Orion Optics UK VX12 advice

[Trentend]

Looking to upgrade from my cheap but effective 8 inch skywatcher reflector on an eq mount (which I find a pain in the ar*e to transport) to a more lightweight/portable 12inch dobsonian with greater aperture that will give a real wow factor on DSOs at local dark sites. Will be used for visual only and budget is up to £2k (a one off purchase with no £££ for anything else - honest). Will be used with a denkmeier standard binoviewer, power switch and pair of 24mm panoptics (I love this set up in the current scope but still find a lot of the DSOs just faint fuzzy blobs).

Nearly pulled the trigger on a second hand skywatcher 10 inch flextube goto, but not convinced the visuals will be that different to my current set up. I also had a go lifting a 12 inch flextube but found that too heavy / cumbersome (back hurt for a few days just lifting in and out the car once).

Portability / quick set up essential. Not interested in a truss at this stage - nights here in Scotland too unpredictable so want something I can set up in 5-10mins and be using pretty much straight away, albeit at low power as the scope cools down.

Been hunting for weeks on the internet. Can’t see anything from Meade, Skywatcher, Explore Scientific that fit the bill and some of the more bespoke companies are too expensive. Then stumbled across the Orion Optics UK site, the lightweight VX12 and their neat dobsonian mount.

Interested to hear people’s views on a few matters:

The company seem a little marmite - either very good (great optics / portability) or very bad (question marks over mirror performance claims, general quality and customer service lacking including some scare stories). Should I be concerned?

Next, have priced up for a 12 or 12l scope, mount, tube rings, trunion mount and friction brake. Would I need anything else to get going? 

Finally any views on the 12 (F4) v 12L (F5.3)? The former is shorter, a little lighter and perhaps more portable, but don’t think I’d find the 12L too big and would this ultimately be cheaper (no parracor?) and more forgiving? 14 inch is going to be over budget.

Thanks

[Paz]

I got a second hand VX14 after a lot of waiting for one to come up. Second hand means less cost and that quality control issues have already been dealt with.

A 12" will be possible to set up single handed (I can set up and take down my 14" my myself, it takes a bit of strength but it is doable).

If cost is an issue the 12L would be better to avoid a paracorr but using eyepieces with smaller fields of view would also mitigate coma. My VX is f4.6 and I much prefer it with a paracorr in, but other users may have other perspectives.

Regarding equipment the only other things I would mention to get going are a finder set up (I would vote for a telrad and a 9*50 raci finde) and something for collimating, but a collimating cap would do and wouldn't cost much.

The solid tubes have a set up advantage in that you can have everything set up on the tube and lift the whole thing out ready to go. My quick set up is tube, base, eyepiece case and that's it.

Edited February 16, 2019 by Paz

[rl]

I have 3 scopes currently in my posession made by OO

150mm f/6 1/10 wave

200mm f/4.5 carbon fibre 1/12 wave (special order to request). Possibly the best all-rounder (for my circumstances) I have ever owned, any type of scope. 

300mm f/3.8 carbon fibre astrograph 1/10 wave

I bought the first two new and both were delivered on schedule. The only fault was a brass compression ring missing on a 2" extender. 

Optically all are as good as can possibly be expected from a Newtonian. All have test certificates, the validity of which I have never had question to doubt.

I too have heard the stories; indeed, I bought an early Maksutov 140mm off them in 2000 and it was never right even after repeated returns to the factory. After several years of unsatisfied ownership I ended up giving it away to a school. But a lot seems to have improved since they got the Zygo tester; before that they could be a very hit and miss. Basically it's a small company with a large order book and sometimes things go wrong..that's never an excuse for poor customer service but I run a small business myself so have some small degree of sympathy when outside factors interfere! There are a lot of people who can get quite vocal over long delays or other issues, but the satisfied customers will be a silent majority wondering what all the fuss was about. But if you're the one waiting for months on end I'm sure it can be really frustrating....it's a risk. 

You can't really go wrong taking the Skywatcher route; they make more before breakfast then OO do in a year so they must be doing a lot right. I've owned skywatchers aplenty and always been happy with them (but curiously enough I've always been happier with their refractors). OO probably do make better mirrors but I would concede that whether the difference is important is questionable under uk skies. Nine nights out of ten the sky limits the resolution to one arcsecond at best, so you can argue that any scope over 6" meeting the Rayleigh criterion will show you all there is to see in terms of detail if not brightness. Personally I take a different view and would rather be best equipped with my main scope for that tenth night, or even the fleeting moments of half-arcsecond seeing on an average night. The real point of a mirror with 99.5% Strehl is that the scope as a whole will make 80% after the secondary has done its worst with diffraction effects. 

OO have been around for over 30 years now which probably says something in itself. 

Not sure if this helps, but it's one man's experience over many years with them.

RL

 

 

 

[Paul73]

How about something like this?

https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/language/en/info/p8401_Sumerian-Optics-Alkaid-12--f-5-Dobsonian-Telescope.html

@garryblueboy was selling similar with Zumbato mirrors. I can’t remember the exact details, but I do remember that it was a serious scope! It was a couple of weeks ago so it may have found a new home. Might need a bit more than £2k, but you are used to quality gear......

Paul

[John]

My 12 inch dob comprises of an Orion Optics optical tube assembly (bought pre-owned) and a mount made for me by a skilled SGL member in a similar style to the Orion Optics ones. It's my least expensive scope but has given me more enjoyment and "wow" moments than any other that I have owned. It's also quite light and easy to move around for a 12 inch aperture scope weighing about the same as a 10 inch Skywatcher dob. That weight difference makes a lot of difference to me because I need to be able to set the scope up and tear it down quickly and move it about during a session. I found the 12" Skywatcher and Meade dobs a bit too heavy to move around with ease, for me at least.

The primary in mine is what Orion Optics call Research Grade in terms of quality. It performs very well

Having had dealings with Orion Optics over some smaller orders I would not buy one new from them though. Nor would I buy a new one at all to be honest with you. They depreciate a lot so waiting around until a decent used one crops up is the way that I would play it.

 

[scarp15]

Include the variable friction brake and option at a small additional cost for the angled 50mm finder. Consider including a Telrad and a riser base 4" would be best, 2" though is fine. The stock focusers function very well on current models. As with Paz, I have a VX14 and can manage it OK and for your stated reasons, it will haul into the car and out to be quickly set up. I check the collimation at home and do not bother especially when dark at an intended location. At the end of the session, it is a quick manoeuvre to haul back in once more and head off. I have a paracorr and do use it, but I also use it without, a lot depends on the type of observing targets I plan for. A VX12 or VX 12L will be excellent taken to a dark environment, the Dobsonian mount functions very well, consider a ground mat for level support. OOUK at retail will offer a 5% discount, occasionally they do appear S/H. If ordering new, be prepared to be patient and ongoing friendly phone calls or email will help with communicating the order process.  The mirrors are excellent with great contrast. 

[garryblueboy]

5 hours ago, Paul73 said:

How about something like this?

https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/language/en/info/p8401_Sumerian-Optics-Alkaid-12--f-5-Dobsonian-Telescope.html

@garryblueboy was selling similar with Zumbato mirrors. I can’t remember the exact details, but I do remember that it was a serious scope! It was a couple of weeks ago so it may have found a new home. Might need a bit more than £2k, but you are used to quality gear......

Paul

It still is available I took the add down after the usual of topic remarks etc but may be over the budget of the op but there no lighter 14” inch set up I know it’s lighter than an 8 inch Dob lol

[Trentend]

Really appreciate the advice from everyone.

Looking at the weight/size there doesn’t appear to be much in the 12L and 14(!), although the latter retails for circa £700 more, so that rules it out (unless I wait for something used). Very keen on the 12 F4 (that is super light) but need to find out more about these paracorrs - what they do, is there an impact on magnification, field of view, would I need a type 1 or 2 etc... Presume given I have panoptics the eyepieces should be able to cope in a faster version? Will I have any focusing issues using a binoviewer?...

Edited February 17, 2019 by Trentend

[scarp15]

the 12" F4 will be more critical requiring attention collimating, though not a concern really and will be both lighter and more portable for transporting into a vehicle. A paracorr will increase focal ratio / length, magnification by 15% and create a slightly narrower TFOV. You may decide that you would like a paracorr, it may be best to get the scope first and try with your eyepieces for a few sessions and perhaps look out for a used one. I cannot comment on the type 1, the type 2 though is quite straight forward to use and cleans up any concerns over coma and filters are easy to attach. Panoptics will be fine, I do not use a binoviewer, again perhaps have to try out to determine focusing issues, with either option this ought to be corrected using applicable extension tube(s).

[Paul73]

Why go to F4 when you don’t need to? At >16”, yes, otherwise you need a set of steps. But, 4.5 to 5 is much more forgiving on the Eyepieces. At f4 (my 16” OOUK) you need premium eyepieces. Even the well regarded TV  Panoptics were not acceptable without correction. The £££!Delos range worked well. But it isn’t all bad news; mid range 82° Eyepieces in the £120 to £220 range work fine with a Parracor...... At f4.7 (my 10” pea shooter) you can get away with less exotic glass.

In fact, I have a set of ES 82°‘s heading my way as we speak, for use with the f4 16” with Parracor (Ml1b).

Paul

Edited February 17, 2019 by Paul73
.

[John]

Mine is F/5.3. I don't use a Paracorr and find the field pretty well corrected even with 100 degree eyepieces. There probably is some coma showing right out by the field stop but it's certainly not distracting or obvious in any way, at least to my eyes. I do find astigmatism distracting and annoying though so I try and avoid that aberration if possible.

[Trentend]

All of my viewing will be visual using the binoviewer. Would that work with a paracorr?

What’s putting me off the 5.3 is the size, which is too temptingly similar to the 14inch...

[scarp15]

The VX12L is lighter than the VX14 by 4kg. This is significant as the VX14 weight is comparable to lifting a Skywatcher Flextube 12", which I had moved from and in your intro considered too heavy. The VX12L F5.3 is also a little shorter, I feel that as like others have suggested, that this would make for a better choice. The aperture gained from an 8" reflector will be significant and no need for a paracorr, therefore maybe less complications perhaps applied to using your binoviewers. The VX12 focal length might had become appealing if perhaps you required a slightly wider true field if using ultra wide field eyepieces.   

[Trentend]

You’re right thanks Vx12l seems like the sensible route based on my original requirements. Must stop drinking and surfing for scopes...

[jam1e1]

I did a brief review on my OO 12" F4 when bought new from OO. Optically its superb and the star colours really come out well and sharp on a good night of seeing with paracorr across most of FoV. I got the 1/10 mirror and performs very well, feels a step up from skywatcher in terms of optics and focuser,  owned both 8" and 10" before.

However, i had some minor mechanical issues. 1) when unboxed there was a fragment or two of broken glass, however never determined where it came from and mirror appear fine so let that one pass ( i fed back to them). 2) The primary mirror moved slightly when passed over vertical hence lost collimation- cut a long story short i had to disassemble scope and found out the collimation / adjustment screws on primary were never quite adjusted correctly, fixed myself and now solid holding and recollimated fine. 3) the focuser 'broke' the other day(after about 2 years of owning), in summary the 10-1 focuser lost all grip, had to take focuser apart and found a screw had some how come loose, now fixed. Scope is back in working order. Had i been less DIY capable would have posed a frustrating experience, however managed to fix so all good. 4) the scope ring tighteners are quite small and on a cold night really hard to properly tighten if fingers cold hence couple of times ive had scope slightly slip though not too big of deal. 5) the dovetail is not very long at all c 8 inch roughly hence not much play to move up/down to get EP in good position if using non dob mount - you can buy bigger adapter but they quoted me c£150 for adapter to get longer dovetail.

Overall, optically I love it, QA could do with some work and mechanically there are improvements to be made. Keep in mind SW were not flawless, but price a lot lower given economy of scale.

Would I buy again .............Yes if got a good discount (i.e from a show where they tend to give discount e.g. astrofest)

tried to keep it factual as possible, hope that helps. J

 

[Nigella Bryant]

Late to the topic, but if other's are looking, I'd bought a second hand 12inch f4 orion optics UK Newtonian and it's the best scope I've owned, highly recommended. 

Edited August 1, 2019 by Nigella Bryant
Pic added

[pete_l]

1 hour ago, Nigella Bryant said:

I'd bought a second hand 12inch f4 orion optics UK Newtonian and it's the best scope I've owned, highly recommended.

It does seem that when they're good, they're very, very, good. But when they are bad they are horrid;

I feel a "Dirty Harry" quote coming on!

[John]

2 hours ago, pete_l said:

It does seem that when they're good, they're very, very, good. But when they are bad they are horrid;

I feel a "Dirty Harry" quote coming on!

I bought my OO scopes used - someone else had the fun of dealing with OO and sorting out any issues. Plus they had depreciated around 50% so made more budgetary sense, to me.

 

[Ships and Stars]

Not to drive you crazy, but I'd go for a used one if you can find it, much more scope for the ££ after depreciation. I'm in NE Scotland and have a 20" SW Stargate 500p dob I bought as new, never used, for a very substantial discount. The previous owner became ill and could unfortunately no longer set it up. I started off looking at 10-12" dobs, but aperture fever took me early on, haha (my first real scope!). 

I think the SW truss rod dobs are quite portable for what they are (the 18" & 20" Stargates) but at the end of the day, they definitely aren't light either!

Transport is another issue. I've used it at home, mainly lunar, but loads of LP here right where I live and very obscured views of the sky, versus excellent skies no too terrible far away.

I've a van and bought some aluminium loading ramps so I can cart the mirror+cradle assembly into the back in one piece with the drive cable assembled and ready to go. Once that's rolled out and on the ground, setup and takedown is fast, a matter of minutes generally to install and remove the truss rods and tophat (is that what it is generally called, or am I making this up!?) , even in the dark. I generally don't use the truss braces as it's very rigid once things are tightened down, unless it's going to be parked in the same place for some time or I arrive to my dark sky site early. It requires collimation each time, but it's fast and simple enough to do.

I've only been out with it a few times in the late spring, so waiting for true darkness to arrive once again. August 12th is when proper viewing season starts again here. I've booked two weeks off work in Sep, can't wait, will be driving around Scotland chasing clear skies, fingers crossed, not too far from home. 

Anyway, having said all of this, a 12" or 14" solid tube dob would be great from a portability standpoint. If you put the word out, a second hand one might come your way for a great price. Otherwise, if you have the cash and don't want the hassle of chasing one down, then a shiny new one sounds nice as well.

Good luck and clear skies, let us know what you end up with.

Edited August 2, 2019 by Ships and Stars
clarification