Confused Noob

[Newforestgimp]

Good Morning All,

New member here, although i have had a curiosity with astronomy all my life ive never got round to doing anything about it, but now finally at 48 ive decided to bite the bullet and have a go. I've watched countless youtubes and read many articles and now a bit more comfortable with the terminology and different types of kit out there BUT and its a big BUT, I cant work out where to spend my first money, I want to be able to view AND take astrophotography, I have 2 or 3 Canon DSLRs to use which i have made an initial attempt to use on its own and post process through DSS and GIMP purely to understand the process with pleasing result visually although technically shocking im sure 🙂 .
So to the point, I'm stuck between Newtonian, Astrograph or otherwise, Cassegrain style & APO refractor and have added each to my shopping cart on different days, I appreciate they all have their merits so is it wrong to be looking at one scope to do it all or should I from day one be thinking two set ups ? one for Photography and one for viewing ? Id like some idea of what to expect to see when looking through each style and what to expect with camera attached, and where to start.

Kit I Cuurently have at my disposal: -
Canon 30D 500D 1300D
50mm Prime Lens
18-55 Kit Lens
35-80 Kit Lens
100-300 Zoom
Decent Camera Tripod with Ball head.
Intervelometer (Spelling)
Donated EQ1 Mount with Tripod
Red Dot finder

Any Help appreciated

Andy H

[SmokeyJoe]

Worry about your mount before your scope, especially if you are looking at AP.   EQ6 or better is the minimum I would recommend.  Then you need to decide if you want to do planetary or deep sky AP.  Different equipment needed for each.   Maybe look at a star adventure mount for your cameras first.  Not used one myself but they seem popular and produce good reults.   It will allow you to do some exploring of the hobby without a huge layout. 

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/skywatcher-star-adventurer.html

[carastro]

First of all, I should warn you that Astrophotography has a steep learning curve, so I would get used to using the mount and telescope before attempting to put a camera into the equation, but you are right to be thinking ahead and deciding which would be best for Astrophotography.

Much depends on your budget and how capable you are with fiddling around with kit to make it work correctly.

A refractor is probably the easiest to use with little/no maintenance and places less demands on the learner.  

BUT, a Newtonian will give you more "bang for the buck" i.e. bigger FOV and cheaper.  But it does require some regular maintenance (collimation)  take a look at this to give you some idea.

http://www.astro-baby.com/astrobaby/help/collimation-guide-newtonian-reflector/

If you think you can cope with this then probably a Newtonian will be a good all rounder.  But make sure to buy the PDS version as this is adapted for Astrophotography, some Newtonians you cannot get focus with a camera.  

But no scope is going to cut it with an EQ1 mount for astrophotography, you will need an sturdier HEQ5 or NEQ6 type mount capable of guiding if you want to do astrophotography. 

I would also suggest not going for a large Newtonian and this again puts more demands on the learner, and the mount and gives a smaller FOV.

If you can cope with collimation, I would suggest a Skywatcher 130PDS scope on an HEQ5 mount.

Carole  

 

  

Edited November 11, 2020 by carastro

[Newforestgimp]

Thank you both for the advice, I should of added I am aware that i will need a substantial investment in the mount department but the choices are easier so i had already assumed equatorial of EQ5 type or better either motorized or full goto, the guiding i can live without for now i think.

If for example I went with something like one of the Williams/TS Optics 70mm APO refractors as a long term "keeper" how would it be for purely visual use ? I'm fortunate where i live i can escape to dark skies fairly quickly so the compactness of the small APO's is appealing to use and for daytime wildlife etc.
Likewise with the Cassegrain style, say 127 size, it looks a more natural position for the camera to hang from.

And yes Carole the 130/150pds has been in and out of the shopping basket more times than i care to mention 🙂  I can see a cheap Newtonian being used manually alongside while the camera merrily snaps away.

Any experience with TS Optics r the other "badged" refractors ?

Thanks again...

Andy H

[vlaiv]

Here is my suggestion based on what you said.

Get this scope:

https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p3881_TS-Optics-PHOTOLINE-80mm-f-6-FPL53-Triplet-APO---2-5--RAP-Focuser.html

(I've just seen it is quite a long wait time on it - 80 days, so consider alternative )

https://www.altairastro.com/altair-wave-series-80mm-f6-super-ed-triplet-apo-2019-457-p.asp

This is in essence the same scope only branded differently.

Get EQ5 mount, or better one if you can afford it. HEQ5/EQ6 is going to be rather heavy mount to carry around so do think about that. If you want lighter mount that is good - take a look at iOptron offerings.

You think you can live without guiding for now - but in reality you can't so don't be afraid of it - sooner or later, you'll want to guide and I would say - get right into it.

[Ricochet]

1 hour ago, Newforestgimp said:

should I from day one be thinking two set ups ? one for Photography and one for viewing ?

Absolutely. 

If you don't already have a copy of Making Every Photon Count, I would suggest you get a copy to read through before you order your astrophotography set up. 

[Nik271]

Dear Andy,

Just to put it again at the start: a decent mount is a must, at a minimum EQ5 with RA drive, but for long exposures (above 60s) you may decide later you need some guiding and HEQ5 at least.

I have a Canon 250D and have used it with a 200mm F2.8 prime lens, with Skymax 127 MakCas and with a 6inch F5 Newtonian, each time mounted on EQ5 just with RA drive.

Here is a quick summary of my experience:

Easiest for imaging is the camera+ fast lens combination. This is best suited for large objects: The Milky way, the Andromeda galaxy, Veil Nebula, the Orion Nebula complex. You can get very good results this way with minimal investment just with the lens and the motorised EQ5.

The 6 inch Newtonian is a cheap way to start looking at and imaging smaller objects. It's great visually for all DSO objects, and somewhat harder to do imaging than the telephoto lens, but its worth the extra work because it can frame the Eagle, Swan, Dumbbell  nebulae and similar size objects very well. As your experience grows you will probably find that Newtonians have drawbacks for imaging: lack of flat field, diffraction spikes, prone to wind, need regular collimation. I still like mine: it's a light bucket and visually beats all my other scopes at DSOs.  

The Skymax 127 is great for planets and the Moon. It is F12 so very slow for imaging. I managed to image the Ring nebula with it and the M13 cluster in Hercules but it needs super long exposures and I will not recommend it for imaging DSOs.  Visually it is a very capable scope even for DSOs but as you know aperture rules and the Skymax 127 is actually only 120mm, so my 6inch Newt is a better light bucket.

I don't have refractors to compare but I know they are also excellent starter scopes. The above is just my experience so far.

Cheers,

Nik 

 

 

[Newforestgimp]

13 minutes ago, Nik271 said:

Dear Andy,

Just to put it again at the start: a decent mount is a must, at a minimum EQ5 with RA drive, but for long exposures (above 60s) you may decide later you need some guiding and HEQ5 at least.

I have a Canon 250D and have used it with a 200mm F2.8 prime lens, with Skymax 127 MakCas and with a 6inch F5 Newtonian, each time mounted on EQ5 just with RA drive.

Here is a quick summary of my experience:

Easiest for imaging is the camera+ fast lens combination. This is best suited for large objects: The Milky way, the Andromeda galaxy, Veil Nebula, the Orion Nebula complex. You can get very good results this way with minimal investment just with the lens and the motorised EQ5.

The 6 inch Newtonian is a cheap way to start looking at and imaging smaller objects. It's great visually for all DSO objects, and somewhat harder to do imaging than the telephoto lens, but its worth the extra work because it can frame the Eagle, Swan, Dumbbell  nebulae and similar size objects very well. As your experience grows you will probably find that Newtonians have drawbacks for imaging: lack of flat field, diffraction spikes, prone to wind, need regular collimation. I still like mine: it's a light bucket and visually beats all my other scopes at DSOs.  

The Skymax 127 is great for planets and the Moon. It is F12 so very slow for imaging. I managed to image the Ring nebula with it and the M13 cluster in Hercules but it needs super long exposures and I will not recommend it for imaging DSOs.  Visually it is a very capable scope even for DSOs but as you know aperture rules and the Skymax 127 is actually only 120mm, so my 6inch Newt is a better light bucket.

I don't have refractors to compare but I know they are also excellent starter scopes. The above is just my experience so far.

Cheers,

Nik 

 

 

Thanks Nik,

Useful advice regarding the 127skymax, i think the overall size was clouding my view of it and forgetting its effectively f12 which will put more strain on the mount/tracking accuracy from day one, So i will resign it to the purely visual shortlist.

Regards

 

Andy H

[carastro]

Yes if you want to do deep sky imaging you don't want a focal ratio higher than approx F8 - this is where the Newtonians are better in this respect.  

You will need guiding even if you don't use it to start with, so you don't want to buy a mount twice.  Keep your EQ1 for daytime photography.     

Only problem with a small refractor is it will be too small for planets, just so you are aware of that.  

Make sure you get an APO.

Carole 

 

Edited November 11, 2020 by carastro

[Mr Thingy]

I recently had a similar conundrum. So many options and so much information; I found myself with decision paralysis on a few occasions and also increasing my budget on a few more occasions.

In my case I opted to separate astrophotography from observation so as not to compromise both.

Since I plan to learn AP on larger DSO objects, such as Orion and some large galaxies, I decided to get a short focal length scope, which should also be more forgiving as I learn tracking and guiding. 

In the end I opted for an HEQ5 mount and a small ED refractor (72mm). I also have a dedicated astro camera and guiding system.

Just patiently waiting now for my HEQ5 mount to be shipped from China (ordered mid-Aug). Worth bearing in mind when you order. 

I already own a 120mm refractor that I use for observation but plan to get a large dobsonian when I feel like there's a low chance my wife will hurt me for spending more money on astro gear.

Good luck with your search and hope you are happy with whatever you decide to buy.

 

Edited November 11, 2020 by Mr Thingy

[Owmuchonomy]

All good advice above.  It has to be a fast APO refractor really or just stick with your DSLR and lenses and a Star Adventurer mount.  That's a big chip that you will have to fill and achieve a flat field, not an easy option.  That discounts Newtonians too without some serious fiddling with focus distances and coma correctors.  @vlaivhas given some excellent examples for you to check out.

[Newforestgimp]

Thanks to all !

I may not be 100% decided  but my understanding has increased again thanks to you all, and I think I’ll go small APO direct to DSLR and stick to wide field for now. I can use that for twitching too. At a point in future I’ll review again and maybe get a cheap Newtonian to go alongside..

Thanks again

Andy H

[Erling G-P]

I started out two years ago with much the same premise - I wanted to be able to do both AP and visual, with focus on AP.  Not wanting to splash out for two separate setups, some compromises had to be accepted. 

Jumped in at the fairly deep end AP wise, with a SW 200 PDS on a HEQ5 mount.  Many will say it's undermounted for AP, and to some extent they're right - wind has to be very quiet, as it's quite a sail.  Still, I've gotten some results with it that I'm quite happy about, especially after I started guiding.

Visually it's a feast using this relatively large scope, and I've had some amazing views of the Moon, and planets Jupiter & Saturn, even with their current low positions.  The EQ mount does make for some challenges visually though, as it moves in non-intuitive ways, and with a large Newton, the eyepiece can end up in hard to reach places.  Can be remedied somewhat by rotating the OTA in the tube rings of course.

Subsequently I have acquired a SW 130 PDS as supplement for wider fields, and for more windy nights.  With my experience with these two scopes and mount, I will support Carole's recommendation of a 130 PDS & HEQ5.  I haven't used the 130 visually yet, but am sure it has enough light gathering power to show many objects very well, and AP wise it's probably some of the best bang for the buck you can get.  I find it works very well on the HEQ5, being much smaller and more manageable than the 200 PDS.  With it I have imaged in a half gale without any problems (15 m/s gusts).  The attached pic of the Soul Nebula was the result - only tossed 3 images away, one of which was due to autoguider recalibrating.

As others have pointed out, you will want to guide, but to keep things simple, you can easily get your feet wet without it initially and start practicing image processing.  The learning curves are high, so better take one step at a time.

Best of luck with whatever you decide.

Edited November 11, 2020 by Erling G-P

[vineyard]

41 minutes ago, Newforestgimp said:

Thanks to all !

I may not be 100% decided  but my understanding has increased again thanks to you all, and I think I’ll go small APO direct to DSLR and stick to wide field for now. I can use that for twitching too. At a point in future I’ll review again and maybe get a cheap Newtonian to go alongside..

Thanks again

Andy H

I reckon you're making the right call & would concur w @vlaivsuggestions on the refractor side. I really kick-started my AP journey with a 72 APO.  Disclaimer: it is for sale in the Classifieds...but that's not a marketing spiel, b/c I switched to a 76 APO that works a bit better w the rest of my kit (ie, I'm definitely keeping a widefield in the kit cupboard).

Fwiw, I found that having a light widefield (a) got me using the scope more, even for quick visuals on an evening when I don't want to image (light, easy to set up, quick cool down), (b) is more portable, (c) is ample to start lunar & solar & still get pleasing images, (d) was better to start w guided/tracked AP since its typically over mounted by a decent mount, so I found it less sensitive than if I was pushing the mounting to its limits (or being buffeted by winds).

Whichever widefield you go for, its worth checking its versatility re whether you will need extenders or not, or if it will work w solar wedges or not (if you think you might do that).  Will defer to other SGLers w vastly more experience, but while doing background research I'd noticed that some widefields seem to be less versatile than others (I think its the amount of focuser travel available in both directions).

Enjoy!

[Capstone55]

I'd second the advice to get two scopes if you can afford to. Visual and astrophotography are almost like two different hobbies as far as equipment is concerned. Visual astronomy is much less expensive to pursue compared with astrophotography and a 8 - 10 inch Dobsonian should suit you well and you'll start to learn the sky while using one.

As others have said, the mount is critical for astrophotography. Together with a decent refractor, you're looking at the thick end of £2000 to get set up (and that's without cameras).