Light intrusion

[Carbon Brush]

This part, I do not understand.....

Street lighting does not come under nuisance laws as the know it all man shouted me down with.

Sorry but I am not familiar with all the latest laws. But I do not understand how shining lights into property without restriction or consideration for the occupants is beyond the law.

Is there someone on SGL familiar with the laws in this area who can help out Wookie1965?

All it needs is a pointer to 'The nasty intrusions law 1999' or whatever it is.

There are laws about hanging around in groups (under street lights), dropping litter, dog fouling, drinking in public places, loud music, revving engines and many more.
It just does not make sense that shining nuisance lights is outside the law.

The good news is that when you get the pointers to the relevant laws, you have ammunition.

Go straight above the 'know it all' to his head of department. Point out the incompetence of his staff. If he says his staff are incompetent then apologise for your error and say you now realise he lied to you. Yes a tack I have used more than once. If you are given incorrect information then the person providing the information either does not know his subject, or he lied. either way you have the upper hand.

Go to your local councillors with a strong letter about their ignorance and ask which of will open a complaint on your behalf to the local government ombudsman.
The grounds for the complaint being that the council acted incorrectly. I did this once on a planning matter and there was a LOT of egg on faces.
I like to think that the chief planning officer deciding to move on before the ombudsman report was published was related to the matter.
Councils in general and 'high up' employees do not like having ombudsman reports in their history.

Keep at it. I am sure there has to be someone on SGL who can point you in the right direction to quote a particular law.

In my noise issue, the starting point was a pointer to a law. The Control Of Pollution Act 1974. Quoting a line or two from this demonstrated the council had a legal duty to control any pollution reported to them. Following it up caused the noise maker to be shut down. It caused the planning department to receive a rebuke from the local government ombudsman. It caused a lot of embarrassment to the 'high ups' on the payroll.

Maybe you could use this law as a starting point. Light is recognised as pollution. If you start here, then the 'know it all's boss has to demonstrate how a later law makes your case invalid.
Grab a copy of the law. Take the extract and send it to the council environmental health officer. That is the department that has to deal with pollution.

I am not saying that my approach is best. But you do not have any other suggestions yet from other SGL members.

Don't give up. When you get your victory it will not only help you. It can be used to add weight to complaints from anyone else suffering light intrusion anywhere in the UK.

This is why I don't understand why you are not being inundated with useful and relevant advice from SGL members with more up to date and detailed knowledge than I have.

David.

 

 

 

[wookie1965]

2 hours ago, Carbon Brush said:

This part, I do not understand.....

Street lighting does not come under nuisance laws as the know it all man shouted me down with.

Sorry but I am not familiar with all the latest laws. But I do not understand how shining lights into property without restriction or consideration for the occupants is beyond the law.

Is there someone on SGL familiar with the laws in this area who can help out Wookie1965?

All it needs is a pointer to 'The nasty intrusions law 1999' or whatever it is.

There are laws about hanging around in groups (under street lights), dropping litter, dog fouling, drinking in public places, loud music, revving engines and many more.
It just does not make sense that shining nuisance lights is outside the law.

The good news is that when you get the pointers to the relevant laws, you have ammunition.

Go straight above the 'know it all' to his head of department. Point out the incompetence of his staff. If he says his staff are incompetent then apologise for your error and say you now realise he lied to you. Yes a tack I have used more than once. If you are given incorrect information then the person providing the information either does not know his subject, or he lied. either way you have the upper hand.

Go to your local councillors with a strong letter about their ignorance and ask which of will open a complaint on your behalf to the local government ombudsman.
The grounds for the complaint being that the council acted incorrectly. I did this once on a planning matter and there was a LOT of egg on faces.
I like to think that the chief planning officer deciding to move on before the ombudsman report was published was related to the matter.
Councils in general and 'high up' employees do not like having ombudsman reports in their history.

Keep at it. I am sure there has to be someone on SGL who can point you in the right direction to quote a particular law.

In my noise issue, the starting point was a pointer to a law. The Control Of Pollution Act 1974. Quoting a line or two from this demonstrated the council had a legal duty to control any pollution reported to them. Following it up caused the noise maker to be shut down. It caused the planning department to receive a rebuke from the local government ombudsman. It caused a lot of embarrassment to the 'high ups' on the payroll.

Maybe you could use this law as a starting point. Light is recognised as pollution. If you start here, then the 'know it all's boss has to demonstrate how a later law makes your case invalid.
Grab a copy of the law. Take the extract and send it to the council environmental health officer. That is the department that has to deal with pollution.

I am not saying that my approach is best. But you do not have any other suggestions yet from other SGL members.

Don't give up. When you get your victory it will not only help you. It can be used to add weight to complaints from anyone else suffering light intrusion anywhere in the UK.

This is why I don't understand why you are not being inundated with useful and relevant advice from SGL members with more up to date and detailed knowledge than I have.

David.

 

 

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/artificial-light-nuisances-how-councils-deal-with-complaints scroll down to Artificial light not covered by statutory nuisance , I cannot believe it if it invades my property making my life a misery but I cannot do anything about it.

I have wrote to both my local Councillors and have not received a reply from any of them. 

I have messaged the Commission for dark skies: Protect the night all I have got back from them is a message asking where I am.

 

[kirkster501]

To be fair to the council, as soon as they shield the light, someone else will be complaining that their garden is now in the dark as a result a [potential] shield being fitted, that they now feel vulnerable and unsafe in the dark, and that the council should remove it before someone is mugged or worse....  

 

[Carbon Brush]

Don't forget the difference between an councillor, and a council employee.

A councillor is someone elected to represent people. It is an unpaid activity.
The people who do this range from those with a genuine concern for the quality of life in their area and work tirelessly, to those with a political agenda who don't care about the people who elected them. Enough on politics.
To become a councillor you need to get voted in. No skills, knowledge, experience, or comptenece are required.
In fact once in the 'job' you can essentially do nothing and get away with it. For example ignoring letters from a member of the public.
Unless a councillor does blatantly illegal things like fiddling expense claims or promoting planning applications for friends and family, it is difficult to get thrown out before election time.

A council employee is a worker, like a worker in any other company or organisation.
The employee must therefore be qualified for the job (whether litter picker or chief exec) and carry out the duties defined for the job.

If you write to the lighting dept to complain about light intrusion, there is probably a rule that says they must respond within a given time.
The reply cannot contain lies. But it does not have to be helpful.

For example, if you write about a nuisance street light and inadvertently try to invoke laws that govern lighting in or on premises, they will probably respond by saying the complaint is not valid.
From the sound of things, this is what they have done to you.
They will not say anything along the lines of... If you had said it disturbs the mating frogs in your garden we could do something.
In other words, if you ask the wrong question, they will not do anything to point you in the right direction.

Think of asking someone for directions.
Is this the right road to the sports centre? Reply No.
Helpful reply. No but if you turn around and go left at the road junction......

I have yet to experience a helpful reply from a council employee. In fact I have had them (on lighting matters) deliberately try to bamboozle me.
Things like. This road a class nn feeder to a trunk road and therefore requires (under law xxx of 1999) lighting to BS12345 part 678. But no explanation of what it means.
This was their response to me telling them they were daft for installing light fittings in tree canopies instead of over the road.
Unhelpful? Obstructive? But not ignoring me and not lying to me. Definitely trying to draw attention away from their stupidity.

My past experiences on lighting issues with CFDS and CPRE have not impressed me.  If anyone knows different - shout now. Wookie1965 really needs your help.

David.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wookie1965]

3 hours ago, kirkster501 said:

To be fair to the council, as soon as they shield the light, someone else will be complaining that their garden is now in the dark as a result a [potential] shield being fitted, that they now feel vulnerable and unsafe in the dark, and that the council should remove it before someone is mugged or worse....  

 

There was a broken light there for nearly a year with the lights at both ends of the parking spaces it did not need one. The old one was concrete post with the yellow light this one which has replaced it is at least 2 feet taller. The shield they have put on is of no use what so ever. This is ridiculous.

[cotterless45]

I cannot fathom why they don't sort this out. Part of the light pollution law covers enjoyment of your property . I don't think anyone on this forum would be putting up with this ,

I think that you have been unlucky enough to come across both incompetence and ignorance . Personally I'd collect all your evidence , send it the chief executive and a copy to your local newspaper. Beyond beleif,

Nick.

[domstar]

They have agreed that the light needs shielding. Now they should be open to the suggestion that a better light shield could ease your (and their) difficulties. It's the classic 'foot in the door' approach. They've put up a shield. The next step is to put up an effective one.

Good luck.

[kirkster501]

When my council put up a light shield, it was as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike, chocolate tea teapot, igloo in Saudi Arabia (choose own useless analogy)...

[Alan White]

3 hours ago, domstar said:

They have agreed that the light needs shielding. Now they should be open to the suggestion that a better light shield could ease your (and their) difficulties. It's the classic 'foot in the door' approach. They've put up a shield. The next step is to put up an effective one.

I have to agree with this suggestion, once an action is taken although not effective,they have admitted a problem exists and therefore may now be more likely (even if it takes strong arms tactics) to improve upon the situation further.
Do however remember all Local Authorities are hard pushed funds wise and it may not be a priority for them due to this.
 

[happy-kat]

Is the lamp head horizontal or quite angled? Horizontal lights control light spill better.

[wookie1965]

It looks horizontal the shield looks about 2 " deep

[wookie1965]

The following 3 pictures are one taken from my back door one half way down the garden over the shed then last where I would normally set up.

[Carbon Brush]

I am still hoping for someone on SGL to come up with some more recent rulings that you can quote.
Surely there has to be someone.

You have encountered both ignorance and incompetence in the council employees. Sadly this is, in my experience, not exceptional.
It is interesting to note that in all of my council dealings, I have found that incorrect action by a council can lead to remedial actions being required.
However, incompetence is not grounds for action. For example a Local Governement Ombudsman report.
It would seem that incompetence is expected.

May I make a practical suggestion while the pen pushers are busy? It will pass some time while you are waiting for someone knowledgeable on SGL to help with rules and regulations.

Draw a sketch plan to show your property boundary, observing site, house location, etc.
Include on the plan the position and height of the offending light fitting, and location of your bedroom window(s).

From this information, it is possible to determine, using nothing more advanced than secondary school trigonometery, a size and location for an effective light shield.

You can present this to the ignorants (councillors and lighting department employees).
This will demonstrate how and why their biscuit tin lid is ineffective, and they have demonstrated their incompetence.

Off topic perhaps. But it may trigger someone on SGL who knows the details that may be of use to you.
I remember seeing a few years back a row of street lights with light shields to prevent glare into multiple houses.
I think was on a main road, north side of Cambridge. An area of new 'squash 'em in) housing, many buy to rent and multiple occupancy homes. Near to the Science Park, etc.
Figment of my imagination or does someone know about this?

David.
 

[wookie1965]

Thank you David, I will sketch said boundaries I will include measurements to upper bedroom window and height of lamp this should in anyone's language show if they are the same height the tin can shield is not fit for purpose.

Paul

[Carbon Brush]

Yesterday I met (socially) an employee of a county council. A professional and (in my opinion) competent person. But qualified and competent in a completely different area to street lighting.

I asked the question about light intrusion. A quick search of the GOV.UK website gave advice about intrusion from non-street lighting sources. It was obviously incomplete but implied (not stated) council street lighting immunity.
However, this site is often a coucil employees first port of call for central government advice/policies. That is matters not governed by local or county council policies.
Rather like some of us asking Mr Google for information and taking the first hit as factual and complete.

It was not appropriate to continue the discussion by challenging the 'first web hit' response. It does though in part explain the response you have suffered.
Obviously a look further down the 'hit list' is called for.

I would be interested to hear the repsone you eventually get from CFDS. At the Kettering show I met very enthusiastic and forthright proponents of the cause. Quite unlike my past experiences with them.
I bought some raffle tickets to help their fund, and considered further contributions.
But if they can't be bothered to respond to you, that will certainly influence my future support.

Keep us updated.

David.

 

[Carbon Brush]

I don't usually consider this journ al to be a source of reliable information, but here goes:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3471447/Can-t-sleep-Blame-road-s-street-lamps-Light-pollution-outside-bedrooms-linked-sleepless-nights.html

An interesting take from a Scottish council

https://www.westlothian.gov.uk/article/2218/Light-Pollution-and-Light-Nuisance

They specifically state:

What sources of potential light nuisance are covered under Statutory Nuisance Law?

Artificial light from sources such as street lighting,

Yes street lighting is first on the list to qualify as a statuory nuisance!

Keep at 'em.

David.

 

[wookie1965]

Thank you David it does not bode well when "The Mail" is highlighting my problem and obviously many thousand of other peoples problem but the advice is,  get thicker curtains, eye masks or darkening shades.

More than likely the rules in Scotland will be different to those in England, the only thing I can do is maybe contact a solicitor who gives half hour free advice. Wait for CFDS get back to me the last time they contacted me was the 5th of April after I asked for help on the 23rd of March they could be very busy.

I have looked everywhere I can think of read and re-read gov documents try to find a loophole to go back to the arrogant council man. 

Cheer`s Paul

[Prolifics]

I don't think filters are the option only as a last resort. Try and get the council to put a shield on the rear or change it for a red light. I have one of these in a similar place but my are red sodium and don't hurt the viewing too much.

[wookie1965]

3 hours ago, Prolifics said:

I don't think filters are the option only as a last resort. Try and get the council to put a shield on the rear or change it for a red light. I have one of these in a similar place but my are red sodium and don't hurt the viewing too much.

I have already asked council put a shield on this is what they have done.

[Prolifics]

Has it made a noticeable improvement through the scope? Will you be using your scope for visual or astro imaging?

[wookie1965]

visual only this is it after the shield was fitted I cannot go for anything in the south at all.

[Demonperformer]

I've never been known for a "softly, softly" approach to complaints, but ....

If it is claimed that the light is not invading your bedroom, can you find the phone numbers of your ward councillors? Then, when you pack up in the early hours one morning, phone them and invite them to come round now to see how much of a nuisance it is actually causing ...

[Carbon Brush]

Demonperformer - I like it!

Definitely one up on me shining a torch in a neighbours face!

Pehaps invite the coucillors, and environmental health, and lighting dept (first time at least) at a more reasonable hour.
If they don't attend, or have the courtesy to respond, then step up the time/fequency of calls.

When my messages are ignored without good reason, I double up on the reminders - every time. 1, 2, 4, 8, 16 - the messages do get a response eventually!

 

 

[wookie1965]

I have phoned left messages and emailed both my ward councillors as of today I have not had one reply.

Paul