properly.

Edited September 26, 2021 by johninderby

[Tiny Clanger]

6 minutes ago, astronotyet said:

I see you've got a dual speed focuser, how much did the upgrade cost?

As  I said above, the hexafocus upgrade is £75 here, but you will need to check your local supplier's prices. The Bresser finder on the dob you linked to is the same as the one which came with my Bresser refractor, and it is of very little use, I'm sure you would want to replace it, possibly with a right angled finder which means you do not have to do acrobatics to sight through it.

These telescope packages are built to sell at a price point, and each has particular advantages over the competition which can be advertised (while they keep quieter about the places where they have saved money ! ) you have to decide what features are important to you , and work out the added cost of any upgrades you think you will need. I've not studied the GSO , it's not something  I've seen available new during the past year here in the UK, so I have been comparing the Bresser to the StellaLyra and Skywatcher , and decided the better bearings and lower weight mean that when funds and stocks allow, it will be the Bresser that I buy.  I know I can manage without the focus upgrade for a while, and add it later, I have a suitable replacement finder shoe and can swap a finder I already have over to it when I need to.

Heather

[Louis D]

@Tiny ClangerIf you've studied the StellaLyra, you've studied the GSO.  They're the same.  They're sold around the world under many different brand names (Apertura/Zhumell in US).  Just like the JOC Dob is sold as Explore Scientific and Synta is sold as Orion as well as Sky-Watcher in the US.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Louis D

[Stardaze]

4 hours ago, astronotyet said:

That's a nice set of upgrades, I'll probably get the telrad too in future and the sack truck is an excellent idea 👍

The telrad (or Rigel) is a must imho. That and a RACI work perfectly together. 

The collimation kit also needs to be added of course. 

Edited September 26, 2021 by Stardaze

[Second Time Around]

IMHO the mount is one of the most important parts of any scope.  You can easily upgrade almost everything else on a Dob, but it's much harder to get an upgraded mount at low cost unless you build your own.

Before I bought my scopes I spent a lot of time in showrooms comparing various Dobs, including a GSO and the Bresser.  Like others, I much preferred the smoothness of the Bresser mount and found it easier to use.  

Two additional factors are that it's much easier to carry the tube of the Bresser because you can use the altitude rings.  In fact you can easily carry the tube in one hand.  You can also easily rebalance the tube when adding equipment, and to a greater degree than with the GSO.

Most Dob owners upgrade their scopes before long, either by upgrading the components or by adding accessories.   With the GSO you'll probably want to flock the tube to cut out stray light, whilst the Bresser is already flocked.  Another consideration is how quickly the scope will reach the outside temperature and so be ready to observe.  To help this the GSO has a fan, whilst the main mirror of the Bresser is made from low expansion glass.  You can easily and cheaply add a fan to the Bresser to get the best of both worlds, whereas changing the mirror would be extremely expensive.

The chances are that you'll upgrade to a RACI finder to avoid getting a crick in the neck.  Neither of the two scopes you've linked to in India include a RACI finder. However, the GSO-made StellaLyra sold by UK retailer First Light Optics does.

It's almost certain you'll upgrade the eyepieces in due course.  The 30mm Erfle eyepiece supplied with the GSO has a wider field of view that'll make it easier to find objects, but at f/5 won't be as sharp as the Plossl, so swings and roundabouts here.

However, the 30mm eyepiece gives an exit pupil (aperture divided by magnification) of 6.1mm that may be too low a magnification for you.  This is because if the exit pupil is larger than the pupil of your eye you won't be seeing all the light, so effectively you'll have a smaller aperture scope.  Maximum pupil size varies hugely from person to person, but typically is 7mm for youngsters reducing to 5mm or less for older folk.  Additionally, these figures are at dark sites; if you're observing from a city your pupil is unlikely to open up to 6.1mm anyway.

I think it can be summed up by saying that the GSO package is very good initial value for money, whilst the Bresser is a better design.  The difference in cost is very small, and in percentage terms will be even smaller once you've done all the upgrades that most people do.  But even after the upgrades the Bresser will still have the better mount.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Second Time Around

[Pixies]

Availability might be a determining factor. Both are showing as out-of-stock on FLO just now. Bresser 60-90 working days and StellaLyra 90-120 working days.