SKY-WATCHER SKYLINER-200P or BRESSER MESSIER DOBSONIAN 8-INCH

[Mattham]

Hello everyone

After my own 'newbie' thread and reading much on the forum and elsewhere, I managed to get over to Tring Astronomy Centre last weekend.

I went in with the intention of firming up my choice of the Sky Watcher 200P but was also pointed to the Bresser, which I think is fairly new to the market and I can't find too much about....links to them are:

http://www.tringastro.co.uk/sky-watcher-skyliner-200p-dobsonian-telescope-454-p.asp

http://www.tringastro.co.uk/bresser-messier-dobsonian-8-inch-9890-p.asp

From what I can figure out, the Bresser is possibly the 'better' unit in that I really rather liked the mount and the way it worked and its ability to provide an upgrade path to an eq mount at some point as I do retain an interest in AP, and the focusser really 'felt' a lot better to use than the Sky Watcher, just good and solid with the right weight to it.

However, its £55 more expensive than the Sky Watcher.....as a newbie would the fact that the Sky Watcher has 2 eye pieces rather than the 1 of the Bresser and the finder scope on the SW rather than the LED finder on the Bresser mean that I'd just end up spending more money if I went for the Bresser?  Is the SW a better package all in?  Jane at Tring recommended the Bresser over the SW, I wanted to do some research but haven't really got anywhere, before I go back and talk to them again and place an order.....

Any thoughts and opinions are most welcome.....please!

Thanks all,

Matt

[Peter Drew]

I have a Shywatcher Skyliner 8" and the similar Orion XT8, this is the first time I've seen the Bresser 8". I wouldn't expect there to be much difference in performance but the Bresser does seem to have some design advantages, the value of these will depend on your plans for the future use, ultimately they may be beneficial from a resale point of view. The eyepieces in each case are entry level so an extra eyepiece is no big deal. I prefer an optical finder over a red dot, the SW unit is excellent, but many users differ. I'm sure the Bresser is good value.  

[Ricochet]

When I was choosing a scope I had to make almost the same choice, except I also had the 10" Skywatcher in the mix. The difference in quality was enough  to make me chose the Bresser.

Bresser Pros:

• Much better focuser
• Smoother alt/az movements
• Secondary mirror edges blacked
• 6 point vs 3 point primary mirror cell
• Primary mirror collimation via knobs not screws (I think the Skyliners still come with screws?)
• Balance can be adjusted by moving OTA up/down tube rings

Now it's not all plain sailing with the Bresser. Firstly, if you want to add a magnifying finder, there is no quick release plate fitted to the tube so you'll have to fit one yourself. Secondly, my last "pro" is hampered by the fact that the mount actually isn't high enough to slide the tube backwards in the rings (for instance after fitting a RACI finder) and so I've had to add a 10cm riser between the circular base plate and the supplied side panels.

[beamer3.6m]

The free eyepieces with sw scopes are pretty pants.

 

I prefer a red dot finder over a magnified finder anyway.

 

I would do bresser for the mount.

[alacant]

Hi

I don't know Bresser reflectors but if the quality is the same as their refractors, I'd go Bresser. They also answer emails. HTH.

[Charic]

The Skyliner is a decent telescope, the  Bresser looks different in comparison, a bit more stylish though, and   possibly equal in their performance,  and to be honest,  at the end of the Day, the sky conditions, eyepieces  and a correctly collimated telescope  will dictate the quality of your final image.
I would imagine the visual  result  from these two scopes  are very similar, if not the same under the same conditions.

For the extra  £55 its the Bresser for its stylish looks, but who will see them in the dark, or during the day if kept under wraps? The saved £55 will buy a decent 60° Starguider EP!

[CraigT82]

The dob base of the bresser also looks like it's been designed for disassembly, which would be good for storing/transporting the scope when space is tight. 

However, the sheer number of skyliner owners means that if you ever have a problem with it or need advice on modifications then there's plenty of people to offer help. The bresser is relatively new so not to many of them around. 

If you want to add the skyliner to an EQ mount you can pick up a pair of tube rings for £30-40 (plus another £30-40 ish for a dovetail) 

Edited February 28, 2016 by CraigT82

[swamp thing]

Not seen the Bresser in the flesh but those alt bearings sure look good. Larger side  bearings on a dob normally make for much improved smoother  movement and easier balancing.
Like to see one in the flesh though. 

[mattnedgus]

I was wondering if I join in with a bit of a newbie question?  I've done a lot of reading around tonight and settled pretty much on an 8" Dobsonian as being a good all-round starter scope.  I was all about ready to part with some cash (£275 on the Skyliner 200P) when I discovered the Bresser Messier 8" Dob (£333) which somewhat threw a spanner into the works!

The way I see the pro's and con's of the Bresser 8" Dob as described by Ricochet above and Bresser/retailers I've seen are:

 

+ Better focuser (movement / over sized focuser avoids vignetting a smaller barrel might incur)

+ Smoother alt/az movements

+ Secondary mirror edges blackened

+ Primary mirror collimation via knobs

- No optical/magnifying finder and would need something to fasten one to it

- Only one eyepiece

 

But I'd like to know whether it's the opinion of more experienced users that these pro's and con's add up to being worth the extra £60 on top of the Skyliner 200P Dob?  

At the moment I just want to use a scope for viewing that's quick and easy to set up and relatively transportable (in the back of an estate car!).  Someday I might like to try photography but I think that's so far off and would require so much more equipment anyway that it's not really a viable (and financial!) consideration for the foreseeable future.  I like the idea of reducing vignetting, having smoother alt/az and wonder if blackened mirror edges would improve the image(?).  The fact it uses knobs for collimating the primary mirror means I wouldn't have to consider buying any Bobs knobs mods anytime soon...

I'm a little unsure of the Bresser's MDF box using MFI/Ikea style fasteners (I've always found them on the weak side) and although the large semi-circular bearings look great, they don't appear to fasten the telescope as securely to the base (could you knock it enough to have it come completely out of the base?).

I came across the Bresser Messier NT-203 (http://www.rothervalleyoptics.co.uk/bresser-messier-2031200-optical-tube-assembly.html) which looked like it ironed out the issue with the optical finder but it looks like an EQ mount-only option and seems to raise the price bracket again!  (I naively hoped Bresser made a Dobsonian 'kit' to retrofit to such a unit after seeing the Messier 8" Dob!).

I apologise if it's not good etiquette to re-ignite an old(ish) post but it seemed the best place to raise these questions!

Regards,

Matthew

 

Edited July 14, 2016 by mattnedgus

[Ricochet]

14 hours ago, mattnedgus said:

IBut I'd like to know whether it's the opinion of more experienced users that these pro's and con's add up to being worth the extra £60 on top of the Skyliner 200P Dob?  

I would say so, for the focuser alone. The additional initial outlay plus the cost of a  RACI and probably comes out under the cost of a replacement focuser for the Skyliner. I've seen quite a few threads about the Skyliner focusers since I bought he Bresser and have never regretted the extra outlay.

14 hours ago, mattnedgus said:

Someday I might like to try photography

Not with this scope really. Technically you can but the size of the mount required to hold it steady enough for photography means it would probably be cheaper to buy a second smaller scope and mount specifically for the task.

14 hours ago, mattnedgus said:

I'm a little unsure of the Bresser's MDF box using MFI/Ikea style fasteners (I've always found them on the weak side) and although the large semi-circular bearings look great, they don't appear to fasten the telescope as securely to the base (could you knock it enough to have it come completely out of the base?).

I've just given mine a bit of a test and side to side the whole base will rock without any sign of the bearings coming away. The other way of course the tube will just rotate up or down. I haven't had any issues with the construction of the base, although I have only ever taken it apart once to fit a riser so as not to damage it through repeated assembly/disassembly. 

Having to fit a riser to allow more rearward movement for balancing was not something I thought would/should be necessary so a bit of a design flaw but not a massive issue with a bit of diy and some spare wood. I also tried the alternative method of adding weight to the rear of the OTA  (as would be required in a similar situation with the Skyliner)  and it actually made quite a significant difference to the ease of getting the scope out and did reduce my use of the scope until I took them off and fitted the riser instead.

Despite the slightly flimsy mechanics of the RDF I'm still using it with no real issues. It has a nice range of brightness settings and coupled with the additional RACI I haven't felt the need (yet?) to upgrade it.

[alacant]

Hi. Whilst sterling is still worth something (!): http://www.bresser.de/es/Sale/Ofertas-Especiales/Messier-8-Dobson.html

[mattnedgus]

20 hours ago, Ricochet said:

I would say so, for the focuser alone. The additional initial outlay plus the cost of a  RACI and probably comes out under the cost of a replacement focuser for the Skyliner. I've seen quite a few threads about the Skyliner focusers since I bought he Bresser and have never regretted the extra outlay.

Would a RACI fit straight onto the Bresser's existing mounting points or would it need something extra?

What makes the Bresser Focusser better vs the Skywatchers?  I've managed to confuse myself looking at the Revelation 8" Dobsonian with it's dual speed Crayford - would you say the Bresser is easier to achieve fine focus?  I notice the Bresser is more like a helical rack and pinion but I was under the impression Crayford-style focussers were better? 

 

17 hours ago, alacant said:

Hi. Whilst sterling is still worth something (!): http://www.bresser.de/es/Sale/Ofertas-Especiales/Messier-8-Dobson.html

Thanks, that's tempting depending on the rate my card gives me!

Edited July 16, 2016 by mattnedgus
correcting my facts

[Ricochet]

The finder shoes on the Bresser only fit the finder foot on the included RDF. I don't know if a Meade type shoe would fit the same holes but a Synta shoe doesn't fit (the holes are the wrong orientation). I fitted a Synta shoe next to one of the the RDF shoes which required drilling a couple of new holes (after removing the mirrors of course).

 

Crayford focusers are better than cheap rack and pinion focusers but the Bresser hexafoc is absolutely solid with no slop or backlash. The Skywatcher on the other hand has a bit of notoriety for focuser slop, hence the regularity with which you see them with upgraded focusers. Neither are dual speed like the Revelation but you can buy a 10:1 gear ratio for the Bresser, although the single speed is good enough that I haven't got around to it yet. 

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/adapters/bresser-messier-1-10-gear-set-for-hex-focuser.html

 

Edited July 16, 2016 by Ricochet
Added photos

[Charic]

If you want to showcase this scope during the day, I would have the Bresser, based on its style and good looks, but looks alone do not improve the visual result from the eyepiece.
Which ever scope you purchase, no doubt there is room for improvement, be that any upgrade, or eyepiece selection, provided your scope is fully collimated and you  have good conditions for observing.

If your just going to leave it under wraps, in a cupboard, for most of the Summer,  like my Skyliner, due to the high levels of twilight  ( I'm at  at 57°N - The Bresser would  be no different ) there is no better value than the 8" Skyliner, and the view  from either scope using my 8mm Starguider or  an 8mm Delos, my eyes will  probably still perceive the same image.

Go get the Bresser, but that Skyliner is mighty affordable 

Edited July 16, 2016 by Charic

[mattnedgus]

I called Rother Valley Optics and they could get the Bresser in in a few days.

How is the Skyliner balanced if you put heavier Binoviewers on for example?

I'm a little concerned about transporting the Bresser - I think those wheels could be put under strain laid down in a car?  I also wouldn't fancy drilling into a new tube just yet so I'll have to make the decision leaving out a RACI on the Bresser.

I'm leaning more towards the Skyliner - it feels like the optical finder might be better for a starter and a Telrad/Riegel could be zip tied on later rather than needing to drill the tube.  However, I'm struggling to ignore how good Bresser's focusser sounds (with it's zero backlash and smooth motion - and the 'option' of a dual speed add on).  I might ask Rother Valley Optics to get one in to compare side by side.

Edited July 16, 2016 by mattnedgus

[Charic]

59 minutes ago, mattnedgus said:

How is the Skyliner balanced if you put heavier Binoviewers on for example?

I don't have Bino viewers (yet) but if its a lightweight Plossl, a Delos or my Nikon DSLR, I just tighten the tension controls slightly, so no balance issue for me! I would imagine the Bresser to be equal?

The Skyliner can be transported by car, separated from its base, again, the Bresser should be  equal?

The 9x50 finder works well for me if I keep both eyes open! The Telrad is seldom used from home ? and I need glasses to see the bulls-eye!
I have had no issues with the focuser that cant be adjusted, for friction or locking,  again, the Bresser may have a similar solution.

The Bresser does look nice, the Skyliner just works, no frills! Possibly why its so popular? There is an Explorer too, f/5 and EQ  mounted ( just not my cup of tea?)

Edited July 17, 2016 by Charic

[Ricochet]

I don't think there is really going to be any extra strain having the Bresser laid down across the back seat/in the boot of a car than there is when it is sitting in the rocker box with all the weight through those same bearings. It it definitely easier to change finders on the Skyliner as there are many options to fit a Synta shoe. 

[mattnedgus]

I think for now I'll just be happy to have a decent telescope I can use, even if there are more perfect (focuser) options out there - I've been coping with a Celestron Travel Scope 70 and it's true what I've read:  the best telescope is the one you have to hand.

I think I'll go to Rother Valley Optics in the morning and maybe pick up the Skyliner.  I am really tempted with the Bresser because of the Focuser but I have some reservations about their design and I don't want to be drilling anything just yet.

[mattnedgus]

Oh, and Charic: I wear glasses too but I've been finding I put them on when someone else is looking through the scope just so I can see the stars by eye!  I think I understand what you mean though: that to move from scope to finder on an optical finder means you don't need to put them on.  I hadn't considered this when I'd thought about using a red dot finder!

[garthbooks]

On 28/02/2016 at 13:46, Ricochet said:

When I was choosing a scope I had to make almost the same choice, except I also had the 10" Skywatcher in the mix. The difference in quality was enough  to make me chose the Bresser.

Bresser Pros:

• Much better focuser
• Smoother alt/az movements
• Secondary mirror edges blacked
• 6 point vs 3 point primary mirror cell
• Primary mirror collimation via knobs not screws (I think the Skyliners still come with screws?)
• Balance can be adjusted by moving OTA up/down tube rings

Now it's not all plain sailing with the Bresser. Firstly, if you want to add a magnifying finder, there is no quick release plate fitted to the tube so you'll have to fit one yourself. Secondly, my last "pro" is hampered by the fact that the mount actually isn't high enough to slide the tube backwards in the rings (for instance after fitting a RACI finder) and so I've had to add a 10cm riser between the circular base plate and the supplied side panels.

Hello Ricochet, I just purchased the Explorer Scientific FL 8" dob. From what I understand it is the same as the Bresser 8" dob. I think I am also going to have to add the 10cm riser that you added to get my heavier eye pieces to balance and to have enough room to move the tube. Do you have any photos of how you made the riser? Also, how are you liking the scope? Thanks

[Pixies]

The 8" Bresser comes with the Meade-type finder shoe with 4 screws. An ES straight finder will fit, otherwise you can fit a Baader shoe and then use a much larger range of finders.

I fixed the Baader show with just one machine screw (sturdy enough for a large RACI finder). 2 of the old screw holes were covered with the Telrad. The one remaining hole is still to be covered up. Alternatively, you can use 2 of the holes to fix the Baader shoe, if you weren't trying to fit a telrad in the same position.

ALso, you could use some counterbalance weights to balance up the dob instead of trying to raise the base. But I agree - it's a bit odd to build this dob with rings but then not provide enough movement to allow you to use them to balance the scope.

 

[Ricochet]

4 hours ago, garthbooks said:

Hello Ricochet, I just purchased the Explorer Scientific FL 8" dob. From what I understand it is the same as the Bresser 8" dob. I think I am also going to have to add the 10cm riser that you added to get my heavier eye pieces to balance and to have enough room to move the tube. Do you have any photos of how you made the riser? Also, how are you liking the scope? Thanks

I don't have any photos of how I made it, but for some reason my dob had quite a few extra flat pack furniture connectors included with it. I basically copied the method in which the base fits to the upright sections. 

However, I did not find a single balance position that worked at all altitudes. At low altitudes the tube had to be shifted back to balance with my heaviest eyepiece or binoviewers, but at high altitudes it would swing up and so a more forward balance point was required. To counter this I have added a bungee cord as shown in the photo below. At different altitudes the bungee is stretched by different amounts and so exerts a different force. The silver part at the rear of the base consists of a skateboard wheel bearing with repair washers either side to act as a guide. Moving this part up and down the rail changes the distribution between the force pulling the telescope up at low altitudes and down at high altitudes. The rail just above the base allows me to adjust the total force exerted by the bungee. Since adding this device, the telescope is stable at all altitudes and with any eyepiece or no eyepiece without the need to add any additional weights to the tube. Unfortunately, the current balance position is still just low enough that I don't think I could have used it without the extension. 

[garthbooks]

Thanks Ricochet for the info! The bungie idea is great! I can't wait to get my dob! I'll try and post some pics when it comes in.

Edited July 21, 2020 by garthbooks

[garthbooks]

I am also am gonna pick up a Telrad for it!

[Ricochet]

3 hours ago, garthbooks said:

Thanks Ricochet for the info! The bungie idea is great! 

Yes, so far it seems to work really well. 

2 hours ago, garthbooks said:

I am also am gonna pick up a Telrad for it!

Consider the placement of it before you commit to sticking it to the tube. Most people pair it with a RACI finder so you have to make sure that they don't impede each other.