Baader vs Astro modifications.

[Redscouse]

Hi all 

As the title suggests, what is the difference between the two and what is better for AP? 
The camera will never be used for anything other than AP if that makes a difference.

Thanks for looking.
Pete.

[LightBucket]

They are the same thing, Astro modding the camera means removing one of the two filters in front of the camera sensor that blocks the red end of the light spectrum, and increases the Ha response..

The Baader part just means replacing that filter with a Baader clear glass filter, but it is not at all needed, especially if the camera will only be used for AP...

[Redscouse]

Thanks for the response. So what you're saying, looking at the picture below, I can save myself £60 and go for the £399 one and it will work ok?

[MarsG76]

I agree.. the baader glass is not needed...

When I modded my 40D, i removed both of teh pieces of glass at the from, one, the thicker one, looks blue, so it was removed but I replaced the other piece of glass.. it looks clear and protects the sensor..

My Halpha and SII sensitivity is pretty good for a DSLR.

 

[Louis D]

The clear glass filter is only need to reach infinity focus with regular camera lenses due to glass path distance issues.  If this is to be a dedicated astrophotography camera, that isn't an issue because telescopes, unlike camera lenses, can be focused past infinity to compensate for the missing glass filter's focus requirements.

[rigradio]

Hi Pete,

The extra £60 in the 2nd camera is for Baader BCF filter. Your Canon LPF-2 filter will be replaced with this filter.
This filter has UV/IR cut to avoid star bloat if you have 'glass' in your imaging train, i.e. flattener, reducer, lens, or refractor.

But, if you choose the 1st camera (£399) and have glass in your imaging train, you will be okay if you use light pollution filter with UV/IR built in. The best one is IDAS LPS-D1.

So, how bad is the star bloat if you don't use light pollution filter with UV/IR built in? Google this word: "lpf1 sufficient block ir"

Here the video about the star bloat:

 

HTH
Ketut

[Merlin66]

A couple of comments:

The link mentioned refers to IR not UV.....

Shining a high intensity IR LED "searchlight" at the camera filter bears little resemblance to actual user conditions.......

(In the diagram filter#2 is the one removed and Filter#1 -the anti alias/ dust shake filter is usually retained.)

The attached PDF file shows real spectroscopic transmission tests done on the front filter.....

The final IR transmission is not much worse than that found in the  original Canon camera ....................

Canon front filter test.pdf

Edited February 18, 2018 by Merlin66
test results added

[Redscouse]

Thanks all for your replies. Looks like asking the question saved myself £60, remind me I owe you a pint when we meet at an astro party somewhere!

[LightBucket]

1 hour ago, Redscouse said:

Thanks all for your replies. Looks like asking the question saved myself £60, remind me I owe you a pint when we meet at an astro party somewhere!

Yes, the second filter left in the camera has good IR cut, hence why it is left in place, so nothing else is needed, Unkess you have bad Light pollution, then you will need an LP filter, and if you go for the clip in type (or any CLS for that matter) for canon cameras, you only need the standard CLS version and not the CLS CCD as the difference between these two filters is the more expensive one has built in IR cut, which you will not need.

[rigradio]

4 hours ago, Redscouse said:

Thanks all for your replies. Looks like asking the question saved myself £60, remind me I owe you a pint when we meet at an astro party somewhere!

LPF-1:
Front Filter
Dust removal filter
Piezo element filter
IR/UV block filter
H-alpha pass filter
Larger filter
Pinkish looking filter
Anti-alias filter (1)
 

LPF-2:
Rear Filter
Color limiting filter
White Balance filter
IR/UV block filter
H-alpha block filter
Smaller filter
Bluish looking filter
Anti-alias filter (2)

 

I don't like the LPF-1 retained.
Even it blurring the image slightly, I just don't like it.
But, that's just me 

Ketut

 

[LightBucket]

4 minutes ago, rigradio said:

LPF-1:
Front Filter
Dust removal filter
Piezo element filter
IR/UV block filter
H-alpha pass filter
Larger filter
Pinkish looking filter
Anti-alias filter (1)
 

LPF-2:
Rear Filter
Color limiting filter
White Balance filter
IR/UV block filter
H-alpha block filter
Smaller filter
Bluish looking filter
Anti-alias filter (2)

 

I don't like the LPF-1 retained.
Even it blurring the image slightly, I just don't like it.
But, that's just me 

Ketut

 

It doesnt blur the image, persay, the reason for a slightly out of focus image after the mod is only with autofocus using a lens, as this will be slightly out due to a piece of glass being removed from the imaging train, but with a telescope not at all an issue...

[rigradio]

1 hour ago, LightBucket said:

It doesnt blur the image, persay, the reason for a slightly out of focus image after the mod is only with autofocus using a lens, as this will be slightly out due to a piece of glass being removed from the imaging train, but with a telescope not at all an issue...

I'm confused 

 

[Redscouse]

3 minutes ago, rigradio said:

I'm confused 

You and me both my friend! 

13 hours ago, Louis D said:

The clear glass filter is only need to reach infinity focus with regular camera lenses due to glass path distance issues.  If this is to be a dedicated astrophotography camera, that isn't an issue because telescopes, unlike camera lenses, can be focused past infinity to compensate for the missing glass filter's focus requirements.

This makes perfect sense to my confused brain.

[SilverAstro]

15 hours ago, Redscouse said:

Thanks for the response. So what you're saying, looking at the picture below, I can save myself £60 and go for the £399 one and it will work ok?

Me muchly confussled as well ! Until this topic I thought I knew what I wanted, now I am not so sure, thanks y'all !

Ref the above pic, in that Juan is saying "ASTRO modified for astronomical use" on the top one, and on the lower he is saying "BAADER modified for astronomical use".

In his other ads for other models he says "BAADER modified for astronomical use and daylight photography   " which made me think that the Baader mod used a colour correction glass 'filter' to thus not need a custom white balance -but otherwise not needed for your astro only requirement-

 

Edited February 18, 2018 by SilverAstro

[Redscouse]

2 minutes ago, SilverAstro said:

Ref the above pic, in that Juan is saying "ASTRO modified for astronomical use" on the top one, and on the lower he is saying "BAADER modified for astronomical use".

Yeah, the only difference to the entire texts are the word 'astro' substituted for 'baader'.
To be honest, I've read this thread numerous times and the only thing I know for certain is I've saved £60  

[LightBucket]

1 minute ago, Redscouse said:

Yeah, the only difference to the entire texts are the word 'astro' substituted for 'baader'.
To be honest, I've read this thread numerous times and the only thing I know for certain is I've saved £60  

Yes you can save that £60...

as for the rest, the normal Astro mod as I call it, which you will be getting with the camera you link to, will not have any blurring and can be used with Autofocus with a lens, because the guy at cheapasteophotography, Juan, shims the sensor to counteract the removal of the filter to regain auto focus, he does this as part of the filter removal mod on the cameras before he sells them.

Now if you were to do the mod yourself you would not do that, hence having a blurry image when using autofocus after the camera Astro mod, but only with a camera lens, not using a telescope...

HTH

[SilverAstro]

11 minutes ago, Redscouse said:

Yeah, the only difference to the entire texts are the word 'astro' substituted for 'baader'.
To be honest, I've read this thread numerous times and the only thing I know for certain is I've saved £60  

Thanks for the confirmation, yes, that was my dilemma

I have been up and down his pages to make sure it was not my eyes (or dyslexica!) all very odd. Could there be two Baader mods / filters, cos someone posted earlier about it being a clear glass whereas I thought it (singular?) was for daylight colour balance,   with a bit of residual/extra IR cut as well I wonder?  If that latter were the case then for astro only use we would be better off without it ??

my head hurts !

 

Edited February 18, 2018 by SilverAstro

[rigradio]

19 minutes ago, Redscouse said:

You and me both my friend! 

This makes perfect sense to my confused brain.

Mine is Canon 60D.
Both LPF1 & LPF2 were removed (full spectrum), and replaced with Astrodon AD40 clear glass filter to protect the sensor from dust.
The Astrodon AD40 has the same thickness vs LPF1+LPF2. So, no need to shift the sensor position to regain the AF lens.
Filters:
- Astronomik Ha 12nm for astrophotography
- Astronomik UV/IR clip in for astrophotography & normal photography (CWB required)
- IDAS LPS D1 for astrophotography
- Kolari vision 590nm & Kenko R1 for IR photography

[Redscouse]

The camera will only be used for AP. I have an unmodded 1300D that will be left intact for daytime use. 

3 minutes ago, LightBucket said:

Now if you were to do the mod yourself 

Is it easy? 

[LightBucket]

2 minutes ago, Redscouse said:

The camera will only be used for AP. I have an unmodded 1300D that will be left intact for daytime use. 

Is it easy? 

I think so, see @JohnSadlerAstro he has recently done the mod, and found it quite straight forward, he has made a thread on it.. 

[SilverAstro]

He nearly 'did for'  one of his eyes so you know what to wear !

Some call it luck, some call it skill ! The number of fails I read about I think you need to be prepared to face the £loss of bricking your camera if it all goes horribly wrong.

Edited February 18, 2018 by SilverAstro

[david_taurus83]

I bought a 600D off Juan with the Baader filter purely because I use the camera also during the daytime when out with the kids. Works great under daylight, not so great under artificial (nighttime) light as you start to get the red hue in your images. Also, works great on the telescope. Juan himself advised me, if it's only to be used for Astrophotography then the Baader filter is not worth the extra expense, in his opinion. ?

[SilverAstro]

Juan says "Camera modification: £55", so I'd be inclined to spend that £60 you just saved on the Baader to pay a man to copper bottom it.  ?

[Redscouse]

11 minutes ago, LightBucket said:

I think so, see @JohnSadlerAstro he has recently done the mod, and found it quite straight forward, he has made a thread on it.. 

Just had a read of that thread and bookmarked it in case of future urge to tinker. 
However, the cost of the camera in the shop compared to the one from Juan's website is not a great saving when taking into account the 5.5 hours (or more) it will take me to do the mod myself.
Best left to the experts I think.  

[Redscouse]

4 minutes ago, SilverAstro said:

pay a man to copper bottom it.  ?

What on earth does that mean?