Eyepiece upgrade - TeleVue ?

[John]

I'd like to try one of ES's 92 degree eyepieces. They are not exactly low cost items over here though - you could say Tele Vue type prices !:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/explore-scientific-eyepieces/explore-scientific-92-ler-series-2-eyepieces.html

They are also some of the heaviest eyepieces around in the 2" fitting - 2.8 lbs for the 17mm.

I'll have to ask FLO nicely if they will lend me one during the winter to compare with my Ethos's

It's interesting that the eyepieces that ES developed themselves (ie: the 92's, the 9mm 120 and the 30mm 100) are, relatively speaking, considerably more expensive than those where there was an already established design to follow.

They have created a "stir" with these 92 degree ones though, no doubt about it. I wonder if more focal lengths are planned ?

 

[Astrokev]

Thanks guys.

I'm continuing my search for reviews. Currently looking at Baader Morpheus - good discussion on Cloudy Nights, especially for the 17.5mm,  which seems to rate them very highly cf. TV Delos and ES.

[heliumstar]

Morpheus is very nice. It is one of the easiest eyepieces to look through. It is the only eyepiece I can say that I can position my eye comfortably with no blackouts and sharp wide view. Look at Vixen SSW as well.

[John]

There were many aspects of the Vixen SSW's that I liked, and a few that I was less enthusiastic about:

 

[planetman83]

It happens I am selling a 20mm T5 nagler these days, very small for 2", lightweight and the views are awesome. It is a legendary eyepiece.

 

 

[rwilkey]

On 10/10/2018 at 23:58, Astrokev said:

Currently looking at Baader Morpheus

Hi Kev, the Baader Morpheus look very good for the price, not tried them yet but last week had the chance to try the Baader Aspheric eyepieces 31mm and 36mm, dead impressive for their price, very comfortable to use and good eye relief.  Great for the lower powers needed for many DSO's, M45 was particularly impressive.

[JTEC]

I use a TEC140 and a C11, often with a binoviewer, and have a varied collection of eyepieces, mostly Televue and Tak.  The Tak orthos seem excellent to me in both scopes and the 13mm Ethos is great in the refractor.  I’ve been especially impressed with the Delos line in both scopes - the 10mm is a particular favourite. Incidentally, I wouldn’t buy another Ethos because, wonderful though they are, the price is crazy. I also think the Delos has slightly better throughput than the Ethos and goes a little deeper, and I’m entirely happy with the more conservative fov. The ES 24mm I think is good value and the images have a nice brightness, contrast and crackle about them - I use it a lot.

If I were buying from scratch, I’d probably look to build a range of Tak orthos and a range of Deloses (...oi, if you must ;>) for wider field, then look to ES or another manufacturer other than Televue for a 100 degree exotic or two.

Having said all that, I just forked out for one of the Burgess monocentrics that BillP so expertly and helpfully just reviewed! So much for good intentions ... ?

John E

[Sagitta]

I keep reading Delos goes slightly deeper than Ethos. One day I think I'll buy one and see for myself. Though ideally you'd want similar focal lengths to judge it fairly. I'm sure there's someone's comparison somewhere on these two, and I've probably read it. For now I'm where I was hoping to get. I wanted to try out some excellent Meade 4000 series classics for my new telescope and sold them (EOFB annoyed me). Then I tried the TV Pan 35 and TV Nagler20T2, but sold them too after getting the Ethos 13.
I had read about 82° apparent fields feeling tight, when using together with 100°'s and I couldn't imagine feeling that way. But it happened. Some people will never like 100° ep's, perhaps mainly because of issues with eye relief. Though for me, going from a 13mm 100° to a 20mm 82° in one of my last observing sessions, did NOT feel comfortable, and I had only used that E13 for 10 minutes!

I think for anyone who really likes 100° ep's, getting the longest focal length available FIRST is the best way to go. Especially for deep-sky lovers with long focal length telescopes.
APM's offerings is the very best price/quality one can get I'd say also. I've never tried ES or any other 100° ep's besides APM and Televue, but just read around on how poorly ES and others compare to APM in general and you'll get the picture.
ES 92° ep's get better reviews though.

Televue Ethos is just a little bit sharper, a little bit better corrected ... and so it SHOULD be considering the difference in price. I've only noticed this when rapidly switching them btw. That's not observing, it's like working in a lab?.
Focal ratio should be considered most... Televue is likely to be better by a bigger margin in sub F4.5 telescopes. I've only compared at F5, with and without a Paracorr II coma corrector.

So.. upgrade to Televue? It depends... if budget allows generously, why the hell not? If budget matters more, as to most of us, I'd seriously consider APM. Better to have three 100° ep's, than just one and some others with smaller apparent fields.

It actually also depends on the type of observer. I don't like swapping eyepieces all the time, and I like big jumps in magnification. I'm minimalistic in that regard. So I can afford to spend a bit more per eyepiece, especially buying secondhand.
If one spends the time checking the classifieds when the wallet is ready, and a bit lucky as well... one can buy the best at the new price of some other brands.

Bottom line.. if I'd want a full range of focal lengths and I'd have an F4 or slower scope, being on a budget, I wouldn't buy Televue.

And the APM's sure look very pretty if you ask me..
 

[JTEC]

17 minutes ago, Sagitta said:

Better to have three 100° ep's, than just one and some others with smaller apparent fields.

That sounds debatable enough to be a whole new thread to me ?. As with scopes, so with eyepieces: horses for courses. Different designs for different applications. Don’t you think there’s an argument in favour of variety when it comes to optical design and consequent differences in behaviour and performance? 

[Astrokev]

Really enjoying this thread and the different views. 

Decided to go for Morpheus after playing with a few at the IAS today. So, got the 17.5mm. 

First impressions (out of scope) are great. Can't wait to try it on the sky once the clouds clear. 

Got it at a great price too - IAS discount!

[Ruud]

+1 for the Morpheus 17.5

Congratulations!

I really love mine, and also the 6.5mm.

[Sagitta]

17 minutes ago, JTEC said:

That sounds debatable enough to be a whole new thread to me ?. As with scopes, so with eyepieces: horses for courses. Different designs for different applications. Don’t you think there’s an argument in favour of variety when it comes to optical design and consequent differences in behaviour and performance? 

 

Hah! Maybe ?. Look, the OP stated he yearned for a spacewalk view, eyepieces (plural), Televue or not? Spacewalk is, these days; minimum 82°+ unless maximum eye relief is required. Then still, there's ES 92's.

I also read .. no glasses for observing - opinions wanted on UWA eyepieces etc.

So my conmment shouldn't apply to anyone. Some like having a small mak, a small refractor, a small reflector and a bunch of low-budget ortos to widefields. Others make choices and sacrifices..

I'm surprised you went for Morpheus Astrokev, asking for XWA and possibly Televue. What changed your mind? Have you looked through some UWA's in your C11?

[Sagitta]

JTEC.. of course I think there's some variety desirable in optical design. Personally, I had to make the choice between the biggest affordable Maksutov (or some SCT) for some of the best solar system views, together with a medium-sized fast Newton for deepsky, versus one big Dobson optimized for deepsky. I went for the big dob since, since I'm still at an age I can manage that, and when conditions allow, solar systems views are still better than with the 14" SCT I used to own. I would love an apo on top of my 20" F5 but I feel lucky enough as it is ?.

[JTEC]

Yep, agreed, when everything is optimised and the sky is cooperating the big Dobs can give great planetary images.  We were talking about eyepieces though. I take your point about the OP seeking the ‘spacewalk’ experience. No question, the Ethos etc give that extraordinary wide view.  My point was simply that there is nothing intrinsically preferable about eyepieces with wide apparent fields of view.  They are just one option among several.  For certain types of observation they are just the ticket, of course, and absolutely the way to go.

ATB

John E

[John]

42 minutes ago, JTEC said:

... intrinsically preferable about eyepieces with wide apparent fields of view....

 

I take the point that you are making John but I do feel that the 100 degree eyepieces that I've used (Ethos plus a few other brands now) are extremely high quality eyepieces. I feel that the manufacturers put their best efforts in to these "flagship" products.

When I was going through the 82 degree eyepiece phase a few years back I enjoyed many of those as well but I did feel that there was a slight compromise in outright performance to pay in exchange for the ultra-wide field when compared to very good quality "standard" field designs.

When I first tried 100 degree eyepieces (as someone who loves wide fields of view they were bound to appeal) I expected there to be some similar small compromises in return for the hyper wide AFoV but I've consistently found that the 100's are even better optically than the 82's and not just in terms of the FoV. Light scatter, neutral tone and sharpness seem to be really top notch and this includes the short focal length ones such as the 5mm, 3.5mm 110's (4.7mm and 3.7mm in the case of the Ethos SX).

Obviously the penalties of weight and cost remain with the 100's but optically these things are really excellent I reckon

I do appreciate that some folks simply don't want or like very wide fields of view, don't want that weight in their focuser or that bulk in their eyepiece case though. We are lucky that we have so much choice these days - who would have thought a couple of decades ago that there would be a choice of more than half a dozen 100 degree eyepiece ranges on the market plus many, many more good quality options with smaller AFoV's ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Astrokev]

@SagittaMy decision was based on a few considerations.

TeleVues are generally acknowledged as being at or near the top of the list - but they come at a premium price and, to be honest, I'm not sure I'm prepared to go that high. Not yet at least. "The best" they may be, but in terms of value for money this is debatable, especially considering that this is my first delve into wide-angle EP's and "modern" eyepiece designs!

Having read as many reviews on the web as I could lay my hands on, the Morpheus came out as a great eyepiece. Comparisons with TV Delos range (which are a smaller AFOV) were very favourable and, for the price I paid, I could get 2 Morpheus EP's for the price of 1 Delos, and the whole Morpheus range for the price of a single Ethos, with enough left over for some other bits 'n' bobs to boot. As regards other manufacturers, which is "best" seemed to depend on who you listened to! I therefore tried to take a balanced view across all of the reviews I could find.

I played with the Morpheus and a bunch of other XWA EP's on the stalls - admittedly this is not in-scope reviews - and was satisfied that the Morpheus appeared to give good views of the FOV without noticeable kidney-beaning or black-outs. The blurry-edge to the field-stop quoted in some reviews quite honestly doesn't bother me in the slightest. For the price paid, once I get it in the scope, if I'm not 100% satisfied then it's not the end of the world regarding wasted investment, and I can always sell it on (this seems unlikely).

Regarding the spacewalk views, sure 100 deg sounds and was great in the EP's I tried, but the 76 degs of the Morpheus was more than adequate once I looked through the EP.

Only time will tell of course, but I'm pretty happy with my choice so far.

Kev

[Sagitta]

7 hours ago, JTEC said:

Yep, agreed, when everything is optimised and the sky is cooperating the big Dobs can give great planetary images.  We were talking about eyepieces though. I take your point about the OP seeking the ‘spacewalk’ experience. No question, the Ethos etc give that extraordinary wide view.  My point was simply that there is nothing intrinsically preferable about eyepieces with wide apparent fields of view.  They are just one option among several.  For certain types of observation they are just the ticket, of course, and absolutely the way to go.

ATB

John E

Design differences in telescopes usually mean quite a difference in focal ratio. Newtonians offering the widest possible range. When choosing eyepieces we can not ignore the telescope, its F-ratio, it's focal length, the in-travel of the focuser (when barlows are chosen over higher mag. ep's), the kind of mirror, the availability of tracking etc..
I'm planning on trying out some plossls and some Delos's in the future as I believe they will be better for planetary observing, but I wouldn't use them in an untracked long focal length system.

A lot of variety in eyepiece design also boils down to who's using them (glasses, no glasses, deep-set eyes, personal preference..).
 

[Sagitta]

Astrokev, sounds you are happy with your choice and that's what's most important. I read some of those reviews too, comparing the Morpheus to the Delos, and if was looking into that kind of eyepiece, I would definitely try the Morpheus too.

If we compare the prices of the Morpheus to Delos and Ethos, the difference is crazy. Compared to other 100° offerings, not so. If I were to go back to an sct, I would sell my TV's and buy cheaper (for F6.3-10).
My 'widefield' eyepiece in the sct I owned was a TMB 40mm Paragon. Wonderful eyepiece.

Sounds like the jump for you to 76° is more than enough for the time being. Maybe one day you'll get tired of 76° and then you still have all these options ?. Clear skies now!

[Astrokev]

1 hour ago, Sagitta said:

Astrokev, sounds you are happy with your choice and that's what's most important.

Sounds like the jump for you to 76° is more than enough for the time being. Maybe one day you'll get tired of 76° and then you still have all these options ?. Clear skies now!

Indeed. Small steps. A long journey starts with the first step, as they say!

I'm interested in deep sky and planetary, and my scopes are f5.5 and f10. Eyepiece choice to deliver against these differing requirements and factors almost certainly means there won't be one EP that is optimum for all. So, I think I'll just see how I get on and take it from there. 

Thanks for all the input and opinions on this topic - really fascinating and has certainly educated me in some factors I had not considered. 

[Saganite]

12 hours ago, Astrokev said:

Really enjoying this thread and the different views. 

Decided to go for Morpheus after playing with a few at the IAS today. So, got the 17.5mm. 

First impressions (out of scope) are great. Can't wait to try it on the sky once the clouds clear. 

Got it at a great price too - IAS discount!

You will not be disappointed. I binoview with a  pair of these, and I don't believe astounding would be too strong a description, for Lunar viewing at least, which is all I have tried thus far.

[JTEC]

John, I quite agree, some of the 100 degree eyepieces - the 13mm Ethos, for example - are astonishingly good in the very areas where orthos etc are traditionally considered to be first choice. If there is any compromise it is small - mercifully, however, I don’t have time right now to get into that debate - how much, in what way, in which scopes, at what focal ratios, etc, etc ... aaaargh!! Not again, please ... ?

I’ve only used the TV offerings, but again would agree that the 100 degree eps are at least as good as or better in key areas than some of the 82 degree options we’ve enjoyed for some time now. The prices, at least of the TV options, are a huge problem though. Changing tack (and afov) somewhat, the Morpheus line does look very interesting and decent value.

John E

[Sagitta]

Don't worry, I do have time, but I don't want to debate it ?.

There's so many variables, I think we understand each other perfectly. I think TV prices are a more of a problem compared to APM. For some of ES's prices, some TV's can be bought secondhand. A lot of TV gets bought and sold again. I wonder sometimes how many sales Televue looses to secondhand TV sales, compared to other brand sales.

[JTEC]

Agreed ??

[John]

I've bought all my TV's apart from 2 on the used market and the 2 bought new were subject to a sale a couple of years back.

I've bought plenty of ES, Maxvision, Meade, Pentax, Baader etc, etc on the used market as well over the years. I'm not really keeping the astro equipment retailers in business I'm afraid

Hope you enjoy your Morpheus Astrokev

 

 

[heliumstar]

Morpheus was a very good choice. Enjoy and clear skies!