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MartinB

By MartinB
in The Astro Lounge

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GazOC

GazOC

Posted
Posted

Perhaps NB couldn't stand the thought of a terrestrial imager taking a scientifically insignificant image of himself for purely aesthetic reasons...

If you check the article, Neil Bone gave Nik, Damien Peach and a couple of others permission to continue imaging. It was just the untalented plebs that need to stop.....;O)

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Psychobilly

Psychobilly

Posted
Posted

Perhaps NB couldn't stand the thought of a terrestrial imager taking a scientifically insignificant image of himself for purely aesthetic reasons...

If you check the article, Neil Bone gave Nik, Damien Peach and a couple of others permission to continue imaging. It was just the untalented plebs that need to stop.....;O)

I have given up imaging since the article was published... :)

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barkis

barkis

Posted
Posted

Astonoshing Images, but also astonishing equipment, and location.

How would it be to have access to those sort of tools. But as the man said, processing of the data is a great balancing skill, and it has to be learned. never add something that has no business being there. Maybe not his exact words, but almost.

And you're right Dave, there is a distinct feeling of elation I get when I see natures beauty portrayed in these images from a time when I did not even exist.

Probably needs TJ. to do the poetic tributes to these feasts to the eyes.

Ron. :)

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thing

thing

Posted
Posted

Ron, even if I had that gear I doubt I could produce stuff like that. They really are art. There's something special about them. I know what it is now that I enjoy about imaging, it's not the science of imaging or the science behind the objects, it's just producing awe inspiring pictures, and there's nothing more awe inspiring than the universe. It feeds the imagination, it makes you think about the smallness of ourselves, it especially makes you think about the stupidity we can create as a species as well as the beauty, and most of all it makes you realise how insignificant we are. I say leave the number crunching to the professional astronomers, I just want to gaze at the stars.

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Jamie

Jamie

Posted
Posted

I don't even think the issue is whether imaging is "scientific" astronomy, its whether people should feel free to pursue whatever aspect of the hobby they choose.

Hmmm...

That's been my take on this from the beginning of this thread Gaz.

I think it very in appropriate for anyone to suggest that what people will inevitably take images of this season is in any way lesser than what they deem the right thing to do, whether you personally think there is a scientific gain or not.

NB is entitled to his opinion the same as the rest of us, i know and understand this. but!

IMHO the hobby "astronomy" is a personal choice that a good proportion of us decide to share, with either imaging or observational reports.

Rubbishing others expected efforts in such a way is just pretentious elitism and really has no place within this community.

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centroid

centroid

Posted
Posted

G'day guys

Wow!!, I've just caught up with this 'thread', and haven't seen the offending article, as AN will be in the huge pile of mail at the Post Office, awaiting my return to the UK.

However, from what has be said here, I've pretty much got the 'picture'.

The last thing this hobby needs or wants, is a 'them and us' demarcation line, and fortunately this is something that I've yet to sense the presence of, on any of the astro forums that I frequent.

I have to wonder what forum (s) this guy visits, that leads him to think the way he does, its certainly not one that I'm aware of.

Neil's comments have certainly offended astro imagers, and caused anger among the amateur astro community. In doing so he has done neither himself, or the magazine any favours.

Amateur astronomy is a progressive subject, and imaging, spectroscopy, and adaptive optics etc, are very much part of that progress. New eyepiece designs and advances in optical glass are also part of this progression, with observers reaping the benefits of these advances.

I recently commented, that being primarily an imager, I had somewhat forgotten the pleasure of visual observation, and have now spent many hours hunting down DSOs with my 15x70 binos, down here in Australia. I've enjoyed every minute of it.

We are all free to enjoy the hobby in whatever way we choose, but at the same time we all have a common interest, amateur astronomy!!. We do not want to be stereotyped as separate entities (imagers, sketchers or observers etc), within the overall umbrella of amateur astronomy.

If Neil's objective is to 'drive' a dividing wedge between the various interests, it WILL fail, as we will not let that happen.

We all make mistakes, but you chose to put your's 'in print' Neil, and your comments were unjustified, unwanted, and clearly not representative of the majority view.

I am sure the 'special dispensation' that you apparently give to Nik Zymanek, Damian Peach and Greg Parker, will cause them much embarassment. Nik and Damian, are masters of their 'art', and Greg's images are excellent too, albeit he doesn't do his own processing. Remember, that these guys also started at the botton of the 'learning curve', where many others currently are. By 'posting' their imaging efforts on the forums, those at all stages of the 'learning curve', receive help and encouragement from those more experienced imagers, who in turn are themselves still striving to improve their skills.

When I return to the UK, in a couple of weeks, I will be reinstating all the gear back into the obsy, and will be imaging M42 (as I do every year!!), along with many other celestial objects, and will be 'posting' these on the forum.

I'll continue to do this, until my fellow forum members, tell me that they have seen enough M42 images etc, then I'll stop. I will most certainly not stop, as a result of one individual's narrow minded view, unfortunately published in a national magazine.

Sorry Mr AN editor, but you made a 'bad call' with this one. :)

Dave

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narrowbandpaul

narrowbandpaul

Posted
Posted

well said dave...

it was a disgraceful article, NB must be very narrowminded, as you say.

I havent met him, and I certainly dont want to.

Imagine giving Nik Damian and Greg special dispensation to continue imaging, they had to start at the bottom, but we will all learn, and become better, then perhaps NB will give us special dispensation to carry on. What a wonderful day that will be. Finally recognised as worthy by the worlds biggest prat.

And what makes NB so special?

I couldnt give a flip if he is in the BAA meteor section or whatever. he is not the worlds best imager, he is not gods gift to astronomy.

yet I suspect he will be at astrofest, hopefully cowering in the corner, trying to stay out of everyones way.

Shouldnt AN print a retraction of that comment, since it is offensive, and just plain wrong!

You may have realised, this article has p****d me off!

rant over

Paul

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Keith Cooper

Keith Cooper

Posted
Posted

Sorry Mr AN editor, but you made a 'bad call' with this one. :)

May I ask in what way is it a bad call? Neil expressed his opinion in his opinion column – it wasn't presented as fact but as an opinion – and you all have the right to agree or disagree with Neil's opinion. That's the nature of debate. You also have the right to reply in the magazine. You certainly don't have to agree with every opinion written in the magazine, and I don't have a problem with that. But I will not censor other people's opinions just because you or I might not agree with them. If it had been presented as a fact in a factual article elsewhere in the magazine, I would have taken a different view, but it wasn't.

I havent met him, and I certainly dont want to.

Imagine giving Nik Damian and Greg special dispensation to continue imaging, they had to start at the bottom, but we will all learn, and become better, then perhaps NB will give us special dispensation to carry on. What a wonderful day that will be. Finally recognised as worthy by the worlds biggest prat.

And what makes NB so special?

I couldnt give a flip if he is in the BAA meteor section or whatever. he is not the worlds best imager, he is not gods gift to astronomy.

yet I suspect he will be at astrofest, hopefully cowering in the corner, trying to stay out of everyones way.

Shouldnt AN print a retraction of that comment, since it is offensive, and just plain wrong!

As I said in my earlier post, I don't have a problem with people criticising Neil's opinion if you don't agree with it, but with all due respect I do object to name-calling. For the record, and you will know this if you have actually read the article, nowhere does Neil say that you should give up imaging if it is what you enjoy. He's just giving his own personal opinion about his feelings on imaging compared to visual work, and as the disclaimer in the magazine every month states, opinions of contributors are not necessarily the opinions of the magazine or the editor. I see no reason to censor Neil's or anyone else's opinion just because it might not be my opinion.

Neil will be at AstroFest and will be more than happy to talk to anyone who wants to discuss his comments. And similarly I will be at Astroblast on 2 November if anyone wants to discuss them with me. So I look forward to seeing some of you at those events. If you can't get to them, then you can always send me a PM or contact me via the magazine. I am disappointed though that someone that works as tirelessly as Neil does for the magazine and the amateur community as a whole is now being presented as the enemy just because he has said something that some of you disagree with. Don't we all say things that other people disagree with from time to time?

And to reiterate my earlier post, Astronomy Now welcomes all kinds of images sent to its gallery, and articles on imaging. Far from being out to drive a wedge between anyone, I want to build links with you and I welcome all feedback and comments on the magazine, and they are all taken onboard. So as I said, feel free to disagree with Neil (and a lot of you have made some great points), but when all is said and done it is just his opinion and if you disagree with it, then don't let it stop you doing what you enjoy.

Kind regards,

Keith

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Pauln

Pauln

Posted
Posted

A well made point Keith. I though it was one of the best AN issues I have ever read.

Often a subject that lacks debate just stagnates, so well done to Neil for having an opinion and sharing it.

I have been a little shocked by those with a different opinion who seem to think that theirs is correct and others are wrong.

I read things every day that I disagree with, that doesn't mean that I am always correct.

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michaelmorris

michaelmorris

Posted
Posted

... I believe his point was to that many people spend so much time getting obsessive about the gear, that they lose sight of the basic appreciation of the night sky, or rather forget how to see it. ...

Guilty as charged! It's the same in photography and hi-fi. Let's admit it, many of us blokes do suffer from SNKS (Shiny New Kit Syndrome). The art it to keep it in balance and to remember is that it's the result not the equipment that is the end goal.

I too am guilty of sometimes spending too much time behind the computer screen and not enough at the eyepiece. On this count I do agree with Neil.

Where I disagree is the notion that what amateurs do has to somehow be useful - It doesn't. We all get out of it what we wish, and it's different for everyone. I do think that many amateurs would get much more out of the hobby if they spent more time understanding what it is they are observing/sketching/imaging, but that's a different issue.

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philipok

philipok

Posted
Posted

also - does anyone get that feeling, at midnight, no sound, when you're on really high mag and the background is all black, you're focused on some distant object, you suddenly lose perspective and get quite freaked out by the cosmos and have to step away from the scope? is it just me? :)

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Reggie

Reggie

Posted
Posted

Neil presented himself as the enemy, he made the comment, we responded in kind. If you want to build links maybe you should discuss the articles your contributors submit with them, whilst not censoring them you could at least have made the guy think about his comment before it was put into print, after all, that is what an editor is for, isn't it?

Neil may not have actually called anyone any names at all but the offense was already there and the implication was that imagers are lesser beings unless they have ascended to the dizzying heights of someone (damien peach etc.) that he didn't want to offend (he obviously thought his comment might upset some people!!), sounds a bit like astronomy eugenics to me.

I have to say that the opinions(facts) here relating to neils comments are quite correct, I don't think this one is actually open to debate, I really don't, It's MY hobby, My telescope, My Camera and ultimately My life, if I want to validate My existence on this rock by imaging then so be it.

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centroid

centroid

Posted
Posted

Keith

I say a 'bad call', because the adverse reaction that you expected (your words) has indeed occurred. Albeit the extent of this reaction has perhaps exceeded your expectations. Never the less, an adverse reaction you clearly expected.

I do not profess to understand the complexities of being a magazine editor, but as a layman, I think that a common sense discussion with the author, prior to publication, and not censorship, was all that was required here.

Astronomy Now, is a quality magazine, that I have enjoyed reading for many years, and not a 'soap box' for delivering denigrating comments towards astro imagers, or any other discipline within the hobby.

Yes, I did say hobby, because for the vast majority of us, that's exactly what it is.

I spent the last 20 years of my working life, in Research & Development, and now in retirement, I no longer have any desire to undertake 'ground breaking' studies, but just to enjoy my astronomy and CCD imaging.

Its always been a pleasure to read AN Keith, please keep it that way.

Regards

Dave

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NickH

NickH

Posted
Posted

Echo Dave's comments...nicely put Dave...

But..some of this thread....I think this is going a bit OTT..

Neil has made some comments, which I guess most of us have taken as a bit annoying (me included), but the proper way to discuss this is (as I think the mods and Keith at AN have already discussed), via AN letters section.

I know for a fact that AN did not wish to cause anyone any offense, and Neil really is a nice bloke..

I think the personal attack type comments should stop (just my opinion), and maybe vent the anguish via the letters column..

The quotes relating to Damian/Nik (again both top blokes) et al, I think, are the most regretful part of this, as it's that which kind of drove a wedge down..which is a real shame as neither of them I suspect wanted to be brought in to this.

We've got some great people on here, great (nay outstanding) imagers and from meeting so many of you at Sir PM's the other week, in person, some of the nicest you could hope to meet..so it's a humble plea....let's not get personal, as I know from experience, that it just descends in to pain.

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admin

admin

Posted
Posted

Not just your opinion Nick! Personal attacks are against our Forum Code of Conduct.

We realise that the article in AN has caused some (quite a lot actually) conflict.

We encourage differing points of view and it is possible to do that without being nasty.

Will all posters please refrain from ANY personal attacks. Any personal attacks from this point on will be removed.

Admin

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