New starter - after help deciding between Takahashi FC-76DCU & FC-100DC

[Surfer Chris]

Hello from sunny Dorset!

This is my first post on SGL (joined yesterday). I have been reading through posts on this website for a several weeks now, and it has been very helpful, providing me with a lot of information. So thanks very much!

I am essentially a newcomer to this hobby, apart from some limited experience using a cheap 60mm Tasco refractor and a 115mm Tasco reflector many years ago as a teenager (some 25+ years ago). When I was a teenager, I did enjoy using these scopes but always looked forward to the day when I might be able to afford to get a better quality scope. Fast forward to 2020, and I suddenly got the urge to get back into it and get that scope I always wanted. Fortunately, I live in rural (central) Dorset, in a small village - with no street lights. So often I am lucky to have what appears to be fairly dark skies with the milky way frequently looking nice and bright.

After a lot of reading up, I decided that I wanted to go down the refractor route. This is partly because I remember that I always enjoyed the views in the 60mm refractor over the 115mm reflector (all those years ago), but also because a lightweight grab & go refractor seems to fit in more with my current lifestyle. I currently work a lot (at home), having both a full time day job & then do additional free-lance work most evenings. I also have two young kids. So I picture my observations being limited to very quick sessions, whereby I quickly grab a set-up, lift it out through our patio doors into the garden, do 30-60 mins observing, then come back in again. I wanted a set-up that is fairly compact - so that I can leave it set-up in our dining room without being nagged too much for it being in the way!

As I have been so extremely busy with work over the last few years (which has helped the financial side of things), I decided that I would treat myself and go down the route of a higher quality refractor (favouring optical quality over aperture). So that you know, my intention is that this scope would be my one and only scope (so it needs to be a good all-rounder). I don't really have space available for multiple scopes - plus I do have other hobbies so would prefer on good all round scope. I was kind of hoping to get a really nice quality scope that could be something I keep for life.

In terms of what I am looking to observe - at the moment I have an urge to look at planets and the moon. No doubt I will want to look at DSO's too once I have a scope, but planetary and lunar were the original drivers.

Anyway, having liked what I had read about Takahashi refractors, I have basically narrowed it down to either a FC-76DCU or a FC-100DC.

But - I am now having difficulty deciding which one of these two scopes I should go for - hence I thought I would seek some advice from some better experienced people on SGL. 

As I want this to be a 'grab & go' set-up, I have opted for a lightweight Alt-az mount. The set-up I am currently looking to purchase consists of the following kit;

• Either Takahahsi FC-76DCU of FC100DC
• Berlebach Report 312 Tripod
• Scopetech Mount Zero
• Takahashi 1.25" prism diagonal
• Tak Abbe Ortho 6mm eyepiece
• Tak Abbe Ortho 12.5mm eyepiece
• Either Televue Panoptic 19mm or 24mm

From the reading I have done, it seems that most people suggest going down the route of a 4" refractor is looking for a one and only scope (with a 4" offering an optimum capability in average UK seeing, yet still just about portable enough to not be inconvenient). Initially, I was leaning towards getting the FC-76DCU. I was informed that this would probably be quite close to the performance of a lot of 100ED (4" refractor) scope anyway, yet it would also provide something that is a lot lighter and more fun to mount and handle.

In terms of package costs, it is working out to be around £2850 for the 76DCU option, vs £3650 for the 100DC. So although the 100DC scope itself is a lot more than the 76DCU, in terms of the entire package, the FC100DC option is only 28% more cost.

So I am really struggling to decide if I should pay the 28% extra and get the 100DC. As a percentage, 28% doesn't seem too much - but then again it still represents £800 which is still a lot of money which the family would probably rather I spend on them!

The things I am currently struggling with in making my decision are;

1. If I go with the FC-76DCU, will I be disappointed with views? As a minimum I am hoping to be able to make out coloured belts & GRS on Jupiter and hopefully be able to make out the Cassini division on Saturn when they are back in a good position? Would be great if I could make out an ice cap on Mars too. In my Tasco scopes many years ago, Jupiter only ever appeared as a small cream disk with no features at all.
2. Would the FC-76DCU generally work better on days of poor-medium seeing compared to the FC-100DC- therefore offering me more sessions per year?
3. Would the 100DC be too heavy for the Scopetech mount? The Scopetech seems to claim 7kg capacity. The FC-100DC fitted with clamp and eyepieces etc. will probably be about 4kg. I am wondering if the mount stability offered by the lower weight of the 76DCU would in some ways compensate for the reduced aperture offered by the FC-100DC, thereby giving a more pleasing vibration free image? 
4. As a newbie, would one of these scopes be easier to get on with than the other?
5. Does the split tube of the 76DCU compromise the optical quality in any way - e.g. does the threaded mid-tube connection potentially cause misalignment issues in the scope between eyepiece and objective - therefore am I better going with the one-piece FC-100DC?
6. If for some reason I found myself in a position where I had to sell the kit in the future, is one of these scopes going to be significantly easier to sell than the other?

Sorry for the lengthy post. Thought I would provide you with all the facts upfront.

Any opinions to help me make my decision would be very welcome - otherwise it will probably come down to flipping a coin!

Thanks,

Chris 

[mikeDnight]

Hi Chris,

  If finances allow, I think you should go for the FC100DC. It is remarkably lightweight and an absolute joy to use. As 4" refractors go, you'll be hard pushed to find anything on the market that is better visually. I could, and have, waxed lyrical about this amazing refractor in the past, but for the sake of my fellow SGLers sanity I'll keep it short.   The DC is bright, vibrant and powerful, and is a terrific all round performer that is a good choice as an only scope.   If you want to cut the over all cost, its worth knowing that a Skywatcher 1.25" steel tripod would carry this scope very solidly, and is a much cheaper option than a Berlebach.   

  To illustrate the physical size of the FC100DC, I've attached a pic of myself stood alongside mine. I'm 6 ft 1" tall, so you can see the scope is quite small.  In my case, I can carry the entire scope, AZ4 mount and tripod with one hand.  Of course, the tripod can be lowered so as to occupy less floor space in the dinning room.

Any Takahashi telescope will hold its price well as regards resale value.  And although they are viewed as pricey,  if you look at the over all cost compared to other hobbies, the outlay soon pales into insignificance over time. For example,  20 years ago, a friend told me he paid £1000 per year to be a member of a local golf club, and a further £15 for each game he wanted to play.  With the Tak its a one off payment and you're a member of the Tak owners club for life. 

[dweller25]

Hello Chris and welcome to SGL.

For all aspects of visual astronomy the 4” refractor will be better than the 3” in terms of detail shown and light gathering.

The Takahashi FC100-DC is a scope for life and in my opinion worth every penny for both the quick cool down, zero collimation requirement, pin sharp views and joy of ownership.

It is also very light so can be used on an AZ4 as @mikeDnight shows or on a lightweight motor driven EQ5 type equatorial mount as I use.

I recently bought the FC100 due to it’s light weight - I have a bad back. It is very easy to handle. 

My observing pattern matches exactly what you want to do.

The views are superb. You can see Mikes and my recent drawings of Mars in the sketching section - the Martian polar cap was easy at opposition as will all the other want to see items in your wish list will be.....

 

 

 

Edited February 6, 2021 by dweller25

[RT65CB-SWL]

Hi @Surfer Chris and welcome to SGL. 

As per @mikeDnight - if you have the finances to purchase the Takahashi FC100DC over the FC76DCU then go for it. For serious planetary observing, 4" aperture for a refractor is the minimum.

Twenty plus years ago [i.e. 1998... eclipse fever, etc.] I was in a dilemma of buying a Meade ETX90 or TeleVue Ranger as my previous 'scopes were purchased from the high street. I wanted something better than the 50 or 60mm refractors that I had used previously. In the end I the end I chose the TeleVue Ranger. Why? because I 'fell in love with it' when I saw the images in the S&T adverts. Fortunately for me the astro-dealer where I had purchased it from had both for sale so I was able to try them before making my mind up. I also wanted something that was lightweight, takes up very little storage space, was airline friendly, as I was going to Bulgaria to view the 1999 solar eclipse. I still have and use it.

Several years later I purchased a Meade ETX105 [OTA only] which has since been 're-modded' following a mishap, but still is operational... if anything slightly better IMHO, and then I purchased a C6/SCT as I thought my ETX105 was beyond repair.

Below are images of my 're-modded' ETX105 and TeleVue Ranger mounted on a DwarfStar alt-az mount and camera tripod, (third image shown using a photo ball-head), for grab & go... and my alt-az mounts when I dual-mount.

 

[jock1958]

Wise words from @mikeDnight.

When I re-entered this hobby some 5 years ago I wanted a fairly light weight setup that I could leave assembled in the dining room that wouldn't annoy my other half to much and be easily transportable into the garden, I eventually opted for a Tak FC-100DL mounted on a Skytee 2 & AZ4 tripod (steel legs) which for me is excellent, basically steady views with minimum vibration. 

Also recently acquired was a second hand Scopetech Zero mount for my mini Tak FS-60 and this combination works great, however I haven't tried the Scopetech with the FC-100DL but suspect there would be vibration at high magnification due to the difference in size and mass of the two mounts,  a DC might cope better due to a weight advantage and shorter tube length, others might chip in about this @Stu?
 

Couple of pictures below for comparison of my FC-100DL & FS-60.

Edited February 6, 2021 by jock1958

[JeremyS]

6 hours ago, Surfer Chris said:

• Either Takahahsi FC-76DCU 
• Berlebach Report 312 Tripod
• Scopetech Mount Zero
• Takahashi 1.25" prism diagonal

Something like this? 

The Takahahsi FC-76DCU is a great scope and sits perfectly on the ScopeTech Zero. It's a wonderful travel scope, especialy as it's easily airline portable thanks to the fact the tube splits into two.

But as Mike and others say, the FC100 will show you much more if you can stretch to that. I have the FC100 DZ. Its sits in the ScopeTech but is on the heavy end. The DC is a bit lighter, of course

Edited February 6, 2021 by JeremyS

[John]

Just to add another vote for the 100mm aperture here.

I've owned a few refractors of 70mm, 80mm and 90mm over the years but just didn't feel satisfied with the views even though they were nice a light weight scopes.

My smallest aperture refractor is now the Takahashi FC100-DL but the DC is both lighter and shorter with little or no compromise in optical performance so I'm sure it would serve you very well.

The views of deep sky objects are of course limited in any 100mm scope but I'm sure you are aware of that.

 

[Surfer Chris]

Thanks very much guys for the kind welcome and really helpful responses. I have just been out with the kids in the sunshine washing the cars for the last couple of hours.

Well that's 4 out of 4 saying to go with the Takahashi FC-100DC, so that's good enough for me! It has given me the confidence to go ahead and place the order for the 100DC which I have just done. I think it was what my gut was telling me to do all along - but my sensible head was telling me that I could go with the 76DCU and put the extra £780 to use in clearing a tiny amount off the mortgage. Annoyingly, I have spent so much time stressing and thinking about it over the last few weeks that I could probably have spent that time working and earned the difference by now!!!

Now that I have that dream scope on order though - I will have a good incentive to put that extra effort into doing a few more hours work and hopefully soon earn the extra I am paying out.

I am hoping the Scopetech Zero will cope OK. I did see a video on YouTube comparing Scopetech Zero against a Vixen Portamount. In that video it appeared that a FC-100DC was being used OK. And the guys at FLO suggested it should be OK too.

Next dilemma for me is the eyepieces!

Initially I was looking at Tak Abbe Orthos, and the guys at FLO said that they are good for planetary. So I was going to perhaps try a 4mm or a 6mm to start with (probably 6mm). I figured just try one, if I get on with it OK, I can then always order another size immediately after.

I was also thinking about either the 19mm or 24mm Televue Panoptic for low power wide views. Can I ask, do any of you use a Televue Panoptic for your FC-100's? If yes, would you go for the 24mm or 19mm if you had to choose one?

And can I ask - are the Tak diagonals workable with the Televue eyepieces in your opinion? I have read a lot of posts with people complaining of issues with eyepiece undercuts not working well with Tak diagonals. Some seem to say this issue is unbearably annoying, some say it is not that bad and you can simply get around it by either not inserting the eyepiece fully (maybe using parfocal rings to hold the EP up), or reversing the compression rings in the diagonal.

I did briefly consider a Baader Prism diagonal too, but especially now that I have committed to the more expensive scope, it would be nice to be able to use the cheaper Tak prism diagonal if I can do so without too much frustration. I have seen that apparently both the Tak and Baader prism diagonals are of a similar optical quality.

[John]

I use a Panoptic 24mm with my FC100-DL it it works very well indeed. It provides the widest views in the 1.25 inch format. I don't use 2 inch eyepieces with the Tak. I use the Baader T2 Zeiss prism with the scope and again that was a sound choice. I think the Tak prism is good as well, just not as well made as the Baader. I'm not that keen on the Tak compression collar approach so I prefer the Baader click-lock for holding eyepieces.

Others will have their preferences though, those are just mine

These scopes thrive on high magnifications. You will certainly find that you get a lot of use from a 4mm eyepiece as well as the 6mm. I have a 2-4mm Nagler zoom that gets used in my FC100 very often - far more than I thought it would !

 

 

 

[Surfer Chris]

Hi Jeremy & John. Sorry I have only just seen your replies after submitting my last. Thanks very much for your kind input too.

Well that's 6 out of 6 - even more conclusive!

Yes, your set-up looks exactly what I was hoping for Jeremy. I think the combination of Tak plus wood Berlebach looks really good. But to be honest - all of these scopes look so nice!

I do like the streamlined look of the 76DCU, and can definitely see that advantage for those who travel. Unfortunately, I have a terrible fear of flying and consequently don't do a lot of overseas travelling - hence no need for me to have that ultra portability that the FC-76DCU offers.

[Surfer Chris]

Thanks John. From the reading I have done - it does seem that the 24mm Panoptic is quite a popular choice. 

I was very keen on the look of the Baader prisms and their click-lock mechanism. And there does seem to be an opinion that they may perhaps work better with dreaded undercuts? If money was no object then I would pick the Baader...but seeing as I have just spent the larger amount on a scope, it would be nice if I could get on with the cheaper Tak prism. 

[John]

1 minute ago, Surfer Chris said:

Thanks John. From the reading I have done - it does seem that the 24mm Panoptic is quite a popular choice. 

I was very keen on the look of the Baader prisms and their click-lock mechanism. And there does seem to be an opinion that they may perhaps work better with dreaded undercuts? If money was no object then I would pick the Baader...but seeing as I have just spent the larger amount on a scope, it would be nice if I could get on with the cheaper Tak prism. 

Why not give it a go and see how you get on with the Tak prism ?. You can always sell it on and move to a Baader easily enough. Tak stuff sells pretty well on the used market.

 

[Surfer Chris]

Yeah that's kind of what I was thinking.

[Ricochet]

I think that you should rethink your eyepiece choices. Any ortho eyepiece will have a narrow field of view and at shorter focal lengths an utterly miserable eye relief that is just not nice to use. Baader Morpheus, Pentax XW and Televue Delite/Delos will all give you planetary views just as good as the orthos but with a much more comfortable eye relief. 

[Surfer Chris]

Jeremy - you say the 100DZ is on the heavy end. Do you find it still OK to use on the Scopetech Zero though?

I guess the 100DC @2.8kg sits half way between the 76DCU (1.8kg) and 100DZ (3.8kg). So hopefully the 100DC will be OK on the Scopetech Zero if you find the 100DZ manageable on it.

[Stu]

@Surfer Chris I’m very late to the party, but can also recommend the FC100DC wholeheartedly. It is an amazing scope; so lightweight and portable given how capable it is. The DL and DZ may have a tiny optical edge but I suspect in real world use there is little between them. I chose a DC because of its lightweight and shorter length.

On the portability front, you can remove the dewshield and focuser and it will go in carry on baggage if you do overcome your fear of flying. I took mine to the States a year or so back with no trouble.

I’m also sure the Scopetech mount will handle it fine. I have one and have used it quite happily, even with heavier and longer scopes it is fine. Providing you have a decent tripod then all should be well. I use a Gitzo as it is nice and portable, but a Berlebach would work very well too.

The Tak Prism is nice, but I agree with John about the compression fitting not being ideal. I had to tape up the undercut in my 24mm Panoptic because it always got jammed in the Tak prism. I would recommend a Baader Zeiss T2 prism which is a better overall solution, although much more costly! I do use a 2” diagonal and 2” eyepieces in my Tak as I enjoy widefield views. With a 31mm Nagler you can get about 3.5 degrees which is great on the Veil and North America Nebula.

I have fitted a Feathertouch to mine, and do enjoy the extra finesse available with the fine focus; to me it completes the scope beautifully.

One last point. They are also fabulous solar scopes. Get yourself a Baader Coolwedge if you can and you will get beautiful white light solar views 👍👍

It’s only money 🤣🤣🤣

[JeremyS]

2 hours ago, Surfer Chris said:

Jeremy - you say the 100DZ is on the heavy end. Do you find it still OK to use on the Scopetech Zero though?

I guess the 100DC @2.8kg sits half way between the 76DCU (1.8kg) and 100DZ (3.8kg). So hopefully the 100DC will be OK on the Scopetech Zero if you find the 100DZ manageable on it.

Yes I think it will be fine on the Zero.

As said elsewhere, the Pan 24 is a cracking eyepiece. For high power planetary, I’d go for wider field eyepieces than orthos. Orthos will excel optically but with an undriven mount they are a bit irritating 

The Tak prism is lovely. It’s also lightweight. Go for the T2 diagonal if you can afford, but otherwise don’t rule out the Tak. Undercuts are indeed the invention of the devil, but they are not the end of the world.

Oh: Tak and Berlebach are a marriage made in heaven no matter what the devil might be doing with his undercuts.

You have made a wise decision with eye FC100 DC 👍

[dweller25]

Congratulations @Surfer Chris 🔭👍

I tried many diagonals and prisms over the years and found the Baader Zeiss T2 prism to be in my opinion the sharpest and has the best connection systems.

Edited February 7, 2021 by dweller25

[mikeDnight]

The Pentax XW eyepieces have shallow undercuts and work well with the Tak prism. XW's IMHO are some of the finest eyepieces available. Another excellent choice would be the Baader Morpheus. Televue are great too, but I really hate their undercuts!  The Baader Hyperion is a good eyepiece too, and not as pricey. Or, if you're a moon and planet nut, a binoviewer with a 2X barlow and a pair of 25mm and 18 or 16mm orthoscopics will thrill you like nothing else!

[Deadlake]

I have the ScopeTech Zero mount, I use it with a Vixen SD103S scope which is similar to the Tak you are looking at. One point is that had high magnifications on planets the recovery from using the slow mo controls will introduce to much wobble, takes an age to recovery, I think all mounts of this type will be like this. For its type I think the Zero is the best mount out there. Since you choice of EP’s will not cause that high a magnification you will be fine, but if you choose to push the Tak to its full potential for planets you may need a different mount.

I think your choice of EPs means you can get away with the T2 Baader prism, which is half the cost of the 2” version, so if possible stick with that. Use starman’s ep spreadsheet to check the field stop.

 

Edited February 6, 2021 by Deadlake

[KP82]

Nothing beats a 4" APO or 6" newt as a general purpose portable all-rounder when you're only going to have one scope. In your case the FC100DC gets my vote.

As for the eyepieces unless you're really into planet observation and don't mind the extremely short eye relief of the orthos, I'd swap the 12.5mm and 6mm for TV Delos or Pentax XWs. You may also want to get a 2" diagonal and a 2" low mag eyepiece (e.g. Nagler 31 T5 or Panoptic 35mm) to take advantage of the wide field views offered by a 4" refractor.

Edited February 7, 2021 by KP82

[Surfer Chris]

Thanks everybody.

Seems like the general view is I should ditch the Ortho eyepieces. I appreciate what you are saying Jeremy about a narrow field of view being irritating with an undriven mount being. I guess at higher mags, images will soon drift across the view.

I was keen on the Televue 24mm Panoptic as the low power EP (can't remember exactly why that stood out as a good choice though). Unless there is an equally good alternative to the Panoptic, then the undercuts on that eyepiece will probably steer me towards the more expensive Baader diagonal I guess - which is unfortunate as would have liked to have saved the cash by getting the Tak diagonal. But it will drive me mad if the Panoptic becomes problematic in use.

As for the high power eyepiece selection - not sure yet? Both the Morpheus and Pentax XW range look good to me. Maybe even TV Delites which maybe are a little lighter and more compact looking? Although FOV is slightly less on those. Will have to do some reading up on the suggestions you have all made. Also have to look at what is actually available at the moment - seems to be a lot of eyepieces out of stock.

I may have to hold off buying the Solar wedge for now I think Stu. Spent quite a bit so far this weekend...and yet to tell the wife that I am after a new surfboard too!!!!

[John]

For what it's worth this is the set that I use with my FC100-DL (which is F/9):

Panoptic 24

Delos 17.3

Delos 14

Pentax XW 10mm, 7mm, 5mm and 3.5mm

Nagler Zoom 4mm-2mm

I could probably do without the 17.3mm and 3.5mm as I don't seem to use those as much as the others. 

I've not used a Morpheus but they seem to get universally good feedback so those would be on my shortlist if I was starting a set off now. They are less expensive than the Delos and XW's as well. The Explore Scientific 24mm 68 is pretty much as good in performance terms as the 24mm Panoptic in an F/7.4 scope so you could save some pennies there. The Tele Vue DeLites don't have quite the field of view (62 degrees) but are very high performers as well.

Plenty of options available !

 

 

 

Edited February 7, 2021 by John

[jock1958]

42 minutes ago, Surfer Chris said:

I was keen on the Televue 24mm Panoptic as the low power EP (can't remember exactly why that stood out as a good choice though). Unless there is an equally good alternative to the Panoptic, then the undercuts on that eyepiece will probably steer me towards the more expensive Baader diagonal I guess - which is unfortunate as would have liked to have saved the cash by getting the Tak diagonal. But it will drive me mad if the Panoptic becomes problematic in use.

The 24mm panoptic is a brilliant eyepiece with crystal clear wide angled views with good eye relief, it’s one of my favourite eyepieces, I don’t have any issues with the undercut either as I use the Baader T2 prism diagonal with a click lock clamp...brilliant end of!!

As far as high powered eyepieces go my favourite just now is the TV 3-6 zoom which is excellent but pricey, I was lucky and picked one up second hand. 

Edited February 7, 2021 by jock1958

[Stu]

2 hours ago, Surfer Chris said:

I was keen on the Televue 24mm Panoptic as the low power EP (can't remember exactly why that stood out as a good choice though). Unless there is an equally good alternative to the Panoptic, then the undercuts on that eyepiece will probably steer me towards the more expensive Baader diagonal I guess - which is unfortunate as would have liked to have saved the cash by getting the Tak diagonal. But it will drive me mad if the Panoptic becomes problematic in use.

Chris, as mentioned I cut a thin strip of insulating tape and put a wrap or two around the undercut on my Panoptic. This has completely stopped any issues with the eyepiece getting jammed in the Tak prism, so if you do want to save the cash that could still be an option.