Cabling help needed!

[Astrokev]

HI All

My current cabling layout is shown in the diagram below. My scope etc is housed in a small observatory, with a warm room, and the cabling layout is quite simple (not unlike myself!). As shown, I currently have my laptop next to my pier mounted EQ6 for EQMOD control of the mount, and for easy access to the guide cam and imaging cam (I don't yet have a separate imaging cam, but this is rising to the top of my wish list).

So, my question is - how do I most simply change my layout to be able to move the laptop into the warm room?  Challenges as I see them -

1. The ASCOM cable is too short (warm room desk is about 4/5 m away from the EQ6, via underfloor conduit.)

2. The CMOS cam cables are too short.

3. With the laptop in the warm room, manually focussing the cameras is very tricky without being able to see the screen.

I've considered possible solutions - longer USB cables for the cameras (but is 5m pushing it?), buying a USB hub to mount on the pier/scope to plug cameras into. For focussing - electric focusser or second screen on the pier linked to the laptop?

I accept that to some this re-design may appear rather basic, but I'd really appreciate a few pointers, ideas and general advice on which solutions would work best. Ideally I'd like to keep further outlay to a minimum but recognise I'm going to need to give the moths an airing!

Many thanks

Kev

 

[Dr_Ju_ju]

IF you have any additional computers\laptops, you could keep the laptop, local to the mount\cameras as you have it now, and just use remote desktop to control it from your 'warm' room.

An adjunct to that would be to use a local to mount Raspberry Pi4, to control all your equipment using INDI\Ekos, which in turn is controlled using the laptop in your warm room.... 

 

[stash_old]

Cheapest and simplest route is to either :-

1. Get a hub next to the Pier so use existing cables from devices to hub. Then run a USB active extender cable 5 or 10m from Warm room to hub. Decent powered hub £50). You didn;t say if your Laptop had usb 2 or 3 ? Good quality 5 or 10m extender cable £30. 12v or 5v (DC) power to hub extra £15 - total £100 approx

2. Run Usb active extender cables (5-10m) for each device back to laptop (now in Warm room). 3 x USB extender cables £90.

With both the above and ASSUMING your Laptop has either a RGB or HDMI socket place a small 14inch (or less) screen next to the pier or against the Warm room wall - latter preferred as I assume you would be able o run data and power through the wall! You will need to put the screen into purpose made box to keep dew off and stop glare (switch off when not in use).  Second hand 14 inch screen RGB - £10 or HMDI £30

Pro's

1. No new learning curve for either Remote Desktop or RPI Linux/Indi

2. Simple and tried method.

Con's

1.. Extended Active USB cables do slow the USB links down as there are like adding a new USB hub. 

2. Extra power for Hub (if option (1)) and Screen.

or do as Julian has suggested 🙂 maybe  a secondhand Laptop/Desktop in warm room to Remote Desktop to original Pier laptop to reduce costs - just need wired RJ45/Ethernet between Laptop pier and warm room - assuming you have ethernet in warm room already - if answer to latter is no  Use TP-Link 8 port hub (£15) and some rj45 cables with connectors already attached and set the 2 PC's with fixed IP addresses on the same network (e.g. 192.168.2.2 and 192.168.2.3 ) - google full info.  Secondhand I5 Windows desktop with ssd (240gb) and 8gb memory + screen  for around £150 - would allow you to do Post processing while you wait for clear skies 🙂

[Astrokev]

2 hours ago, Dr_Ju_ju said:

IF you have any additional computers\laptops, you could keep the laptop, local to the mount\cameras as you have it now, and just use remote desktop to control it from your 'warm' room.

An adjunct to that would be to use a local to mount Raspberry Pi4, to control all your equipment using INDI\Ekos, which in turn is controlled using the laptop in your warm room.... 

 

Thanks Julian. Some good suggestions there, although going the Raspberry Pi route sounds like a whole new learning curve. I've got an old laptop kicking around but not sure this is up to the job as the screens hanging off 🙁, but something to think about.

[Astrokev]

1 hour ago, stash_old said:

1. Get a hub next to the Pier so use existing cables from devices to hub. Then run a USB active extender cable 5 or 10m from Warm room to hub. Decent powered hub £50). You didn;t say if your Laptop had usb 2 or 3 ? Good quality 5 or 10m extender cable £30. 12v or 5v (DC) power to hub extra £15 - total £100 approx

2. Run Usb active extender cables (5-10m) for each device back to laptop (now in Warm room). 3 x USB extender cables £90.

With both the above and ASSUMING your Laptop has either a RGB or HDMI socket place a small 14inch (or less) screen next to the pier or against the Warm room wall - latter preferred as I assume you would be able o run data and power through the wall! You will need to put the screen into purpose made box to keep dew off and stop glare (switch off when not in use).  Second hand 14 inch screen RGB - £10 or HMDI £30

Pro's

1. No new learning curve for either Remote Desktop or RPI Linux/Indi

2. Simple and tried method.

Con's

1.. Extended Active USB cables do slow the USB links down as there are like adding a new USB hub. 

2. Extra power for Hub (if option (1)) and Screen.

or do as Julian has suggested 🙂 maybe  a secondhand Laptop/Desktop in warm room to Remote Desktop to original Pier laptop to reduce costs - just need wired RJ45/Ethernet between Laptop pier and warm room - assuming you have ethernet in warm room already - if answer to latter is no  Use TP-Link 8 port hub (£15) and some rj45 cables with connectors already attached and set the 2 PC's with fixed IP addresses on the same network (e.g. 192.168.2.2 and 192.168.2.3 ) - google full info.  Secondhand I5 Windows desktop with ssd (240gb) and 8gb memory + screen  for around £150 - would allow you to do Post processing while you wait for clear skies 🙂

Thanks 'stash'. Loads of ideas there. Will have to go through it a few times and consider the way forward.

I'm leaning towards the pier hub idea if I'm honest.  Sounds neater. My lappie has USB 2 & 3. I presume USB 3 would be better for speed?

I also have HDMI ports so the second screen idea is sounding attractive. No network as yet in the obsy.

The other thing I forgot to mention in my post is that I could probably benefit from getting some anti-dew bands, as I'm fed up blasting my expensive objectives with a hairdrier whilst balanced on a slippery stool in the dark 😖.  I guess I may need to consider a hub that has power outputs aswell, or get a Pegasus box (though these seem very over-priced for what they are?).

Options, options....

[Dr_Ju_ju]

I wouldn't mix devices that just use "power" and those that are data devices.

For dew bands, you will probably need some form of control, whether that be a simple potential divider, or more likely a switched mode power regulator, which has the potential to 'upset' the USB data stream, with induced cross-talk....

Also at the moment, you say you are manually focusing, so there is probably a little nag\wish to use auto-focusing, which will require additional control & power requirements, which its probably better to take into consideration now. As your are going down the rabbit hole, have a think about anything else you'd like to remotely control, and just make plans for any future needs now, but just fit the basics.

If your WiFi network stretches to your Obsy, you could try remote desk-topping, to the Obsy, using your old laptop, which itself doesn't need to be powerful, as all its doing is running remote control, all the work is being done at the Obsy PC, so even if there are remote desktop dropouts due to dodgy connections, the imaging system will still be running ok.

 

[wimvb]

In case you're interested in INDI/Kstars, the StellarMate is probably more plug & play than a clean raspberry pi. AsiAir is limited to zwo cameras + dslr only. An alternative is a minipc or compustick near the mount connected to the warm room laptop with an ethernet cable. That way you can continue using ASCOM based software. 

[Astrokev]

Thanks for replies so far.

Browsing the forum, Startech USB hubs seem to get lots of mentions. Would this be a good solution - at least for my data needs?  Any particular models (USB2 or 3 ?) that I should consider?

thanks

kev 

[Yawning Angel]

I went with the 7 port USB 3, 12v powered StarTech : https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00SCE4E0I/ - It's aluminium bodied and well made. You might need to cover the tell-tail LEDs, depending on how annoying you find them

I then replaced the mains power brick with a feed from a 12v PDU, the same as powers the rest of my kit

[Yawning Angel]

19 hours ago, Astrokev said:

I could probably benefit from getting some anti-dew bands

These are pretty good and not horribly expensive, and remotely controllable: https://www.firstlightoptics.com/dew-prevention/lynx-astro-2-port-dew-controller.html

[Astrokev]

5 hours ago, Yawning Angel said:

I went with the 7 port USB 3, 12v powered StarTech : https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00SCE4E0I/ - It's aluminium bodied and well made. You might need to cover the tell-tail LEDs, depending on how annoying you find them

I then replaced the mains power brick with a feed from a 12v PDU, the same as powers the rest of my kit

Thanks Alex, this is useful.  I'm not sure I need 7 ports but I'm guessing they do a version with less USB ports - I'll take a look.

[JamesF]

5 hours ago, Yawning Angel said:

I went with the 7 port USB 3, 12v powered StarTech : https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00SCE4E0I/ - It's aluminium bodied and well made. You might need to cover the tell-tail LEDs, depending on how annoying you find them

I then replaced the mains power brick with a feed from a 12v PDU, the same as powers the rest of my kit

I did much the same.  I put a layer of insulating tape over the LEDs, which kills the brightness but I can actually still see them when I'm standing at the mount.

James

[JamesF]

10 minutes ago, Astrokev said:

Thanks Alex, this is useful.  I'm not sure I need 7 ports but I'm guessing they do a version with less USB ports - I'll take a look.

You'd be surprised...  I'm getting towards this:

1) mount
2) main camera
3) guide camera
4) filter wheel
5) dew controller
6) main OTA focuser controller
7) guide scope focuser controller

Then I have to wonder what I'll do if I want an automated rotator, automated covers for taking darks (both OTAs, probably) and flats, or switch to a dual-scope rig.

James

[Astrokev]

49 minutes ago, JamesF said:

You'd be surprised...  I'm getting towards this:

1) mount
2) main camera
3) guide camera
4) filter wheel
5) dew controller
6) main OTA focuser controller
7) guide scope focuser controller

Then I have to wonder what I'll do if I want an automated rotator, automated covers for taking darks (both OTAs, probably) and flats, or switch to a dual-scope rig.

James

Thanks James.  I'm interested in your mention of dew controller. What model do you use? I wasn't aware that these (or some of them) needed a USB port. I've no plans to get a filter wheel, but focussers are a possibility in the future, so I guess planning for the future is the right way to go.

Can I ask what you've done for power supplies to the mount and other kit? D'you use a power box at the mount, or are these supplied separately from your warm room. PPB's are hugely expensive and I'm trying to avoid needing one of those!

many thanks

kev

[JamesF]

4 minutes ago, Astrokev said:

Thanks James.  I'm interested in your mention of dew controller. What model do you use? I wasn't aware that these (or some of them) needed a USB port. I've no plans to get a filter wheel, but focussers are a possibility in the future, so I guess planning for the future is the right way to go.

I've just finished building dew controllers to Robert Brown's design.  Essentially it's a three-channel dew heater on steroids, using either a USB or Bluetooth connection to allow control from the PC.  They may be overkill unless you want complete remote control of the observatory, but actually I think they probably still work out cheaper than many of the commercial options.  Coupled with dew heaters from W&W I've been happily using this one (in my own 3d-printed case) for a couple of weeks now:

I'm also in the process of getting together the parts to build one (almost certainly several, actually) of his remote focuser units.

9 minutes ago, Astrokev said:

Can I ask what you've done for power supplies to the mount and other kit? D'you use a power box at the mount, or are these supplied separately from your warm room. PPB's are hugely expensive and I'm trying to avoid needing one of those!

I haven't really organised my power distribution system properly at the moment.  I have a 12V supply to the pier fed from the warm room and for the time being I've just connected individual cables to each device that requires power, which is a bit of a mess to say the least even if it does pretty much do the job as long as you ignore the spaghetti.  I do have one of these (an older model I think) that I bought used from another SGL member:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Chunzehui-Connector-Splitter-Distributor-Output/dp/B074Z1J1BY/

which will get fitted as soon as I can make space for it.  What I'll probably do is fit an aluminium plate somewhere on the top of the mount, perhaps across the scope rings or something like that, and fix all these bits and pieces to that.

James

[Yawning Angel]

For power, I use 4mm banana connectors via this:

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/hobbyking-powerstrip-fuse-protected-power-distribution-board.html?___store=en_us
 

And feed that from a 12v Nevada PSU in the warm room

[JamesF]

19 minutes ago, Yawning Angel said:

For power, I use 4mm banana connectors via this:

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/hobbyking-powerstrip-fuse-protected-power-distribution-board.html?___store=en_us

And feed that from a 12v Nevada PSU in the warm room

I found a video of that being opened up on youtube.  Looks like there's really nothing much inside the box.  It literally does seem to be power in across a 40A fuse shared across two sockets and into separate 10A fuses with switches inline for the other three sockets.  Should mean that the fuses can be changed for something more suitable for astro kit where required.

There's another version branded "SkyRC" that looks the same, with the addition of a USB charging port.

James

[Astrokev]

53 minutes ago, JamesF said:

I've just finished building dew controllers to Robert Brown's design.  Essentially it's a three-channel dew heater on steroids, using either a USB or Bluetooth connection to allow control from the PC.  They may be overkill unless you want complete remote control of the observatory, but actually I think they probably still work out cheaper than many of the commercial options.  Coupled with dew heaters from W&W I've been happily using this one (in my own 3d-printed case) for a couple of weeks now:

I'm also in the process of getting together the parts to build one (almost certainly several, actually) of his remote focuser units.

I haven't really organised my power distribution system properly at the moment.  I have a 12V supply to the pier fed from the warm room and for the time being I've just connected individual cables to each device that requires power, which is a bit of a mess to say the least even if it does pretty much do the job as long as you ignore the spaghetti.  I do have one of these (an older model I think) that I bought used from another SGL member:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Chunzehui-Connector-Splitter-Distributor-Output/dp/B074Z1J1BY/

which will get fitted as soon as I can make space for it.  What I'll probably do is fit an aluminium plate somewhere on the top of the mount, perhaps across the scope rings or something like that, and fix all these bits and pieces to that.

James

Thanks James. Very clever - I was forgetting that you're a bit of a whizz at electronics.  I can wire a 13A 3 pin plug and that's about it !

[Astrokev]

30 minutes ago, Yawning Angel said:

For power, I use 4mm banana connectors via this:

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/hobbyking-powerstrip-fuse-protected-power-distribution-board.html?___store=en_us
 

And feed that from a 12v Nevada PSU in the warm room

Thanks Alex.  I think I need to get a proper PSU. At present I've only got a single cable plug in adapter thing!

[JamesF]

I dug out the power distribution box that I have today.  This is it:

Out of interest, I opened it up to see what was inside.  Not a whole lot, it seems.

The circuitry at the top right is some sort of voltage monitoring system, though I only know that because it says so in the circuit diagram that they also handily provide:

So ignoring the voltage monitoring it really is very simple.

In fact, it got me thinking and a quick search came up with one of these:  https://www.amazon.co.uk/KKmoon-Blade-Holder-Warning-Marine/dp/B01IVRCBZK/

I reckon with a few extra bits and pieces (sockets, wiring, "chocolate block" for the ground connections etc.) that could be made into a perfectly serviceable power distribution box.

James

[wimvb]

2 hours ago, JamesF said:

...

In fact, it got me thinking and a quick search came up with one of these:  https://www.amazon.co.uk/KKmoon-Blade-Holder-Warning-Marine/dp/B01IVRCBZK/

I reckon with a few extra bits and pieces (sockets, wiring, "chocolate block" for the ground connections etc.) that could be made into a perfectly serviceable power distribution box.

James

This then:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/UMISKY-Indicator-Damp-Proof-Automotive-Independent/dp/B07GYTZF35/ref=pd_aw_sbs_263_3/262-9023612-6204953?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B07GYTZF35&pd_rd_r=024b8ff0-84ee-4de0-b1a0-4f2ea32f2381&pd_rd_w=4i725&pd_rd_wg=h2Bno&pf_rd_p=0208d703-a674-4413-8899-c3889837d212&pf_rd_r=NGD51G5JGNJ3CDHQ4ZHQ&psc=1&refRID=NGD51G5JGNJ3CDHQ4ZHQ

[JamesF]

6 minutes ago, wimvb said:

This then:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/UMISKY-Indicator-Damp-Proof-Automotive-Independent/dp/B07GYTZF35/ref=pd_aw_sbs_263_3/262-9023612-6204953?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B07GYTZF35&pd_rd_r=024b8ff0-84ee-4de0-b1a0-4f2ea32f2381&pd_rd_w=4i725&pd_rd_wg=h2Bno&pf_rd_p=0208d703-a674-4413-8899-c3889837d212&pf_rd_r=NGD51G5JGNJ3CDHQ4ZHQ&psc=1&refRID=NGD51G5JGNJ3CDHQ4ZHQ

Looks like it ought to be ideal.  At that price I'm not sure why I'd bother even trying to make one myself.  Though I might be tempted to go for the 12-way one:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/UMISKY-Indicator-Damp-Proof-Automotive-Independent/dp/B07GYMM22H/

I'm thinking: mount, one or possibly two cameras, USB hub, two focuser controllers, dew controller and room for expansion.

The product reviews aren't perhaps the best though.

James

[wimvb]

I have ordered electronics from Amazon (uk), and in my experience, most of these devices come from chinese vendors. Quality can vary, so you have to make sure whom you buy from. Handling and shipping is usually very cheap, but expect to pay duties. Tracking, even if you get a tracking reference, is virtually non-existent.

Otoh, everything I have ordered so far, has arrived on time and in good order. The only delays I have had were caused by the Swedish postal service who were quite slow to deliver after I paid duties.

Edited February 2, 2020 by wimvb

[masjstovel]

I'm in the process of doing the same, @Astrokev.  I knew absolutely nothing about electronics or what i needed for doing this, but with tremendeous help from @Xplode i bought some items.

I havent done anything with USB yet, but i will go for some kind of HUB i think.

For powering i went for:

1. Meanwell NDR 120-12: 12V 10A PSU

Power supply will go in a box i keep under the tripod. 

 

2. Chunzehui F-1005 40A 9-port fuse- powerpole.

Powerpole will be fastened with high end velcro underneath the scope rear end. Very neat with the anderson 12v connectors.

Makes the setup very modular and easy to set up/pick down.

 

3. HitecAstro 4 channel dew controller (max 2A per channel):

,

This i owned already, but will cut the 12v car plug and put it via the chunzehui Powerpole.

 

4. 10m Power cable (w/ground)

Cut of the female end and plugged it into the Power supply.

 

5. 1.8m 5A sertified cable with 2.1x5.5mm plug

These will power the mount, ASI1600MM camera, and the ZWO EAF Autofocuser (so far).

6. 2,5mm2 cable:

These are the link between power supply and Chunzehui F-1005, so all equipment power cables end up at the Chunzehui.

 

 

10m cable attached to PSU:

 

Planned position for the Chunzehui F-1005 Powerpole:

 

Power cables will go from equipment and through here between the dovetail and clamps to the Chunzehui on the rear lower end:

 

 

Coarse drawing of the planned setup. all cables except the power cable will have anderson connectors. I've ordered 1 more vixen dovetail so i will have the guider on top centre, and the scope will be rotated 180degrees so that the camera and focuser point downwards to scope for better balancing.

 

Heres before:

Edited February 2, 2020 by masjstovel

[Astrokev]

6 hours ago, masjstovel said:

I'm in the process of doing the same, @Astrokev.  I knew absolutely nothing about electronics or what i needed for doing this, but with tremendeous help from @Xplode i bought some items.

I havent done anything with USB yet, but i will go for some kind of HUB i think.

 

 

Thanks for the detail and pictures.

I haven't given much thought to main PSU as yet.

I'd be grateful if someone could recommend one that's suitable. Browsing Amazon, there's just so many!

Thanks