Trouble Finding Things In the Night Sky

[charlesdinger18]

Hi guys, new member here. I am an amateur astronomer and I am having a big struggle using my telescope and I do not know what the issue is. Here is what I have:

 

Telescope:

Dobsonion xt8

 

Lenses:

25mm plossl (came with scope)

Celestron 8-24mm zoom eyepiece

6mm 66° “gold line” planetary eyepiece

2x Barlow

 

I went out tonight for about 3 hours. Mars was out, but I couldnt get a decent view of it no matter what I tried, it just looked like an orange star but a bit brighter. I was kind of confused because I feel like I had the eyepieces and telescope to support seeing Mars but nothing I tried worked. I also tried to find Orion's Nebula, and I found something... but not what I was really expecting. I attached some low quality photos, one photo turned our slightly red and one blue for some reason? It seemed completely gray from what I saw but any advice would be amazing, I really need help with this. And also I dont really speak telescope or astronomy yet so easy language would be appreciated! Thank you!

 

[Stu1smartcookie]

Hi , welcome to SGL.. 

You are not doing anything wrong ... don't worry    , You have a fine scope .

 Firstly any deep sky object , like a nebula or a galaxy will just appear as a gray smudge . Also observing from a light polluted area will also affect what you see . Plus you  know those photos you see in astronomy mags and the wonderful photos you see on YouTube channels like AstroBackyard ?.. well they take long a long time to process, and are captured by long exposures from cameras on  mounts that use tracking devices , so , you will NEVER see images like that through a telescope. As for Mars ... well , last September and October the planet was at its nearest to Earth , even then it was still a difficult planet to observe and show detail ( although through your scope you would have had good views) . Now its moving away from us and therefore you will not see much detail ,in fact it does look like a bright star , showing as a disc when you use a higher powered Eye Piece . 

A last point ( i didnt really want to mention this now ) is that your scope is a reflector and as such may need to be collimated . That means the mirrors need to be aligned with each other and the focuser r=to produce a sharp image . Please don't fret about this ! Read about it on SGL ... there will be lots of people to give you advice . 

 

[Capt Slog]

If I managed to get a photo like those, I'd be quite happy! 

Okay, they are not the sharp images that you see in books, which as Stu says above are the product of hours of work, but they are images which you can use to compare to other sources.  How did you take them?

[Spile]

This page will give you a better idea of what you can see through an eyepiece.

http://www.deepskywatch.com/Articles/what-can-i-see-through-telescope.html

Perhaps it is not what you were expecting, but for me, seeing live the brightness of the trapezium in Orion, the jewels of the  double cluster near Cassiopeia or the gold and green/blue of the binary Almach in Andromeda knock spots of any digital photo I have seen. 

I would stick with it.

[Tiny Clanger]

I agree with all the above, and add it is not easy to find your way around the sky to start off with, a bit like arriving in London without any sort of map and no idea of the scale of the place !

Were you using a printed map, or some sort of app or online program to track down your targets? If it was a small printed map, only the brightest starts can be shown, and the view through the eyepiece (fabulously full  of stars as it may be) may be difficult to reconcile with the map, especially as the view in a reflector is upside down !

A few things to check through to get you pointing the right way :  first, ensure you have accurately aligned your finder , whatever type it is. Do this in the daylight. I typed out a long 'how to'post on this a while back, I'll see if I can find it and provide a link later.

Second, get yourself a good app or desktop sky map which you can pan and zoom,  and add an overlay of a grid which will allow you to judge the angle between onjects. A good one will even allow you to show exactly what you should see in the eyepiece of your specific kit (I like stellarium, which has an ocular view plugin, but there are plenty of others)

Third, to roughly approximate angles in the sky, your closed fist at arms length from knuckle to knuckle is about 10 degrees, Orion's Belt is about 3 degrees across. There's a 'handy guide' (groan) here https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/measuring-the-sky-by-hand.html

I've a sneaky suspicion that the orange thing you found might just have been the bright reddish coloured star Aldebaran,  which last night was around 15 degrees east of Mars  and at about  the same elevation above the horizon ( altitude to use the proper term)

Don't get frustrated, don't give up, you will get this sorted , and the rewards are worth the effort, honest !

Heather

[Tiny Clanger]

OK, found my guide to aligning a finder , yours might be an RDF (red dot finder) or an optical  finder like a tiny telescope) , whichever it is, the procedure is the same: you are simply matching the view between finder and telecope as accurately as possible.

 

[Orange Smartie]

Hi Charles and welcome. 

Fellow beginner here. If you haven't already got it, I'd strongly recommend buying a copy of "Turn Left at Orion". It will help you become more familiar with what's up there in the night sky (clouds, currently for me) and perhaps most importantly, what everything will look like in your telescope. The examples they give are all shown from the perspective of a small refractor and an 8 inch dobsonian, so you'll know exactly what you should be seeing, assuming the viewing conditions are suitable. 

You've probably already noticed that this forum is the most helpful and friendly and you shouldn't be afraid to ask any questions. We all started somewhere!

Pete

[charlesdinger18]

Thanks everyone for the advice,

I do own turn left at orion, it can be a bit hard to use at times but for the most part I love it! I also own SkySafari and Stellarium, great suggestions as well! I guess I just did not know what to expect, I just wanted to be sure I wasnt do it wrong because literally every picture online for Orion's Nebula is red, pretty deceiving.  I took these imagines with my iPhone 11. I guess I should just collimate my telescope and keep searching, also thank you so much for those links guys, they will come in handy because generally I do not know what I am supposed to be looking for so I get confused.

Charles

[Kon]

Have a look at this link as well regarding how things will show:

The link is pretty spot on, on how things will appear. Your mobile phone image is pretty good on M42. Make sure you observe after you have been in the dark for a good 30min or so. Moon will also washout many of the DSOs so a new moon will be better for them. Happy viewing!

[Waddensky]

There's no issue! You have a great scope and you've found Mars and the Orion Nebula: congratulations! The links in this thread are great to get an idea of what to expect, and as said, don't let the pictures you find online fool you, things are different when looking through the eyepiece - but you'll appreciate these views soon enough. Just keep on practicing, you will see more detail and fainter things as you build up experience. Enjoy and don't hesitate to ask questions here if they pop up.

[John]

I think finding things in the sky and having an idea of whether or not what they have found is what they were looking for are the most challenging aspects of beginning visual astronomy.

Most images online or in publications are very misleading when it comes to giving an idea of what a target object might actually look like visually through the eyepiece.

This website is more help and aims to try and get quite close to what you will actually see. Even then, it is a little optimistic for those who lack experience and / or who observe under light polluted skies. But it is better than images I think:

http://www.deepskywatch.com/Articles/what-can-i-see-through-telescope.html

 

[Nicola Fletcher]

Hi Charles,

I’m still learning (but faster thanks to the great people on this forum) and also learning to speak telescope too 😊

You’ve already got some great advice from people much more experienced than me, but I have found that really spending time looking at the same thing for a while and practicing looking at it with my peripheral vision brings out much more detail than you can see at first glance. The magic of knowing that, even though you can’t see Hubble-quality images, what you’re seeing is real and right then and there, is my favourite part of observing. And yeah, I was disappointed by Mars the first time I saw it too. Jupiter and Saturn are pretty Wow if you haven’t seen them yet!

Good luck and enjoy!

[Soligor Rob]

Hi Charles and welcome to SGL.

I also am a newcomer to the world of the night sky, Heather gave an excellent analogy using "It's a bit like London" I used to live their as a child and when my friends now ask how do I find my way around such a massive area I tell them Don't look at the whole area instead treat it as lots of little areas, well do the same with the night sky, break it up in small parts and enjoy searching through that area rather than jumping about all over the place.

Orion is an excellent place to start with patience there is so much to see.

Good luck and enjoy.

[dannybgoode]

Mars is deeply disappointing for most visual observers. It is as you describe most oftentimes just a orange dot that looks very much like a star but a bit bigger. But think about what you're looking at and how far away it is and it becomes more magical, in my mind at least. 

You found M42 also and managed a photo of it which is recognisable and that is an achievement. I struggle to find targets manually so cheat and computerise the whole process but that throws up a whole load more issues and frustrations, not to mention cost.

Wait until Jupiter and Saturn are visible though. Boy are you in for a treat then. Don't overlook some close up lunar observations too. The moon can be truly captivating

[Nicola Fletcher]

13 hours ago, dannybgoode said:

Mars is deeply disappointing for most visual observers. It is as you describe most oftentimes just a orange dot that looks very much like a star but a bit bigger. But think about what you're looking at and how far away it is and it becomes more magical, in my mind at least. 

You found M42 also and managed a photo of it which is recognisable and that is an achievement. I struggle to find targets manually so cheat and computerise the whole process but that throws up a whole load more issues and frustrations, not to mention cost.

Wait until Jupiter and Saturn are visible though. Boy are you in for a treat then. Don't overlook some close up lunar observations too. The moon can be truly captivating

@dannybgoode do you know why Mars is so much less impressive than Saturn - is it because of the colour of Mars or because it’s less bright than Saturn? This composite image of the planets from the Backyard Astronomer’s Guide shows that Mars and Saturn aren’t that different in apparent size. I know Saturn’s rings would make it appear bigger but I still don’t see why the two planets should be so different to view.

[dannybgoode]

1 hour ago, Nicola Fletcher said:

@dannybgoode do you know why Mars is so much less impressive than Saturn - is it because of the colour of Mars or because it’s less bright than Saturn? This composite image of the planets from the Backyard Astronomer’s Guide shows that Mars and Saturn aren’t that different in apparent size. I know Saturn’s rings would make it appear bigger but I still don’t see why the two planets should be so different to view.

Personally I think that apparent view is misleading - I have never seen Mars look a similar size to Saturn but it could be mind playing tricks of course.  I think the issue is twofold; Mars is just a red dot through most scopes - you need a really good scope with quality EP's and a fair bit of magnification for to be anything else..  Saturn on the other hand has rings, rings everyone knows about - even people with absolutely no interest in astronomy knows that  - rings that everyone has seen photos of and then bam, there they are in your eyepiece.  I do not know anyone who has seen the view for the first time not get giddy about that.  It is just so unexpected that through even a fairly modest scope in someone's back yard you can see the rings.

Secondly, and this in conjunction with the first, I think it's expectation.  We have this view of Mars of being almost Earth-like and full of mystery.  It is the planet that science fiction is built on and yet when you see it.  Meh.  I think people expect to see features and stuff - a bit like the photos from space we see of Earth - and be able to imagine little aliens trotting around and no, just a red dot.  It is the planet I think beginners have the most expectation of and it just lets them down.

To be honest Mars let me down when I first started and I haven't been back for a second look.  Now I have a good frac though I will at least revisit it to see if I can discern some features on it however if I had only an hour of scope time and both Saturn and Mars where visible I know what I would spend my time doing

[Pixies]

Mars is currently 6.2 arcseconds in diameter. It was over 22 arcseconds back in October during conjunction.

Here are the ranges for these 3 planets:

Mars can be as big as Saturn - but mostly is smaller, and often much smaller.

[Pixies]

For reference - the above was taken from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angular_diameter

Here are some nice graphs from CN:

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/619945-mars-angular-size-some-plots/

They really do show how Mars is pretty tiny most of the time. Even at opposition, the maximum size varies greatly.

 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Pixies

[Tiny Clanger]

When comparing the two remember that one is a planet where you are seeing a rocky surface with dark markings through a very thin atmosphere, whilst on the other we  see the top of a reflective atmosphere of hydrogen & helium.

Also, whilst the sizes shown are no doubt accurate mathematical comparisons, don't forget the solar system s dynamic, and the apparent size to us of a planet depends on where it is on its orbit compared to ours. Mars was close enough to Earth in the summer for even my beginner telescope and cheap eyepieces to show me several surface features, including what turned out to be a dust storm in progress  . It took hours of persistence, and a lucky few minutes' burst of good seeing, and I didn't actually  know what I had seen until I came indoors to write up my observing notes, logged in here, and found the marking I'd observed ( and which did not match what Mars Mapper had suggested I should be seeing) being talked about as a dust storm .  I'm still quite excited about that, months later !

The equipment I had at that time was not particularly ideal for planetary use the dust storm was seen with a £200 heritage 150 dob ,  a £20  17mm skywatcher plossl and cheap far eastern orange filter from a suburban back garden. It was part of what persuaded me to buy a longer focal length 'scope specifically for use viewing the planets (and the Moon)

I've found I need to be patient : there are parts of the sky from my garden which have too much skyglow to be worth looking at things when they are in that part of the sky. Any object lower than around 20 degrees altitude minimum will not be worth spending much time on. A planet too low or too distant because of its orbit is not worth spending too  much time on. Wait until objects are in favourable places and distances : that's the beauty of this game :  most stuff comes round again (OK, so comets, you may wait a while ...)

Heather

[Louis D]

Wait for Mars to come back around to opposition in 2 years (December 8th, 2022).  It looked terrific through my 8" Dob with binoviewers last fall.  I could make out lots of light/dark details very much like the below images.  It was amazing, but fleetingly quick.

Most of the previous recent Mars oppositions were ruined by global dust storms on Mars that obscured all details, so hopefully 2022 will be more like 2020's opposition.

[Nicola Fletcher]

Thank you @Louis D for such beautiful images and @Tiny Clanger, @Pixies and @dannybgoode for your thoughts. I’ve been watching it regularly since early December and I thought my new 4” frac would give better views of Mars than my 127 Mak - but of course there are lots of considerations apart from size. I’ll keep an eye out over the next couple of years. Thanks also for the really cool links!