Alt-Az Mount for TEC 140

[JTEC]

Does anyone have any suggestions for a portable alt-az for a TEC 140, please?  The OTA with dovetail, tube rings, prism, eyepiece, etc maxes out at around 12 kg.  At the moment I use it on an AZ EQ6 mounted on a pier - as you’d expect, this works well.  For occasional visits to dark skies, I unbolt the mount and cart it off, wires, power source, etc and set up using the original tripod. Again, in terms of functionality in the field, this works fine but it’s a lot of fuss. As an imager, I know what terrific fun it can be grovelling around getting polar alignment, disentangling birdsnests of wires, tripping over power supplies, etc - which is why for visual observing, I’m looking for simplicity.   I’ve looked at the AZ8. Does anyone have experience of these? For goto, the bigger Ioptron looks interesting, but I suspect it’d be marginal for my setup even for just visual. I’d be grateful for any insights and suggestions anyone might have! 

[JeremyS]

10 minutes ago, JTEC said:

Does anyone have any suggestions for a portable alt-az for a TEC 140, please?  The OTA with dovetail, tube rings, prism, eyepiece, etc maxes out at around 12 kg.  At the moment I use it on an AZ EQ6 mounted on a pier - as you’d expect, this works well.  For occasional visits to dark skies, I unbolt the mount and cart it off, wires, power source, etc and set up using the original tripod. Again, in terms of functionality in the field, this works fine but it’s a lot of fuss. As an imager, I know what terrific fun it can be grovelling around getting polar alignment, disentangling birdsnests of wires, tripping over power supplies, etc - which is why for visual observing, I’m looking for simplicity.   I’ve looked at the AZ8. Does anyone have experience of these? For goto, the bigger Ioptron looks interesting, but I suspect it’d be marginal for my setup even for just visual. I’d be grateful for any insights and suggestions anyone might have! 

I’ve gone about this from the other end with my Celestron C9.25 which is a bit lighter than your TEC and certainly sorter.

I was advised that the larger iOptron alt-az wasn’t up to it. I considered the Losmandy AZ8, but the advice there was that the mechanics are like the GM8, which in my would be marginal for the C9.25.

I have a William Optics EZTouch which works well, but would not be up to the TEC. But sometimes I want Goto in altaz mode so I’ve gone for the SW AZ-EQ6 🙂

Could you just use the AZ-EQ6 without power, given it has the load bearing capacity?

Maybe others will have more useful suggestions.
 

[RT65CB-SWL]

Hi @JTEC

Tele-Optic Giro Ercole...17.6kgs on each arm.

AOKswiss AYOll... weight without / with Counterweight: 8kg / 12kg.

[JTEC]

2 hours ago, JeremyS said:

I’ve gone about this from the other end with my Celestron C9.25 which is a bit lighter than your TEC and certainly sorter.

I was advised that the larger iOptron alt-az wasn’t up to it. I considered the Losmandy AZ8, but the advice there was that the mechanics are like the GM8, which in my would be marginal for the C9.25.

I have a William Optics EZTouch which works well, but would not be up to the TEC. But sometimes I want Goto in altaz mode so I’ve gone for the SW AZ-EQ6 🙂

Could you just use the AZ-EQ6 without power, given it has the load bearing capacity?

Maybe others will have more useful suggestions.
 

Thanks JeremyS.  I’d been given similar advice about the Ioptron - pity, because, though I’ve done years of virtuous star-hopping, I like goto as well. The figures, 16kg a side, suggest that the AZ8 ought to be up to it. Maybe extrapolating from the GM8 equatorial isn’t strictly indicative, given that with the simple, visual observing I have in mind, there’s no driving involved, PE to think about, etc? And your C9.25 , though it’s shorter, must have at least twice the focal length of my TEC, which might make for a difference?

I’mvery pleased indeed with the AZEQ 6. I can’t think of a better option. I’d just like to find an alternative to unbolting it, lugging it around, etc. That, rather than the wires as such, is what I’m trying to an alternative for. It would certainly be interesting to know whether manual slo-mos could be attached though. Thanks again. 

John

[JTEC]

2 hours ago, Philip R said:

Hi @JTEC

Tele-Optic Giro Ercole...17.6kgs on each arm.

AOKswiss AYOll... weight without / with Counterweight: 8kg / 12kg.

Thanks PhilipR.  

It looks as though the Ercole would certainly carry it, though I’d have to find a tripod with suitable scope swing clearance at the top - the Berlebachs, which I’ve used, are great but expensive - I’ll need to investigate whether it could be attached to something I already have, e.g. the EQ6 original tripod. 

The Swiss AYOII I’d looked at but thought marginal weight-wise and expensive.  So far, subject to tripod, your suggestion of the Ercole looks like the most cost effective option for something lightweight and simple. Thanks again.

BW

John

 

[DirkSteele]

As already mentioned, Tele Optic Giro Ercole. I have used with my APM LZOS 130 which has a larger moment of inertia than the 140 thanks to the length of the tube, and performed quite well.  Certainly a solid tripod will be needed.  My review from a few years ago.

http://alpha-lyrae.co.uk/2015/05/03/tele-optic-giro-ercole-alt-az-mount-review/

 

[MattJenko]

What about an alt az fork, like this one : https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p11130_TS-Optics-Fork-Mount-for-large-Binoculars--Spotting-Scopes--Telephoto-Lenses-or-Telescopes.html

[John]

The Ercole will carry the scope but it might not be steady enough at higher magnifications for you.

My nearest scope to the TEC 140 is my TMB/LZOS 130 F/9.25 triplet. I find the Skytee II a touch more stable than the Ercole with that scope.

I have considered a Losmandy AZ8 but I'm not convinced that it will offer any additional stability. The next steps up in terms of stability start to get expensive such as the APM Maxload AZ mount:

https://www.apm-telescopes.de/en/mounts--tripods/alt-azimuth-mounts/apm-azmaxload-mount-twin-view-version.html

Which Matthew has also reviewed here:

http://alpha-lyrae.co.uk/2016/02/27/apm-azmaxload-mount-review/

 

[DirkSteele]

I have to admit I am probably going to use the APM Az MaxLoad with the 130 going forward, though it is a much larger proposition to transport around.  I do wonder if a better tripod might make the difference to give better high magnification performance that John referenced, but as I have a solution I am happy to transport, there is not much point in me investing an expensive new tripod to find out.

[JeremyS]

1 hour ago, JTEC said:

I’ll need to investigate whether it could be attached to something I already have, e.g. the EQ6 original tripod. 

So long as the mount has a 3/8-inch thread photo-tripod adapter, you can use an adapter. I have attach my WO EZTouch mount to an EQ6 tripod using a Berlebach adapter sold for that very purpose. It looks like FLO have something similar.

[John]

After 3 years of considering non-GOTO, manual alt-az mounts for my 130mm F/9.2 triplet I've concluded that there is a gap in the market currently between the Ercole / Skytee II class mounts and the really heavy duty ones such as the Maxload.

Mounts such as the Bray Tablet and the Giro XXL are long out of production now but sort of filled that niche. The KK T-Rex would certainly do the job but is as rare as hens teeth as well as being out of production as well. The TTS Panther mount is superb but priced in the £thousands. The AYO Master is probably up to the job but again with a very hefty price tag.

 

 

[JTEC]

Thanks very much everyone for your advice and suggestions and those invaluable reviews - that’s genuinely helpful. I’ve been pondering this for a long time and not been sure which way to go between the lighter options that are affordable but might not be up to the job and the massive ones that’ll do the job but are expensive.  As John says, there does look to be a gap in the market between the two.

Of the mounts that are available and affordable, the Ercole looks to be front runner with maybe the SkyTee worth a look as well, though FLO advises the load capacity of the SkyTee to be lower than the Ercole’s.  So the Ercole probably; and thanks JeremyS for the adapter link - It looks as though something should be possible. 

John

 

[John]

Its interesting that the Skytee II load capacity is listed as lower than the Ercole but nevertheless, having compared the way that these mounts handle my 130mm F/9.2 triplet, I'm convinced that the Skytee II is steadier at higher magnifications and any vibrations that happen dampen a little faster. Thats not the result I expected by the way, but there it is.

I wonder if FLOs figure for the Skytee II is influenced by the rather poor stock dovetail clamps fitted to the mount ?. My Skytee II has an ADM clamp fitted which is much, much better than the stock item and also I use a Berlebach Uni 28 tripod which is very stable. I do like the Ercole though which is why I also have one of those !.

It is not just the tube weight that creates the challenge for the mount of course, the length of the tube, in the case of these large refractors, is a major contributary factor as well.

It would be great if the Discmounts were more readily available here:

http://www.discmounts.com/

The DM6 in particular seems to be very popular in the USA for use with heavy and relatively long refractors.

 

[johninderby]

FLO asked SGL members for their real world Skytee usable max load recommendations. Yes the mount is physically capable of handling more weight but works better at what FLO now recommends. 

So it’s real world experience vs a manufactures rating. The Skytee may not be the most sophistcated or best quality mount but it really works well. 

RE: heavy duty dovetail saddles for the Skytee. Altair’s dual fit one is a direct bolt on. 🙂

Edited August 21, 2019 by johninderby

[jam1e1]

I use the ST2 with both an APM152 and 12" F4 Newt, not at same time, but only on side puck. I upgraded the puck to a longer one too as the manufacturers ones are insufficient in my opinion, think its the ADM one i upgraded to.  Note with a frac suggest get the pillar too for viewing around zenith. It dampens relatively quickly and performs well for me - as per above comments yes there is room for improvement, but for a fair priced/performance setup does the job.

Edited August 21, 2019 by jam1e1

[johninderby]

If only the T-rex mount was still available. 😢

[iPeace]

7 hours ago, JTEC said:

I’ve looked at the AZ8. Does anyone have experience of these?

Yes. Love it.

7 hours ago, JeremyS said:

I considered the Losmandy AZ8, but the advice there was that the mechanics are like the GM8

This is true insofar as it is comprised of parts milled to the same spec. As such, I'm inclined to regard it as equal to a GM8, but I've never used one of those.

5 hours ago, JTEC said:

The figures, 16kg a side, suggest that the AZ8 ought to be up to it.

 

4 hours ago, John said:

I have considered a Losmandy AZ8 but I'm not convinced that it will offer any additional stability.

I'd like to help, but I must tread carefully here. I use a 8" f/6 Newtonian on the AZ8 atop a Berlebach PLANET tripod to my complete satisfaction. Smaller refractors, as you might expect, are handled with absolute glee. On the other hand, I wasn't so happy with a 120ED on it - but in hindsight, I wasn't used to such a large scope back then (long before the Newt), so I may have been wanting too much.

56 minutes ago, John said:

It is not just the tube weight that creates the challenge for the mount of course, the length of the tube, in the case of these large refractors, is a major contributary factor as well.

...so that might have been the issue for me. Now, the AZ8 doesn't hold the 8" f/6 absolutely rock-solid-dead-still when you work the focuser whilst wearing oven mitts, but then I don't expect it to (could any mount?). It does very easily carry the weight very smoothly, properly counterweighted of course, and it's a great solution for my current herd.

So, what to say? It's portable, very well made, will not fall apart and will carry the weight. But how much you enjoy the experience (and this may apply to any 'portable' mount), especially at higher magnifications, may well depend more on your expectations than on anything else.

Good luck.

[JTEC]

Well, that is tremendously helpful and reassuring ...  thank you all so much for taking time to respond.  

In fact I’d dismissed the SkyTee because I didn’t think it would be up to the job, but in view of what some of you have said (John and Jam1e1), I’m inclined to give it a go. I already have a tripod and the pillar that will fit, so, by comparison with the Ercole, the other clear contender, it will be the least expensive way to try out the idea in principle - and it might turn out to be ‘the answer’ 👍🏻

John E

[johninderby]

Old pic of a TS152 refractor on a Skytee II. At the time had experimented with fitting Synscan system to the Skytee.

Edited August 21, 2019 by johninderby

[JTEC]

Thanks John.  Looks fine 🙂.  The TEC is a bit longer and heavier than the TS, I think, but not hugely so - looks definitely worth a shot. I’ve also asked TS for their opinion - wonder what they’ll come up with 🤔

[johninderby]

The one I have now iis actualy the TS version. Same as the Skytee but has mounting holes for a dovetail plate on the “white” end as well as the black end so you have more mounting options. The differance I noticed between the Skytee and the TS is that the TS didn’t suffer from backlash. Maybe better quality control or just luck?

TS gives the higher max load same as most give for the Skytee. Doesn’t come with any dovetail clamps but not a problem.

TEC 140 OTA weight 8.62kg

TS 152 OTA weight 8.5kg

Edited August 21, 2019 by johninderby

[jock1958]

I concur what’s been said about the ST2 it’s a bit rough around the edges but does the job very well with my Tak 100DL & Tal 100RS. 

I bought an Ercole and really wanted to love it, however there is a few short comings IMO. You need to have it perfectly balanced and always remember to have the top friction brake screwed in when swapping eyepieces....which I didn’t on a couple of occasions! 

Ive gone back to my ST2 because it’s so much more forgiving, and with the addition of slo mo controls. 

Edited August 22, 2019 by jock1958

[JTEC]

Well, make of this what you will.  I emailed Teleskop-Service with the question:

’Do you have an alt-az mount that you could recommend for a TEC 140, please?’

Here’s their reply:

’We only have one mount that is stable enough.’   And they sent the following link - oddly, no mention of the Ercole.

https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/language/en/info/p4537_TS-Optics-AZ5-Azimutale-Montierung-mit-Stativ-und-Feinverstellung.html

 

 

[jock1958]

13 minutes ago, JTEC said:

Well, make of this what you will.  I emailed Teleskop-Service with the question:

’Do you have an alt-az mount that you could recommend for a TEC 140, please?’

Here’s their reply:

’We only have one mount that is stable enough.’   And they sent the following link - oddly, no mention of the Ercole.

https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/language/en/info/p4537_TS-Optics-AZ5-Azimutale-Montierung-mit-Stativ-und-Feinverstellung.html

 

 

I think TS have answered your question.

Don’t get me wrong the Ercole is beautifully engineered but for me the ST2 offers that extra bit of stability and flexibility especially when viewing at high power.

Not sure if your on a budget or not but they crop up regularly second hand on UK ABS.

 

Edited August 22, 2019 by jock1958

[Doc]

I used to have the Losmandy AZ8 mounted on a barlebach Planet tripod, it took the weight of a Skywatcher 120ED Esprit which is not a light scope by any means and I would imagine heavier then the 140mm TEC. I only sold it because I made my own clones of the TTS Panther and DiscMount. 

The AZ8 is very well machined and once balanced very smooth, the slow motion controls are very nice, even the degree scales work and are accurate.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2019 by Doc