Brandon vs Televue (8mm)

[jabeoo1]

Brandon/Vernonscope eyepiece threads appear to get the sparks flying between our fellow Cloudy Nights members.  Over this side of the Atlantic Brandon's seem scarcely used, and even when uttered into the odd SGL thread any conclusions fizzle out into silence, a stark contrast to the eternal chanting of "green and black! green and black!".  I am intrigued to find out for myself how they perform next to the more ubiquitous Televue Plossl.  

Both EP's consist of 4 elements in 2 groups symmetrical in design, but different in other respects.  Brandons are not multi coated but are fully coated and as seen in the 3rd image the Brandon gives off a lilac/purple/blue whilst the Televue show as green.  This coating apparently reduces low angle light scatter and therefore interfere less with low contrast details whereas multi coatings are supposed to increase low angle light scatter.   The field stop on the 8mm Brandon is 0.5mm less than the 8mm TV and the FOV is 7 degrees less in the Brandon (43 Degrees compared with 50).  The quoted eye relief is supposed to be slightly better in the Brandon (8mm over the 6mm). 

Brandons are supposed to thrive in focal ratios of f/7 and slower, but occasional reports are positive in scopes down to f/6.  A Zeiss Telementor would no doubt reveal the strengths of this EP design with obvious results however I don't have one to test it in.  I have one choice and thats in my f/7.4 FC-100 so we are just inside the lower end of desirable.  It will be interesting to see how they compare on-axis and off axis. 

An early morning start tomorrow to make use of the freezing clear conditions should be lots of fun at least

Target: Jupiter.

(Brandon Left / TV Right)

(Brandon Left / TV Right)

[Dave In Vermont]

Thank you for this. I've never used a Brandon, but would like to if they came my way.

Someday...

Dave

[mikeDnight]

[John]

As Mike implies above, I'll be awaiting your views on these with great interest.

I've read lots of threads on the CN forum on Brandons and the overwhelming impression that I get is that they are like Marmite, you either love them or the opposite.

Virtually nothing posted on here on Brandons as you say so either they are not commonly used in the UK / EU or their owners keep their secrets !

How does the cost of a Tele Vue 8mm plossl compare with an 8mm Brandon by the way ?

 

[alan potts]

I for one looked out for a secondhand one for 3 years and never saw one, I reached the conclusion that they just were not really available over this side of the pond, if they are no one seems to want to part with them or not many were ever sold. I felt the same way about the Doctor 12.5mm, I believe it was, another one you rarely see here that I would have liked to buy. The other one that is about as rare as a candyfloss door knocker is the 5mm Pentax XO and I still look for this even though maybe now a bit half heartedly.

Guess I will just have to put up with my collection of Televues.

Alan

[YKSE]

Yes, a very interesting eyepiece, rarely seen on this side of pond. Looking forward to your impression

[Timebandit]

 

Yep . Do not hear much about the Brandon especially on SGL. The televues plossl is a great eyepiece and so it will be interesting test between the two. I personally think it will be a close race, but the tv may have a edge , possible better coatings?

I did read something a few years ago. Where eyepieces such as ZAO , TMB supermono, Pentax SMC , televues radian , Brandon , Baader Genuine Ortho were tested. If I remember correctly the ZAO won, no surprise here. And if I remember correctly the Brandon , BGO came out rather favourably ahead of the televues radian. So will be interesting a TV plossl against a  Brandon. Maybe the tv plossl can take revenge over its big brothers loss on this particular test. Will get the popcorn out and wait the results? 

[John]

When I was comparing a TMB Supermono 5mm against a University Optics HD ortho 5mm I found them so close that only the best seeing nights showed any differences btween them with the TMB just making the subtlest planetary detail available that little bit easier. If I only happened to use the eyepieces on so-so nights then I'd have concluded that there was no difference between them. You almost have to do a blink type comparison on two really good eyepieces to see any differences

Having a turret would be the best way I guess - you can quickly switch between them then.

The last comparison I read between the Brandon and the TV plossl had the TV ahead on planets most of the time but read enough reports and you will find the situation reversed and then reversed again. I suspect they will be much more similar than different.

The Brandon will "win" on exclusivity though even if the TV "wins" on performance and price

[jabeoo1]

3 hours ago, John said:

How does the cost of a Tele Vue 8mm plossl compare with an 8mm Brandon by the way ?

Yep this is where the Televue goes ahead by 1 point before either gets looked through. 

Current new prices:  TV=£91 Plus P&P (Used £60 inc P&P)

                              Brandon £219 Plus P&P  (Rare secondhand here but £100-150 ish or $100-120 then taxes as in my case). 

  

[jabeoo1]

1 hour ago, John said:

When I was comparing a TMB Supermono 5mm against a University Optics HD ortho 5mm I found them so close that only the best seeing nights showed any differences btween them

It may well come down to this.  This is why I think that I will have to spend a long time with them both, just making sure the other factors are allowed to play out. Testing and comparing can't be done quickly as the differences can be so subtle.  There will probably be no clear winner.  

1 hour ago, John said:

Having a turret would be the best way I guess - you can quickly switch between them then.

The last comparison I read between the Brandon and the TV plossl had the TV ahead on planets most of the time but read enough reports and you will find the situation reversed and then reversed again. I suspect they will be much more similar than different.

The Brandon will "win" on exclusivity though even if the TV "wins" on performance and price

There will be no comparison to the tortoise and the hare fable, its rather like a race between 2 tortoises instead. I don't have a turret so its going to be challenging!

 

1 hour ago, John said:

The Brandon will "win" on exclusivity though even if the TV "wins" on performance and price

I need to shake this concept out of my head (but the issue is I can feel in my hand which is which), I will at some point get some friends that know nothing about eyepieces and swap them between, asking them to tell me which view they prefer.  

[jabeoo1]

After ONLY 20 mins on the moon a few conclusions could be drawn, especially on how they felt in use:

I can't see the field stop in the Brandon when on axis but moving my head a tiny bit it allows it in..... easily. (EDIT Or simply  remove or fold down the rubber eye-guard to get in closer to reveal the field stop  )  Saying that the performance does drops off near the field stop anyway (remember we are at f/7.4 so no surprises here).  The TV is sharper to the field stop and I can see it without moving my head.  In this respect you have to give the TV a thumbs up.  The Brandon for me is as comfortable to use as the TV, just a little different.  Even with its smaller TFOV and on a manual mount I can clock up some long hours with little fatigue and really get into using it critically. 

On the views I tentatively write:

The sharpness of both EP's are very hard to separate into a 1st or 2nd, I would say they match one another which is good as the TV is razor sharp and this is a relief. 

I scrutinised the Lunar Maria to try and seek low contrast variation on these vast surfaces and both EP's showed nice variation.  I liked the contrast of these features the Brandon delivered and if splitting hairs it may have a little edge but not much on this occasion.  

 

 

Next stop Jupiter

[John]

I was going to ask what scopes the eyepieces would be tested in but you have mentioned one at least above.

If the Brandon is a bit soft around the edge at F/7.4 it might not be fair to stick it in an F/5 ?

Still I'm jumping to unfair conclusions here so I'll be patient and wait for more reports from your good self

 

 

[jabeoo1]

39 minutes ago, John said:

I was going to ask what scopes the eyepieces would be tested in but you have mentioned one at least above.

If the Brandon is a bit soft around the edge at F/7.4 it might not be fair to stick it in an F/5 ?

John, they were made with at least f/7-f/15 and up & up in mind.  Don't even bother, there would be no point using them in a f/5.  I am happy to bring the EP along to hopefully the next BAS viewing session for you to look through.  I met you before at a previous meeting i think, is it your dob you were considering it in?  It should perform very well in a catadioptric or a little Maksutov. 

[John]

17 minutes ago, jabeoo1 said:

John, they were made with at least f/7-f/15 and up & up in mind.  Don't even bother, there would be no point using them in a f/5.  I am happy to bring the EP along to hopefully the next BAS viewing session for you to look through.  I met you before at a previous meeting i think, is it your dob you were considering it in?  It should perform very well in a catadioptric or a little Maksutov. 

I'd love to have a look through a Brandon with any of my scopes

I didn't realise that you were a fellow BAS member. Hope to see you again sometime soon

[YKSE]

2 hours ago, jabeoo1 said:

After ONLY 20 mins on the moon a few conclusions could be drawn, especially on how they felt in use:

I can't see the field stop in the Brandon when on axis but moving my head a tiny bit it allows it in..... easily.  Saying that the performance does drops off near the field stop anyway (remember we are at f/7.4 so no surprises here).  The TV is sharper to the field stop and I can see it without moving my head.  In this respect you have to give the TV a thumbs up.  The Brandon for me is as comfortable to use as the TV, just a little different.  Even with its smaller TFOV and on a manual mount I can clock up some long hours with little fatigue and really get into using it critically. 

On the views I tentatively write:

The sharpness of both EP's are very hard to separate into a 1st or 2nd, I would say they match one another which is good as the TV is razor sharp and this is a relief. 

I scrutinised the Lunar Maria to try and seek low contrast variation on these vast surfaces and both EP's showed nice variation.  I liked the contrast of these features the Brandon delivered and if splitting hairs it may have a little edge but not much on this occasion.  

 

 

Next stop Jupiter

Shorter useful ER in Brandon is a surprise,is the eye lens more recessed than 8mm TV plossl?

Sharper edge in is more like expected, that's what Al's plossl patent about.

If Brandon ever can beat TV plossl performance wise, it'll be on-axis.

[jabeoo1]

8 hours ago, YKSE said:

Shorter useful ER in Brandon is a surprise,is the eye lens more recessed than 8mm TV plossl?

 

YKSE you are right, the lens is more recessed, mainly because of the rubber eye guard than anything.  I noticed that folding it down allowed the field stop back in with normal eye positioning.   I guess thats why they do the flat top version too.  

 

8 hours ago, YKSE said:

If Brandon ever can beat TV plossl performance wise, it'll be on-axis.

True, its unfair to even compare them off-axis.  I knew to expect deterioration off axis especially whilst testing at f/7.4.  

[Moonshane]

Interesting eyepieces. If the differences are only seen on axis, at f7 or slower and with soft edges, might be worth adding a cheap plossl to the mix?

[jabeoo1]

On Jupiter:

On axis I could not truthfully split them.  There were very pleasing views in both EP's, clearly defining the North and South Equatorial Belts, North and South Temperate belts, and zones in between.  There was nice graduated shading across the polar regions, more apparent in the North polar region.  I did think fleetingly this polar shading was more graduated and pleasing in the Brandon but if so it was difficult to call.  Great Red Spot was tucked just around the Limb unfortunately.  8mm in the FC-100 gives x92 magnification, therefore it would have been nice to have used a good Barlow and increase the magnification.  Seeing how each eyepiece faired with a scaled up image would have helped with the test.  

 

Future plans for more observation time @ higher magnification & ideally coupled with a Zeiss Baader Prism Diagonal. 

To try the 2" 48mm Brandon with a good 2" diagonal.  

[Dave In Vermont]

Serendipity strikes! Take a look here:

http://agenaastro.com/eyepieces/shopby/brandon.html

I love it when this happens!

Dave

 

 

[John]

I see that in the USA they cost $235 wheras the Fujiyama orthos cost $100. Even with a slightly smaller FoV I'd have thought the Fuji ortho a better buy and most an equal performer on axis and probably a wee bit better towards the edges.

Perhaps the Brandons target market is patriotic long refractor owners ?

Interesting review here from Joe Bergeron:

http://joebergeron.com/brandons.htm

[Roy Challen]

Didn't Chris Lord do a comparison between Brandons, Tele Vue plossls and some GSO plossls? IIRC the outcome was very favourable toward the plossls in all but the very best seeing conditions.

[jabeoo1]

22 minutes ago, John said:

Interesting review here from Joe Bergeron:

http://joebergeron.com/brandons.htm

Having just used one I think all of this review is reminiscent.  Even with only a few hours chalked up its a very honest & accurate account. 

24 minutes ago, John said:

I see that in the USA they cost $235 wheras the Fujiyama orthos cost $100. Even with a slightly smaller FoV I'd have thought the Fuji ortho a better buy and most an equal performer on axis and probably a wee bit better towards the edges.

I think you may be right here.  The 7mm Fuji offers a quoted 6mm eye relief, which if you are an 8mm Plossl user is no bother.  The useful TFOV is probably = to the Brandon in scopes under f/8.

24 minutes ago, John said:

Perhaps the Brandons target market is patriotic long refractor owners ?

Explains why here in the UK they are seldom used!  

[YKSE]

1 hour ago, Roy Challen said:

Didn't Chris Lord do a comparison between Brandons, Tele Vue plossls and some GSO plossls? IIRC the outcome was very favourable toward the plossls in all but the very best seeing conditions.

Yepp, the summary table of his test worth some study if we do test ourselves

The introdcution in the article gives some good historical accounts about orthos and plossls too

http://www.brayebrookobservatory.org/BrayObsWebSite/HOMEPAGE/PageMill_Resources/Comparison test of TVPlossl vs Brandon.pdf

[Dave In Vermont]

"Patriotic refractor owners??" That's a new one on me! Besides - us science-people have been ex-communicated from the flag-wavers. Didn't you know we made-up "Global Warming" as part of a plot with the Chinese to extort money for our "secret-cabal?"

Being a scientist is treason! Have a Nice Day!

Dave

 

[mikeDnight]

6 hours ago, jabeoo1 said:

On Jupiter:

On axis I could not truthfully split them.  There were very pleasing views in both EP's, clearly defining the North and South Equatorial Belts, North and South Temperate belts, and zones in between.  There was nice graduated shading across the polar regions, more apparent in the North polar region.  I did think fleetingly this polar shading was more graduated and pleasing in the Brandon but if so it was difficult to call.  Great Red Spot was tucked just around the Limb unfortunately.  8mm in the FC-100 gives x92 magnification, therefore it would have been nice to have used a good Barlow and increase the magnification.  Seeing how each eyepiece faired with a scaled up image would have helped with the test.  

 

Future plans for more observation time @ higher magnification & ideally coupled with a Zeiss Baader Prism Diagonal. 

To try the 2" 48mm Brandon with a good 2" diagonal.  

I've used super abbe orthos for quite a few years and find them excellent on planetary. However I only use them in conjunction with a Barlow, as without it the edge distortion is quite prominent at F7.4. When I bought a full set of new Fujiyamas they were simply unusable with or without a Barlow, so i sent them back and was refunded. I put it down to a faulty batch, but its put me off buying them again! The super abbe's, with the exception of width of field, are every bit as good as Pentax XW's as far as planetary definition and contrast are concerned when used with a Barlow. 

I wanted to buy a set of Brandons but Harrison Telescopes had stopped selling them. Story of my life! 

Years ago i had a set of TMB Super monocentric eyepieces which I really liked, but they were knocked into next week by Astrophysics Super Planetaries. Having said that, the Burgess TMB Planetary eyepieces were every bit as good as the Mono's and far more comfortable to use. They were as cheap as chips too! Like a fool I sold them!

I'd still like a set of Brandons with Dakin Barlow, but might have to wait until someone takes pity on me and buys me a set! 

Mike