Sony to stop CCD sensor production in 2017

[riklaunim]

There is a new technology that currently costs tens of thousands but is expected to become much more affordable in a relatively short space of time. They did explain it to me but it was a while ago and I confess most of it went over my head. It was something along the lines of independent auto-adjustable gain levels for each and every pixel for greater dynamic range, or something like that. I'll make some phone calls tomorrow and scribble some notes.

Hm... new technologies are usually patented and priced to cover R&D. sCMOS is getting old, maybe patents on that will expire? low read noise would allow higher dynamic range and/or SNR. There are also lin/log or logarithmic sensors for very high dynamic ranges. Pure log sensors made by NIT aren't very cheap but most of them don't have exposure time so it would not do DS imaging (some have). New toys like organic pixels or hyperspectral sensors don't do anything with dynamic range.

They could also do some NIR (and UV) sensors so that we could photograph up to ~1.X micrometers (like more advanced planetary imaging) in a sane price.

[harry page]

Hi

Do not worry I already know there are prototype sony cmos being devolved by astronomy camera manufatures 

some of the these cmos chips can have over 70 % efficiency , there are even backlight versions  and very very low read noise -- I do see in the not too distant future

dumping my ccd cameras for these and imagine sub lengths being irrelevant i.e 10 1 min subs will be equall to 1 10 min sub 

Harry

[Sp@ce_d]

I've heard there's a new fangled technology involving plastic, emulsion & silver..

[frugal]

This does sound very similar to the complaints that daytime photographers had when Kodak announced they were stopping production of film. People complained that the alternative (digital) was not as good as 3rd film, however very few now regret the change to digital.

[Akiainavas]

This does sound very similar to the complaints that daytime photographers had when Kodak announced they were stopping production of film. People complained that the alternative (digital) was not as good as 3rd film, however very few now regret the change to digital.

And exactly the same is happening right now with companies giving up on SLR cameras and going mirror-less. Alternatives are expensive and "not quite there" yet, but most likely, in 5-10 years, we might end up looking at SLRs the same was as we do with film cameras right now.

Simply, technology goes forward, whether we like it or not, there's no stopping it

[JamesF]

Simply, technology goes forward, whether we like it or not, there's no stopping it

Wasn't that the motto of the Manhattan Project?

James

[Akiainavas]

Wasn't that the motto of the Manhattan Project?

James

I hope not

[Robp]

Whilst this may seem like bad news, as people have already pointed tech will move on.

We are a resourceful bunch, and if there is nothing suitable out of the box I'm sure someone will adapt something. We are still using webcams for planetary that are no longer in production!

[FLO]

From what we are hearing from one or two camera manufacturers that is true. There is a new technology that currently costs tens of thousands but is expected to become much more affordable in a relatively short space of time. They did explain it to me but it was a while ago and I confess most of it went over my head. It was something along the lines of independent auto-adjustable gain levels for each and every pixel for greater dynamic range, or something like that. I'll make some phone calls tomorrow and scribble some notes. 

Just come off the phone. This will be a disjointed post because that is often how conversations are and I want to post details while I can still understand my notes. 

Sony haven't officially decided to end production. In an internal email a senior Sony manager said he felt they 'should' end production. An official decision, as far as I know, hasn't been made but the industry have been expecting them to reach that conclusion because the plant making the silicon structure for CCD sensors is running at around only 30% of it's full capacity. The industry are buying less CCD sensors as they focus on the much more affordable CMOS technology. 

There is speculation Sony will sell their CCD manufacturing facilities so it is likely supply will continue for a few years, though probably on a smaller scale. 

Owners of imaging cameras using Sony CCD sensors (the majority of us) need not be concerned. Sony CCD sensors are incredibly reliable, it is not unusual to find cameras sold around ten years ago still in use today and I think we can safely expect the larger more established imaging camera manufacturers to hold stock of sensors to cover warranty repairs. 

Some in the industry (myself included) are viewing this situation in a positive light. Whilst CCD design and manufacture has evolved it is based on 10-15 year old technology. That's a long time! If Sony end CCD manufacture it won't be done overnight, supply will continue for around five years and the demise of CCD would probably push the development of CMOS further. 

There are other technologies available. One technology - Electron Multiplying sensors - is especially impressive and has a lot to offer. Currently it is too expensive but that will change. If it is developed further and becomes available at an affordable price it could be a game-changer. 

CCD is dead, long live CCD 

Steve

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

If I look at the specs of the current IMX174 I have to wonder how much more can be had. Dark noise could be reduced a bit more, but is actually very good at the moment, QE is about 70%, but the spectral range might be extended a bit, and read-out noise is very low, even at very high frame rates. Some CCDs can outperform these (cheap as chips ) CMOS devices, but the best CMOS chips are already outperforming earlier CCDs. Electron multiplying sensors cannot help very much: if QE reaches 80% (which it has done or will do shortly), you can reduce exposure times by at most 20% if your QE reaches the theoretical limit of 100%, to get the same photon noise. All electron mulitplying technology could do beyond going to 100% QE is increase the number of electrons per photon (i.e. increasing the gain, which will increase photon noise by the same factor)

We can catch the vast majority of photons hitting the sensor today, we cannot catch many more, or as Scotty would say: "Ye cannae change the laws of physics, capt'n!!"

[FLO]

... and I think we can safely expect the larger more established imaging camera manufacturers to hold stock of sensors to cover warranty repairs. 

Dare I say if you have paid extra to buy an established brand pat yourself on the back because further down the road the ongoing support will help you achieve a higher resale value  

Steve

[dph1nm]

I thought the point of the electron mulitplying technology was to (essentially) eliminate read noise. So good news for those of use doing short, unguided exposures (or long narrowband exposures!), but irrelevant for anyone who is already sky noise limited.

NigelM

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

I thought the point of the electron mulitplying technology was to (essentially) eliminate read noise. So good news for those of use doing short, unguided exposures (or long narrowband exposures!), but irrelevant for anyone who is already sky noise limited.

NigelM

That does make sense.

[riklaunim]

Sony haven't officially decided to end production. In an internal email a senior Sony manager said he felt they 'should' end production. An official decision, as far as I know, hasn't been made but the industry have been expecting them to reach that conclusion because the plant making the silicon structure for CCD sensors is running at around only 30% of it's full capacity. The industry are buying less CCD sensors as they focus on the much more affordable CMOS technology.

Allied Vision (one of their partners) wrote a long interview about it. Framos letter says all CCDs are "discontinued" and so on. Sony partners like those wouldn't do such things if it wasn't confirmed. But Sony still has "no comment" policy on this subject

[FLO]

Allied Vision (one of their partners) wrote a long interview about it. Framos letter says all CCDs are "discontinued" and so on. Sony partners like those wouldn't do such things if it wasn't confirmed. But Sony still has "no comment" policy on this subject

Okay  

The industry have been expecting this for some time so it won't surprise anyone if/when Sony announce it. 

Steve 

[Luke]

I got a CCD for solar imaging about 18 months ago. It's a lovely camera but I recently got  the ZWO ASI174 CMOS as a second camera (his and hers) and I am really impressed. It's still early days and I haven't pushed it hard yet due to the weather/seeing but it's obvious it's a good camera. So I imagine I am done with CCD anyway. Cheaper, larger sensor and faster frame rate than my CCD.