First telescope - SW 80ED, 120ED or 150ED?

[Thingo]

Hi all,

First of all I want to thank everyone who is contributing to this forum. I have spent a good while reading up on things and it has been very useful to increase my understanding of what type of telescope I want to buy and what actually can be expected. I have, however, not been able to make up my mind on some things and I would very much appreciate your opinions. Since I also want to use the telescope for terrestrial purposes I have narrowed in on a refractor with an equatorial mount.

My interests: Initially I'm mainly interested in observing moon, planets, sun, some fuzzies and generally getting better at finding the different objects on the night sky. To begin with I'm not that much into photography, currently I don't even own a camera that I could use for this purpose. Therefore is one of the questions I ask myself whether it should be an apochromatic or not. Cost is naturally also a consideration here, but spontaneously I would want to have the possibility of photography with this telescope if I so wish in the future and I therefore lean towards getting an apo (the mount does not necessarily have to take this into consideration at this point). 

Circumstances: I live in a city meaning that the LP is quite severe. Most of my observing I will want to do from my balcony, but I don't want to be discouraged from bringing it along on trips, so portability is important. 

Budget: $3000

My shortlist so far: I have been looking at the SkyWatcher Evostar xED PRO APO series including the following sizes: 80, 100, 120 or 150 mm. I have also looked at the SW Esprit series and some other brands including Omegon, Takahashi, Celestron and some others, but as I understand it, the Evostar series offers pretty good value for what it delivers. Does the Esprit series and the other brands have better quality? How big of a difference does it make? 

Focal ratio: Somehow most people seem to be talking about either the 80ED or the 120ED, while the 100ED and the 150ED seem to be less mentioned. Is this just a coincidence or is there something about these sizes that I have missed? The focal ratio is a bit higher on those, which brings me to believe this has something to do with it and also poses the question to myself which one is more useful for me taking my interests into consideration. And if you want a faster scope you just shorten it with a lens, right? 

What can I see: Even after reading dozens of topics at this forum including the "What Can I Expect to See....?", reviews and watched countless of videos on youtube I still haven't quite understood what I will be able to see with an 80ED compared to a 120ED, or 150ED for that matter. The price difference is quite significant and I really struggle to understand how much of a difference it will be. In the "What Can I Expect to See....?" topic he writes about what you can expect to see with 4"-8" telescopes? That's quite a wide span of size. The 80ED feels more portable and definitely easier to use if I were to give myself into photography, but how much will the observing be affected? 

Mount: I'm not that interested in photography initially, I want to learn more about how to find different objects in the sky, I live in a city with lots of LP --> Should I get a GOTO mount? Is it possible to unhook the motors and steer it by yourself for terrestrial purposes? 

 

Now I've written way too much and if you have made it so far I'm very happy, if you would be willing to share some of your thoughts around what I have written here I would be even more grateful. 

Thank you!

CF

EDIT:

The idea is no longer to use this for terrestrial viewing. 

150ED is out of scope. 

 

Edited March 16, 2020 by Thingo

[bomberbaz]

One thing is if you intend using for terrestrial viewing a dedicated EQ mount is not a good idea, there are EQ/AZ combo mounts, skywatcher do one at £1500 but its goto and so not sure really how suitable that would be. It would be good for if/when you decide to do astrophotography though.  Bad point, apparently very heavy.

 

Maybe a decent AZ would suit you better initially as this will cover your initial bases, non goto though. 

https://www.f1telescopes.co.uk/shop/tripods-and-mounts/skywatcher-tripod-mounts-wedges/skywatcher-alt-azimuth-budget-mounts/skywatcher-az4-heavy-duty-alt-azimuth-mount-and-stainless-steel-tripod/

[happy-kat]

Weight, personally the 150 might be so heavy to put off use, it is going to be big needs a big mount and be heavy. From reading posts maybe 100mm is more in the balance between weight, size, observing, future imaging.

[happy-kat]

Skywatcher mounts that have freedom find are electronic mounts that can be moved manually with no power.

There is no one size fits all telescope, invariably compromises on choosing.

Take your time ask questions and maybe see if you have a local club (through not an ideal time to go visiting)

[mikeDnight]

For terrestrial viewing the 80ED would probably the most suitable. Astronomically, the 100ED and 120ED pack a serious punch. Ease of use is very important and the easier a scope is to set up and carry, the more often youll use it. The 150ED may be used less as it is quite a beast. The 120ED is a good deep sky and lunar & planetary scope without it being too heavy or cumbersome. personally I consider the 120ED to be a terrific combination of excellent optics, serious light grasp and resolution, and portability. The little 80mm ED is a great grab and go scope, but for some silly reason Skywatcher have placed the 3" lens in a 4" refractor tube, so why not get the 100ED instead. The 100mm is longer but its still a great all round performer.

[Ricochet]

2 hours ago, Thingo said:

Most of my observing I will want to do from my balcony, but I don't want to be discouraged from bringing it along on trips, so portability is important. 

What will you be observing terrestrially? 

How big is your balcony? 

When you talk about taking it on trips do you mean just putting it in the car and setting up next to it at the other end or are you envisioning carrying the scope on hiking trips? 

[Thingo]

59 minutes ago, Ricochet said:

What will you be observing terrestrially? 

How big is your balcony? 

When you talk about taking it on trips do you mean just putting it in the car and setting up next to it at the other end or are you envisioning carrying the scope on hiking trips? 

My idea was to be able to sell my spotting scope that I'm using to look at mountains, boats on the lake, occasionally some bird, anything really etc. Given the responses here so far I'm thinking I might want to keep the spotting scope after all.

Balcony is not that big, about 1x3 meters. The doors are big though so the idea is that if I look straight out I will be able to sit indoors.

I meant putting it in the car. 

[Cosmic Geoff]

The APO scopes you cite are fine instruments, but I don't think they are necessarily what you want for a first astronomical scope.  Reflector scopes are even better at eliminating false colour.  It is quite likely that you will want to replace your 'first scope' with something else as your astronomical interests develop.

You express an interest in GoTo. If you will be observing in a light polluted area, this would be a decided advantage in finding non-obvious objects to observe. If you are not initially interested in long exposure astrophotography, or in visual only, then get an alt-azimuth GoTo.  An alt-azimuth Goto can be used for short exposure astrophotography and for planetary imaging.

I would suggest that should you buy a 150mm APO and a suitable GoTo mount, you will have spent an impressive amount of money and acquired a heavy outfit that may not necessarily suit your ongoing requirements.

I recommend that you give up the idea of buying a "lifetime scope" as your first purchase, and instead buy a smallish telescope (e.g. 127 or 130mm) and alt-az GoTo package. This might cost around £500 (600 euros?) and would provide an adequate introduction to astronomy.  If subsequently you decide you don't like the scope or the mount, or the tripod, or for that matter GoTo, then you can do something about it without much financial pain.   More to the point, having acquired some experience of handling an astronomical telescope and mount, you will be in a far better position to buy an outfit that suits your needs and interests.

You might even have decided that you want More Aperture, which in practical terms means a Newtonian reflector or a SCT.

 

[Louis D]

A 90mm triplet with FPL-53 might be another option.  I've really been enjoying my TS-Optics version on a DSV-2B alt-az mount.  It's optical quality terrestrially would easily rival high end 90mm spotting scopes.  It's more compact than most 100mm scopes, so car transport is certainly an option.  With the removable tube sections, it is natively binoviewer compatible without having to use any extra optics to reach focus.

A Newtonian might be difficult to use from a narrow balcony because you have to look into the side of the front of the tube.  I'm not sure a 150mm refractor would fit very well on your balcony, either, since the tube is about a meter long.  I'm assuming your balcony is only a meter deep and 3 meters wide.

As far as what you can see with each size, it's mostly a difference in resolution and brightness at a given magnification.  I wouldn't worry about getting the perfect scope to start with.  Get something reasonably sized and get observing.

[NGC 1502]

Regarding “what can I expect to see ?”.      That’s real tough to describe.  If you’ve never observed the night sky with a telescope it’s next to impossible to say something that will help.   For visual observing please don’t imagine you’ll see anything like the images found online or in magazines.   That’s not to say visual observing is not worth doing, to me it’s fabulous, just very hard to adequately give an idea....

One possibility is to join a local astronomy group that has observing in its program.  Of course in the current situation we’re all in that may not be possible to meet in groups.    Perhaps have a look online at peoples sketches they’ve done.  Take your time with that and if the sketches are well done it can give an idea of what can be seen visually.

Ed.

[MarkAR]

With the size of your balcony and the requirement for mobility, do not go for a big scope and mount combo.

How about something smaller in size like this https://www.firstlightoptics.com/slt-series/celestron-nexstar-5-slt.html

This will help you compare the fields of view and magnification of different scopes and setups. https://astronomy.tools/calculators/field_of_view/

Edited March 16, 2020 by MarkAR

[Louis D]

28 minutes ago, MarkAR said:

With the size of your balcony and the requirement for mobility, do not go for a big scope and mount combo.

How about something smaller in size like this https://www.firstlightoptics.com/slt-series/celestron-nexstar-5-slt.html

Heck, let's blow a big chunk of his budget on the Celestron NexStar Evolution 8 EdgeHD with StarSense.  I was impressed with the planetary views through it and how easily it was controlled from a tablet at a star party a couple of years back.  It was recently purchased by a newbie with deep pockets, and he was very satisfied with it's views and ease of use.  He was using Tele Vue Delos and Ethos eyepieces with it.

[Ricochet]

7 hours ago, Thingo said:

My idea was to be able to sell my spotting scope that I'm using to look at mountains, boats on the lake, occasionally some bird, anything really etc. Given the responses here so far I'm thinking I might want to keep the spotting scope after all.

Balcony is not that big, about 1x3 meters. The doors are big though so the idea is that if I look straight out I will be able to sit indoors.

I meant putting it in the car. 

For a small balcony like that I think I would look at something like a Skywatcher Skymax 127 on either an AZ5 or AZ GTi mount. This would also work on distant terrestrial targets like boats on a lake and mountains. If you have a sturdy table on your balcony you could start really cheaply with a Skywatcher Heritage 130p for astronomy only and keep the spotting scope for terrestrial use. 

[happy-kat]

As your balcony is quite narrow as above something like the skymax 127mm is a good fit as it has the focal length for terrestrial distant views but a compact design suited to the balcony and transport.

[happy-kat]

There is a trade off with a mak in that it's better on bright deep space objects and in your light pollution won't likely reveal faint DSO.

[Louis D]

5 hours ago, happy-kat said:

There is a trade off with a mak in that it's better on bright deep space objects and in your light pollution won't likely reveal faint DSO.

Nor will it be able to frame large, bright objects like the Pleiades, Hyades, or Collinder 70 that are good targets even in light polluted skies, though I have found that cheap 15x70 binoculars do a good job of showing them.  As far as cool down time, my 127 Mak is a bit slower to cool down than my 90mm triplet.

[johninderby]

A mak for lunar / planetary and a refractor for widefield make a nice combination. As you will often read no one scope does it all.

[Steve Clay]

If it were me I'd go for an ED80 on Az5 head with steel tripod. Or Az4 if you don't want slow motion controls.

Steve

[joe aguiar]

i also live in a white zone city population 4 million so basically worse there is BUT even so theres still lots you can see, you did say you have lots LP but iam not sure how good or bad it is as you really don't say. If you don't know the LP zones I can probally tell from the pop of your city.

I also have a few of the scopes you want so maybe I can tell what to expect from them

if you have lots LP and your manilly interested in planets sun and moon the refractor can be a good choice. This type you wont have to worry about collimation of the mirrors and dust getting into the open tube and needing a cleaning after awhile.

-I have the SW 80mm ed pro while I like it as its semi portable, good colour correction and pretty good quality its kinda still smallish. I have used it on juipter and Saturn. I also made a video on this on my youtube channel. One part I say us big guys that have several scopes we sometimes forget how decent the big planets can look in a nice 80mm apo It is abit large for a 80mm scope tho since it used a 4" tube, and the dewcap is not sliding like more expensive models but this is ok tho. last after the 2 big planets and maybe venus sun and moon its kinda small for the other stuff from a heavy LP zone.

I like it for quick grab and go sessions when I don't want to bring the big boys out.  Right now tho iam also in a balcony and your view will be limited on all sides. At least iam facing south where the sun moon and planets go so that helps, iam not sure what direction your facing?

Now if that was my only scope I would want something bigger for clusters nebul etc?

-I also had the SW 100/9 evostar apo an upgrade to the 80mm, its not much longer nor heavier either it will see more BUT NOT a huge amount tho.

-This is a  step up to the SW 120 evostar is much better from the 80mm but of course a lot more money. again not a heavy scope good colour correction you bascally will see everything you saw in the lower 2 scopes but abit brighter, double stars will be easy in all 3 but again will be brighter in the 120. Cluster will begin to show beter as the smaller 80mm may only see the best and brightest cluster maybe 10 to 12 the others will be kinda dim. So in the 120 you will see the same clusters better and dim ones will start to look ok but again not great, as even a 120mm or 4.7" is not a big scope either for dso.

-I have the SW evostar 150 ed and I wouldn't reccoment this unless you were serious obsever, its not a first scope to a new person. Its big and heavy. I had it on a LXD85 meade mount which is ok but not great, I later got a eq6 mount for it. Even this mount (eq6) will be at the limit for imaging with a scope this big and long.With this scope and a mount will blow your budjet or at least kill it and then you may need other things like eps filter s etc. I did 2 videos showing this scope and mount right beside me and with the tripod fully down and even that its taller then me. So unless you have a backyard and the scope is in the room right new to the backyard door I don't recomemnd this scope. sure planets/sun/moon/double stars/ clusters will be good even most clusters will be decent in a 6" apo but the  cons is the size weight weight and portability.

you also mention a top quality apo like a tak I also did a show down on my tak 102 tsa s to the 100f/9 eveostar ed and that video I made explains the tak blew the sw evostar image quality away. So if you want the best quality contrast image you can get sure a televue/tak/tec/AP will give you that butn at a high cost. An option look for a used good quality one.

My thinking tho if you want to see the sun/moon and planets in very good detail the 5" is where its at. The 6" is too big and the 4" 2nd choice if 5" inch is too expensive or large and heavy. But smaller than the 4" wont cut it as a main one scope only.

Another option is a 8 inch to 10" sct now in the size the dso will be so much better BUT the planets will lose some contrast over a apo but its still decent.other few option are

8' reflector on a eq mount, the 10" will be too big for most on a eq mount. 

As far dobs then a 8" to 10" size

So bascally what I think is you need 2 SCOPES

maybe 1 smaller like a 80mm to 100mm apo and a larger 8" to 10" size for the dimmer dso

joejaguar

 

Edited March 16, 2020 by joe aguiar

[happy-kat]

The OP balcony is 1x3 metres so need to be mindful of whether the tripod of any suggested telescope would actually fit let alone have an observer standing behind/beside it and a telescope mounted. 

[joe aguiar]

yes he may also have to do what a lot us condo/apt people do and take it downstairs half the time

joejaguar

[MarkAR]

42 minutes ago, joe aguiar said:

yes he may also have to do what a lot us condo/apt people do and take it downstairs half the time

joejaguar

How about roof access?

[joe aguiar]

I had that one time too and its good but not perfect.

in one post I made here I talked about how my 3rd floor was just a closed attic . It was an A frame made a hole then stairs then re support the joists then new floor then tearn down half of the A frame and make it square then make a door to a 14x14 wooden deck on top of the flat part of the roof so I had a good viewing area 360 degree. It was also abouve the street light so was as good as I would get in a white zone and when your eyes get adapted it was decent good for a wite zone.

The only issue was since it was a wodden deck on top the flat shingle roof it wasn't rock solid small mm movement like in any deck. Now to use walk bbq sit down was fine BUT for high power planetary viewing its wasn't perfect. I even had a really hard time seeing the cassini division due to vibrations.

So if its a roof top that's solid concrete that will be perfect BUT then u may have heat plumes issues, or if its wooden like mine to those concrete stone tiles will again have vibrations. If it gives the vewing angle that's half the battle tho.

joejaguar

[Thingo]

Thank you everyone for contributing to this topic. All replies and opinions are very much appreciated! Based on your comments I have come to some conclusions:

1. I didn't realise that the terrestrial viewing part would prove such an obstacle and I will therefore keep my spotting scope. 

2. I also didn't realise that the size of my balcony may be an issue. I have a fairly big park just outside, so I guess I'll spend more time taking it out there than what I initially thought and therefore the importance of portability goes up. Now, I'm a pretty big guy, but carrying around with a close to 10 kg telescope and an EQ6 pro that weighs close to 20 kg might definitely deter me from using this as much as I would want. All things combined, the 150ED is out of scope.

3. I have been thinking long and hard about buying a telescope and I really want to have something that is way better than my current spotting scope (which is a very fine piece of equipment). This in combination with the fact that I will likely spend more time bringing it outdoors than I initially thought + the apparent drawbacks of a Mak makes me a bit hesitant about this type of telescope.

4. It is true I don't have a lot of experience looking through telescopes, but I have a lot of experience studying the night sky with and without binoculars/spotting scope. I feel like buying a cheaper starter telescope might be an option, but I'm not quite convinced. I'm afraid that it won't be that wow effect when looking at stars and the moon in comparison to my spotting scope. 

I will not buy more than one telescope anytime soon. I know that every telescope is a trade-off, but I'm trying to find the best solution for my circumstances   

Currently leaning towards something like the 120ED but the idea to look into 2nd hand ones from a better brand has definitely sparked my interest. 

[John]

The ED120 is a superb telescope. I have had one for a few years and thought it was good but more recent purchases of a couple of much, much more expensive refractors have demonstrated to me just how good my Skywatcher ED120 is 

I think your most important priority is to get a setup that you can use easily and conveniently in your circumstances. That might be an ED100 or possibly an ED120. I agree that the ED150 is probably not practical. Here are the ED120 and the ED150 side by side so you can see the difference: