Usability of astronomy equipment - pre-historic hand controller vs non-tactile mobile

[ThomasLondon]

Sorry for venting - but today I had the two extremes of bad user interfaces...

I wanted to have a look at the sun - and instead of putting my Lunt just on my Manfrotto tripod with gear head (as I usually do) I decided to use the mount of my Celestron Nexstar Evolution. 

Option 1: Hand controller. This piece of plastic must be essentially the same for about 25 years. It still has no internal clock and no non-volatile memory - whenever I switch on the mount I have to tell it that I am in the UK, enter time and date (in US notation obviously - what else) and select the solar system sync to even have the sun as an option to sync to. Argh! How complicated would it be to have a clock and a bit of memory in the mount and have the controller read all relevant data from there on start-up?

Option 2: Sky Safari. At least it remembers from last time to talk to a Celestron Wifi telescope. It can't tell my Android phone to use the Wifi network of the telescope. But worse: It is bad enough I just have the screen instead of hardware buttons. But why are the buttons on screen tiny little strips at the very edge of the phone, where 1) it's really difficult to hit them and 2) it's impossible not to hit them when holding the phone? Which benefit does it have to use most of the screen for a sky map which is not yet synced with the phone, while I have to fiddle with tiny buttons when looking at/ though the finder? (the new version of Sky Safari allows to tilt the phone - was great until I put it the phone back into my pocket and the tube went into an unstoppable nose dive...)

Can it be that hard to modernize hardware in a reasonable way instead of throwing out the baby with the bathwater and make everything dependent on an app which is clearly inferior to a dedicated controller? Both Celestron and Skywatcher seem to go down this rabbit hole. Is that really necessary?

[Stu]

There do seem to be deficiencies with both systems, don't there?

I have an AZGTi mount which is supposed to use a smartphone as the controller, but I must say I prefer to use it with a controller instead as it is much easier to use, buttons are easier to find in the dark.

Talking of ancient controllers though, I do like the Vixen Skysensor 2000 controllers which used to be supplied with the GP and GP-DX mounts. It is very easy to use, remembers the date and time, and can even remember its alignment if you haven't moved the mount. Up and running very quickly AND it will also connect to Skysafari ??

[JeremyS]

53 minutes ago, Stu said:

Talking of ancient controllers though, I do like the Vixen Skysensor 2000 controllers which used to be supplied with the GP and GP-DX mounts. It is very easy to use, remembers the date and time, and can even remember its alignment if you haven't moved the mount.

Couldn't agree more Stu. Vixen SS2K was a cracking unit. I think they go back to 1997. Amazing?

[steveex2003]

Is the general consensus that the tactile nature of the handset despite its trailing lead (i assume it draws power from the connected head?) is the better experience over the phone powered Synscan App? Occasionally using an AZ GTI, I only have an Apple device and the 2 device workaround for Sky Safari doesn't really interest me. That all said, the only thing I find unpleasant is the cursor key operation/enter functions during observation. 

[Stu]

1 hour ago, steveex2003 said:

Is the general consensus that the tactile nature of the handset despite its trailing lead (i assume it draws power from the connected head?) is the better experience over the phone powered Synscan App? Occasionally using an AZ GTI, I only have an Apple device and the 2 device workaround for Sky Safari doesn't really interest me. That all said, the only thing I find unpleasant is the cursor key operation/enter functions during observation. 

That's what I've tended to do Steve, use the handset instead of the phone.

You can use the handset and SkyWire or SkyFi to connect to an iPhone without needing a second device. It's a bit cumbersome but works.

[adyj1]

The main reason I prefer the handset to the phone is that the app makes me disconnect from the internet and basically hijacks my phone completely... I don't want to dedicate my phone to the az-GTi, thank you very much!

I dislike the onscreen buttons, and for me to see anything, my phone is too bright for dark-sky use... 

The app definitely has advantages, but too many disadvantages, IMHO. I'm glad I had the handset from an old AZ Goto that I could use. 

[AdeKing]

I use a v3 or v4 handset with my AZGti too, I find it much easier to control the mount with proper keys that I can feel. 

I'm pretty sure that connecting a SynScan handset to the AZGTi also adds the ability to do a 1 star align on the Sun to the handset whilst it's connected, just like you can in the app. There is no such option when the same handset is connected to my EQ5 just the regular Solar Tracking mode. 

As Stu said, adding Skyfi gives full SkySafari operation, though I've only been able to get it working with an iPhone. 

[steveex2003]

Never having used a Synscan handset, do you find the menu structures easily navigated? The Synscan App does allow very simple negotiation of various objects.
I am tempted to grab a used handset for tryings sake. 
Skyfi. A quick look indicates this is a wifi enabled dongle? In terms of the GTI what would Skyfi add, other than the ability to use an iphone?

[AdeKing]

11 minutes ago, steveex2003 said:

Skyfi. A quick look indicates this is a wifi enabled dongle? In terms of the GTI what would Skyfi add, other than the ability to use an iphone?

The app is supposed to allow you to control the mount from the SkySafari planetarium app which gives you a much greater number of targets than the SynScan app does. However, many users have found that the SynScan app doesn't work properly with SkySafari. 

[Stu]

56 minutes ago, steveex2003 said:

In terms of the GTI what would Skyfi add, other than the ability to use an iphone?

Simple answer is nothing. I had a Skyfi unit anyway and found that it worked well. Skywire is a cheaper alternative but obviously with a wired connection 

[adyj1]

1 hour ago, steveex2003 said:

Never having used a Synscan handset, do you find the menu structures easily navigated?

The handset menus are a bit arcane - not nearly as easy as the app,and I can imagine someone new to both getting a bit frustrated with the handset. 

I learnt them when there was no choice ? 

[ThomasLondon]

So does the SkyWatcher handset at least "play nicely" with the app? If I connect the Celestron handset while connecting to the mount via WiFi the whole system gets completely confused - the app does not seem to know of the changes I make via handset buttons, and the handset does not pick up the time and date set by the app. It all is a complete mess-up. Can't imagine how an intelligent human being comes up with sth like that.

[Hallingskies]

On 14/04/2019 at 19:43, JeremyS said:

Couldn't agree more Stu. Vixen SS2K was a cracking unit. I think they go back to 1997. Amazing?

Still the best telescope hand controller ever, let down by its weak connection leads.  Pointing accuracy superb, really user friendly.  Shame Vixen dropped it for their Skybook, which was/is rather clumsy by comparison imo.   If Vixen brought it back with Skywatcher-style leads and stepper motors they would have a winner.

[Ibbo!]

2 minutes ago, Hallingskies said:

Still the best telescope hand controller ever, let down by its weak connection leads.  Pointing accuracy superb, really user friendly.  Shame Vixen dropped it for their Skybook, which was/is rather clumsy by comparison imo.   If Vixen brought it back with Skywatcher-style leads and stepper motors they would have a winner.

I agree just put the skysync on mine as the connectors gave up the ghost.

Not going to get rid though as I might have a go at soldering the wires direct to the board.

[Hallingskies]

1 minute ago, Ibbo! said:

I agree just put the skysync on mine as the connectors gave up the ghost.

Not going to get rid though as I might have a go at soldering the wires direct to the board.

Yep, I did the same.  Also had the same thought re. wires, but my soldering skills would not be up to it.  There’s a lot of wires quite close together on really small circuit paths.  Think the fault is in the plug rather than the socket, but both are rubbish really.  Can’t bear the thought of trashing the handset though, it still works fine, just not reliably.