Which camera for DSO's?

[MARS1960]

Hi all,

I have made a life changing decision to scrap the idea of buying a modded 700D and instead i'm going to buy my first real astro camera.

My budget will be around £600, could stretch that a bit, i will be starting on the bottom rung so no mono with filters just yet. 

I'm interested in a cooled CCD/CMOS colour camera with or without capture software but would also like simple capture software recommendations for dummies.

My interest is mainly DSO imaging but if it will capture the odd planet now again that would be a bonus.

I have seen a QHY8 in the classifieds but unsure if this has been sold now.

I would like the camera to be compatible with my AT72ED and my SW100ED, the 6" RCT is probably going to be sold but if it doesn't sell i will use it for planetary/lunar/solar imaging occasionally.

Despite lots of research prior to starting this hobby, including reading Steve's book i have still made purchases that proved to be shall we say, not the best.

Thanks.

[gnomus]

Getting a CCD is a big committment.  In your earlier thread (when you were suggesting you might give up) you expressed some antipathy about having to use a laptop in the field.  A CCD will mean using a computer in the field.  It will also need its own power supply (which is something else to trip over in the dark).  

Before I decided to get a CCD I persisted with my DSLR.  I got hold of a program called APT (which is inexpensive), and I made sure I understood about sequences, dithering and so on.  Only after I'd being doing it for a bit did I decide what I liked imaging and then what equipment I needed to get to do this.  Nevertheless, along the way, I made multiple mistakes in equipment purchases.  

I see you posted an image of the Heart nebula.  Many folks who shoot this (I haven't tried it yet) use narrowband filters.  That means a mono rather than a colour CCD, it means a wheel, and it means filters (expensive filters).  So if the Heart and objects like it are your thing, then an OSC CCD may not be the way to go.  

In your position, I'd probably persist with the DSLR for a bit longer - introduce a computer into your working and see what benefits and what disadvantages that can bring.  I'd probably try for some relatively easy targets (though nothing is easy in this game) to increae the chances of a successful night.

[MARS1960]

You are probably right gnomus, i'm just being my usual impulsive self again.

I did pretty much start with a zwo asi120mc-s and sharpcap and phd but gave it up as a bad job and decided to go with a dslr and mgen stand alone guider.

Maybe i'll hang on till next summer and see what i can achieve over the next 8-9 months.

I'm 3hrs into NGC7023 right now using the advice i got in my disheartened thread, we'll see how that comes out tomorrow.

[gnomus]

You're dong better than me then - 40 mins only on Pacman - dodging cloud ....  Snarl, grrrrrr

Iris is a better choice.  Also think about some clusters - open and globular - you wont need 20 hours of data for those.  M33 is starting to come into play too.  

Good luck

Steve

[MARS1960]

30 minutes ago, gnomus said:

You're dong better than me then - 40 mins only on Pacman - dodging cloud ....  Snarl, grrrrrr

Iris is a better choice.  Also think about some clusters - open and globular - you wont need 20 hours of data for those.  M33 is starting to come into play too.  

Good luck

Steve

Cheers Steve.

Just aborted iris, keep losing guide star, too much dew on guidescope, need heater.

Popped over to M31 using tracking only at 60secs, hoping for 180 subs, clear skies but seeing is pretty awful.

Should be better for you tomorrow.

Mark.

[gnomus]

Yes.  I had to give up too.  

[ollypenrice]

Mono and filters do not have to be over budget. A mono CCD like the old but worthy Atik 16HR, a manual wheel and a set of basic HaLRGB filters might come up for around £600. I would be very wary of the budget CCD brands second hand, though. Atik are well made and help is at hand. An electric wheel is certainly not a necessity.

I believe mono to be more productive for four key reasons. It is faster because luminance captures 3 to 4 times as much light as is passed by colour filters. Ha exploits moonlit clear nights. Colour can be binned for greater efficiency. Most OSC cameras shoot double green, which is a waste in astrophotography. 

Capture is marginally more complex with mono but both Sara and I have expressed the view that OSC is tricky to post process compared with mono.

As DSLRs improve I think the case for OSC CCD weakens somewhat.

Olly

[carastro]

Totally agree with Olly.  

I switched from DSLR to mono CCD a few years back and have never regretted it.  Whilst using filters does sound a bit daunting at first, if I can do it then you can do it.  OK it took me a little while to learn how to combine the filters, but Rome wasn't built in a day.  

When I first bought the CCD I did consecutive nights of the same target with DSLR one night and CCD the following night and compared data, what i saw blew me away with regards to how much more detail can be shown with a mono CCD camera.  A OSC would be the same as a DSLR - the only advantage being is that it is cooled.

I also started with a manual filter wheel which really keeps the price down, though I wouldn't attempt to do too many filters in one night as it gets tedious having to change the filter all the time.  

With CCD you can bin the colour, which means you can capture the same data twice as fast (though post-processing gets a bit more tricky here).

I also bought myself a OSC CCD camera thinking I could take colour on one camera and Mono on the other and speed up capture.  I found the OSC far more difficult to use as you couldn't see a star to focus on, can't see the target (you can on a CCD if you adjust the settings), and stacking & processing I never really got to grips with, and in the end I re-sold it and stayed with Mono.

Last but not least - with a mono CCD camera you can image in Narrowband with the correct filters and this gives access to data that would not show very well on a OSC/DSLR (if at all).  Narrowband can also be done in LP locations or when the Moon is up, so long as you are not pointing too close to the Moon.  

As stated above you will need a laptop in the field and power, but it makes imaging a whole lot easier with a laptop.

Mono CCD cameras come up for sale 2nd hand and if you buy from some-one you know or is well known on a forum you should be safe.  

HTH

Carole 

 

[Astrosurf]

If you're still feeling unsure of the AP malarkey, I would go with the modded 700D. Maybe try for second hand from a reputable seller and then, if you resell, you might not lose much in cost. DSLRs are great and I found mine indispensable for giving me confidence. I'm dyspraxic so need lots of time to learn. I only moved to CCD when I felt confident enough, and that's more software, more cables, more battery power and more to concentrate on. A CCD is something to think about when you feel much less unsure.

Good luck!

EDIT: the ZWO 120 cams are used mainly for planets and the Moon. Someone will disagree with me now!

Alexxx

[MARS1960]

I think i will stick with DSLR till early next year, that will be a full 12 months between my first and last images.

I will see just how much i have progressed using my first and last M42 images.

In the meantime i will research as much as i can about using a mono CCD and filter wheel.

Thank you to everyone who has helped.

[Astrosurf]

Always glad to help. Please keep us informed. Good luck!

[Adam J]

My problem with mono CCD's is that it can become something of a run away cost. Filters / Filter wheels etc. For a DSLR sized sensor you are looking at the better part of 2.5k.  

My approach to this problem has been a staged program of improvements to my DSLR. 

Stage 1: Buy a really cheap camera (1000D / 450D) modify it myself not really caring if I break it due to low cost. This was a success and I have taken pictures with this for a while using a CLS filter. (75 - pounds)

Stage 2: I bought a guiding kit second hand and am started getting 5 / 10 min subs. This was a success and greatly improved my images. (~200 pounds)

Stage 3: I noticed that the pictures where getting more and more noisy as the weather got warmer into summer. So I built myself a DSLR cool box to reduce the temperature down from mid 20's to below zero - again a massive improvement in image quality. (~100 pounds)

Stage 4: As I was no longer noise limited in longer exposures (I was light pollution limited). I decided to try H-alpha narrow band with my DSLR (2-inch Baader 7nm). This was a real eye opener and a huge improvement again. So good that I got the OIII filter also. (~300 - pounds) 

YES YOU CAN USE NARROW BAND FILTERS WITH A DSLR SO LONG AS ITS COOLED! or in cold conditions. 

Stage 5: I just bought a semi broken 1000D off ebay and am about to attempt a mono conversion on it. So I can get even more out of my narrow band filters. I have not yet done this. But if it works ill get a SII to complete my filter set. (40 - pounds for the camera)

 

The point is that a DSLR is a platform that you can build on if you can find the right end of a screw driver.

However, I would never have dared to do all those mods to a 700D through fear of breaking it. 

I am not exactly recommending that you go off and make cool boxes and do mono modifications, that sort of thing is not for everyone. What I am 100% suggesting is that you have a go at the IR filter mod yourself on a cheaper second hand camera like a 450D. You can get them on ebay for around 100-pounds. There are lots of detailed tutorials on you tube showing you how its done and its actually very very easy to do, all you really need is a screwdriver and a tooth pick. You will be shocked at how much of an improvement the mod makes. You will also have 350 pounds or more to put towards a mono CCD, further down the line if you decided to stick with it.  Ultimately though a 700D and a 450D both have the same limitation when un-cooled. 

I would not bother with a Color CCD....better to jump straight from DSLR to Mono CCD when you can afford it and know you are going to stick with it. I would hate for you to spend allot of money only to give up on the hobby. 

 

[MARS1960]

Thanks Adam.

I bought the 60D because i wanted the vari angle screen, i did have a 60Da but sold it.

My CGEM  handles 5min subs just on tracking alone and my Lacerta Mgen easily copes with 20min subs, but as you say noise is an issue.

I have recently purchased Carboni's astro tools PS plugin and Gradient X terminator both are very good.

Do you find you get any flexure with the added weight of your DIY cool box?

Good luck with the MOD, something i may even try myself with a cheap canon off ebay.

[Adam J]

1 hour ago, MARS1960 said:

Thanks Adam.

I bought the 60D because i wanted the vari angle screen, i did have a 60Da but sold it.

My CGEM  handles 5min subs just on tracking alone and my Lacerta Mgen easily copes with 20min subs, but as you say noise is an issue.

I have recently purchased Carboni's astro tools PS plugin and Gradient X terminator both are very good.

Do you find you get any flexure with the added weight of your DIY cool box?

Good luck with the MOD, something i may even try myself with a cheap canon off ebay.

No flex, not the way I did it. Only weighs a little over 1kg.

[Uplooker]

No need to add the expense of wheel and filters when starting, just do mono images. Has the added bonus of less "stuff" to process ?

[MARS1960]

12 minutes ago, Uplooker said:

No need to add the expense of wheel and filters when starting, just do mono images. Has the added bonus of less "stuff" to process ?

True but i'm a colourful chappy .

[ollypenrice]

1 hour ago, Uplooker said:

No need to add the expense of wheel and filters when starting, just do mono images. Has the added bonus of less "stuff" to process ?

But for many of us the processing is the whole point! You have the data. Now revel in it, relish it, get to explore it, discover its intimate secrets...

Olly

[MARS1960]

I'm being impulsive again (atik 320e mono on ABS) £490, someone please tell me "no it's not what you need" :).

[Adam J]

Would depend on exactly what you want to take an image of really. Its quite a small sensor. 

[ollypenrice]

It's a tiny sensor with tiny pixels. Is that what you want? If you can guide it and your seeing will support it then it will allow you to image in relatively high resolution with a relatively short focal length. I have one which I lend to guests and it's in use this week. It is basically the equivalent of using a larger pixel, larger chip camera in a longer focal length scope for small targets. You just need to look at the numbers - chip and pixel size - and that tells the story. The camera itself is excellent, no worries on that score.

Olly

[MARS1960]

15 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

It's a tiny sensor with tiny pixels. Is that what you want? If you can guide it and your seeing will support it then it will allow you to image in relatively high resolution with a relatively short focal length. I have one which I lend to guests and it's in use this week. It is basically the equivalent of using a larger pixel, larger chip camera in a longer focal length scope for small targets. You just need to look at the numbers - chip and pixel size - and that tells the story. The camera itself is excellent, no worries on that score.

Olly

Thanks olly, more to learn. I'm looking for something suitable to use on my ED100 for small targets. I will likely keep the DSLR for larger objects with my AT72ED.

[spillage]

6 hours ago, MARS1960 said:

I think i will stick with DSLR till early next year, that will be a full 12 months between my first and last images.

I will see just how much i have progressed using my first and last M42 images.

In the meantime i will research as much as i can about using a mono CCD and filter wheel.

Thank you to everyone who has helped.

Remeber posting this??

 

Stop looking at buying stuff and spend your clear nights with your dslr and cloudy night researching.....Just jealous I can not afford to buy swanky kit...  

[MARS1960]

9 minutes ago, spillage said:

Remeber posting this??

 

Stop looking at buying stuff and spend your clear nights with your dslr and cloudy night researching.....Just jealous I can not afford to buy swanky kit...  

I know you are right, i will try a little self restraint .

[spillage]

Astrophotography is such a dirty habit. In a good way though.  But I am constantly looking a what gear I could buy to improve things. I think you need to stop yourself sometimes and just say NO!!!!

I will continue to keep a look out for that bargain purchase but have resided in the fact the yes that bit of kit that costs hundreds would be great but lets get some experience under my belt first. Maybe in the future when I can afford great kit at least I will be in a position to take full advantage of it.

By the way do you know anyone selling a cheap neq6 that can take the weight of that guide scope I'm looking to buy?...(For god sake see what I mean..just slap me).

[ollypenrice]

32 minutes ago, MARS1960 said:

I know you are right, i will try a little self restraint .

If I were to list my top hundred failures in life I would blame all of them on self restraint...

Olly