Celestron - Evolution, CPC or Advanced VX?

[gnomus]

I have had a Meade ETX 125 for a few years now and I am getting the itch to upgrade.  This 'itch' was prompted by seeing the new Nexstar Evolution series.  I thought the 8 inch evolution would be the next logical step.

By way of background: for the moment the scope I do buy will need to be set up and taken down (in my back garden) each session.  I will begin by doing primarily visual observing (that's all I really did with the ETX).  However, I am a keen photographer and have a fair bit of photographic gear, including an Nikon D800E DSLR (this model also shoots video).  At some point I am, at the very least, going to want to stick the Nikon on the end of whatever scope I do buy.

As I continued to research the Evolution, however, I came across the CPC series.  This looked a substantial piece of kit and I went to have a look at one.  It was a little on the heavy side, but seemed manageable.  For around the same money, it seemed I would be getting a fair chunk of kit - it looked to me that the CPC would be much more stable than the Evolution.  I figured that I could live without Wireless and I could live without the built-in rechargeable battery.

So I was getting close to pulling the trigger on the CPC 800, when I noticed the Advanced VX Edge HD 8" package.  OK - I can also do without the GPS on the CPC (after all I am going to be observing at the same place each night).  It is a little less money, but the scope itself seems to be a step up in quality.  Furthermore, it looks like it could take me some way into Astrophotography if I ever caught that bug.

But ... how much more complicated is it going to be to set up and use?  If it is a pain, am I going to end up choosing to watch Pro-Celebrity Needlepoint because I can't be bothered setting up the Advanced VX mount?  This is the question I am trying to answer.  My first and, so far, only scope is the ETX - I've never used an equatorial mount before.  I wanted, therefore, to check a few things about the Advanced VX, if you will allow me:

1)  Am I correct in believing that I can do a "rough" set up - then go through the 2 star alignment (and calibration) process, and I will then have set up that is adequate for visual-only observing - and with decent GOTO functionality?  

2)  How would such a set up compare with the GOTO abilities of the Evolution and CPC.

3)  Roughly how long a set up time would I be looking at for the "rough" set up described above?

4)  How much time would I be looking at to get the scope into a stage of polar alignment that would allow at least an initial foray into the AP game?

Thanks in anticipation for your assistance.

   

[CodnorPaul]

I use an neq6 and set up/take down each session - doesn't take long and polar aligning is easy, about 3 minute job especially for visual. If you are considering AP then get the avx, it will save you money long term

[HighHo]

I just got the AVX (3 days ago) with the C8 SCT, its very easy to move around I can pick uo the whole setup and move it, but removing the counter weight and scope if needed is a matter of seconds. Alignment is easy, although I stuggled a bt yesterday as I must have knocked my finderscope out so I opted for just viewing the moon for a bit! I use a Nikon camera also and seems to work well with the scope I took a couple of picture on the first night, attached a single 15sec exposure below (nothing special, my alignment was perfect as I didnt realise it was going to be such clear skies)! On thing to consider with the Edge HD is the cost of the focal reducer, this was the only reason I really went with the standard C8 although your budget may allow for this, or be happy to start without it.

Heres the ring nebula I took on first night with my Nikon (no prize winner, just more just a quick test to ensure I could focus to my camera).

[gnomus]

Thank you for the replies and encouragement. I'm going to go and take a look at the AVX. HighHo: Congratulations on your image. One 15 sec exposure you say! What ISO is that shot at?

Also, regarding your recommendation of a reducer - is that the f/6.3 Celestron @ approx £100 that you are suggesting?

[Grotemobile]

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/cpc-deluxe-hd/celestron-cpc-deluxe-800-hd.html

This is the scope i bought.I sold my C11.I only do planetary

& lunar Imaging, It is way in front optically, than the C11.

Best scope I have bought.So easy to set up. 

Steve

[HighHo]

It was at 1600ISO as you can see theres some trailing starting due to my quick alignment, and still need to get a focus mask. It was taken using prime focus with the f/6.3 Celestron reducer you mentioned. I think the .7 reducer for the C8 edge HD around the £250 mark.

Lovely image and ring seperation Grote.

[gnomus]

It was at 1600ISO as you can see theres some trailing starting due to my quick alignment, and still need to get a focus mask. It was taken using prime focus with the f/6.3 Celestron reducer you mentioned. I think the .7 reducer for the C8 edge HD around the £250 mark.

Lovely image and ring seperation Grote.

Thanks again HighHo. I went out to get the Advance VX with the 8" Edge HD. However, I allowed myelf to get talked into a CGEM mount (ex-display) for only a lttle more. I've been playing around a bit with it - it's pretty heavy. Do folks generally leave the mount on the tripod, and carry mount + tripod out each night, or do they tend to carry each bit out separately?

Can't quite try out the scope yet because the tube was supplied with wrong dovetail mount!! (Replacement is in the post.)

[HighHo]

That should be a really nice setup for imagining I carry mine together when moving from inside to my garden (no more than 10 meters). Your mount is however much heavier than mine,so I would probably personallly seperate them as its only really adds a few mins.

In short, whatever you find easier/manageable, just dont break your back.

[ollypenrice]

These are good scopes for fast frame planetary imaging using webcam based devices or the video mode of a DSLR.

They are a bad choice for entering the deep sky imaging arena, though. The very long focal length (even at F6.3 it's pretty long) makes big demands on the mount in terms of tracking accuracy, even using an autoguider. There are other difficulties as well, which is why they are not hugely popular amongs DS posters. For instance the small value for arcseconds per pixel adds to the tracking and focusing difficulty. It can be done, it is done, but it would be a better choice for someone with a few years' experience.

If DS imaging is not a high priority then fine. But be aware of the considerable difficulties if it is.

Olly

[Owmuchonomy]

Just be aware of the learning curve for 'getting into' AP. I've been at it for just over 12 months and still find it a significant challenge. There is no quick set up or a short cut of any sort. I found putting in a lot reading, taking SGL advice and pure persistence were necessary to get my first images. Do that and I'm sure you will be rewarded well. Regarding Olly's comment on FL vs DSOs then I can vouch for what a significant challenge it is. I aimed for 'bright' DSOs first such as M82 and SN2014J below taken at 2350mm with my 9.25 SCT (unguided). Enjoy your new mount.

[Blazar]

Thanks again HighHo. I went out to get the Advance VX with the 8" Edge HD. However, I allowed myelf to get talked into a CGEM mount (ex-display) for only a lttle more. I've been playing around a bit with it - it's pretty heavy. Do folks generally leave the mount on the tripod, and carry mount + tripod out each night, or do they tend to carry each bit out separately?

Can't quite try out the scope yet because the tube was supplied with wrong dovetail mount!! (Replacement is in the post.)

Nice kit.....I have the AVX and break it all down and it is stored in the original boxes it came in. Then when I go out to sites I take all the boxes and set-up when I get there (just to ensure a level tripod etc before placing the mount head on.) DAN-UK brings his CGEM to the site along with loads of other gear, so it is a grab (strain) and go (slowly) type set-up...

Only takes 10 mins or so to get it set-up prior to alignment.

good luck!

[gnomus]

Nice kit.....I have the AVX and break it all down and it is stored in the original boxes it came in. Then when I go out to sites I take all the boxes and set-up when I get there (just to ensure a level tripod etc before placing the mount head on.) DAN-UK brings his CGEM to the site along with loads of other gear, so it is a grab (strain) and go (slowly) type set-up...

Only takes 10 mins or so to get it set-up prior to alignment.

good luck!

Thanks for all the advice. As I said at start, the scope will be primarily for visual, I may stick a camera on the back from time to time for lunar and maybe a bit of planetary. Appreciate the comments about deep sky. I read in the manual about the Faststar option. Has anyone tried this?

Also, any suggestions as to accesories? I have a range of Meade 4000 plossls from 40 down to 9.7. I got hold of a Meade 18mm UWA some time back (that was really too big for the ETX) - I'm hoping that should work well on the new scope. I'm thinking about the Celeston Luminos for a 7mm. I've ordered a flexible dewshield. Any other 'essentials'?

[baggywrinkle]

I have the AVX mount and use it with the 9.25 SCT.

A rough set up is easy, I use an inclinometer and a compass. The GOTO is very good.

The other night I did a single Solar system set up using the Moon and the pointing accuracy was very good for all that.

Take the weights off and it is easy to move in and out of doors.

[nsansom]

I have been agonising over whether to get the 9.25 Nexstar Evolution, the 9.25 AVX, or the 8 EdgeHD AVX package. My concerns were much the same as yours. We have a place in East Sussex which is high, in the countryside, has plenty of places to set up and dark skies. However, as we rent the place out and live in a town six miles away my opportunities for getting out and setting up properly are limited. I know the Nexstar Evolution makes sense as I can put my head out the door, check for clear skies, and set up on my south facing drive in no time. I had worried about aligning the VX given that North is on the other side of the house, but if the two bright object alignment process really works ok I think this is possibly a viable option...

The decision between the 9.25 and the 8 EdgeHD is causing me some angst. I am a keen nature photographer, with Canon 7D and some nice lenses. Like you, I don't think I am going to get into Astrophotography right from the start, but just know that ultimately I'm going to want to take pics to share with others. In truth I don't know how much of a benefit the 8 HD has over the 9.25. Is it enough to choose the smaller scope at the expense of aperture and better light gathering? Any advice here most welcome.

The expert shop people advising me are really great, and I do admire them tremendously. Their advice is to "buy the Nexstar Evolution and see where you're going with this hobby before going for something that will be harder to set up and may not get used often". I do appreciate this, but I keep coming back to the thought that I should 'future proof' myself as much as possible in this decision. I had a much smaller scope as a boy, and have thought about getting a nice one for absolutely years, but my better half has decided to treat me for my 50th to something really nice. Lucky me! But I'm still stuck between three models. At least I have moved away from the 16" Dobsonian I thought I might get...

Regards, Nigel

[Blazar]

I have been agonising over whether to get the 9.25 Nexstar Evolution, the 9.25 AVX, or the 8 EdgeHD AVX package. My concerns were much the same as yours. We have a place in East Sussex which is high, in the countryside, has plenty of places to set up and dark skies. However, as we rent the place out and live in a town six miles away my opportunities for getting out and setting up properly are limited. I know the Nexstar Evolution makes sense as I can put my head out the door, check for clear skies, and set up on my south facing drive in no time. I had worried about aligning the VX given that North is on the other side of the house, but if the two bright object alignment process really works ok I think this is possibly a viable option...

The decision between the 9.25 and the 8 EdgeHD is causing me some angst. I am a keen nature photographer, with Canon 7D and some nice lenses. Like you, I don't think I am going to get into Astrophotography right from the start, but just know that ultimately I'm going to want to take pics to share with others. In truth I don't know how much of a benefit the 8 HD has over the 9.25. Is it enough to choose the smaller scope at the expense of aperture and better light gathering? Any advice here most welcome.

The expert shop people advising me are really great, and I do admire them tremendously. Their advice is to "buy the Nexstar Evolution and see where you're going with this hobby before going for something that will be harder to set up and may not get used often". I do appreciate this, but I keep coming back to the thought that I should 'future proof' myself as much as possible in this decision. I had a much smaller scope as a boy, and have thought about getting a nice one for absolutely years, but my better half has decided to treat me for my 50th to something really nice. Lucky me! But I'm still stuck between three models. At least I have moved away from the 16" Dobsonian I thought I might get...

Regards, Nigel

Nigel,

First off a good selection of scopes for visual use (and the HD versions are imaging ready....though see below).

The Edge 800 is a nice scope (and not as little as you think). It has done well for me in terms of imaging the lunar surface, and just started to have a go at planetary. Both lunar and planetary use small CMOS cameras to take lots of frames and then you stack them (choosing the best ones). Both the 800 and 925 are great for this aspect:

What can the Edge800 do? (when you also have a CMOS camera)

so this is with the 800...the 925 would get you closer....:

However when using a DSLR at prime focus its a different story.

Jupiter looks like this (without a barlow):

Now bear in mind that really only certain planets really are close enough, or large enough to be imaged with scopes....that shot is a 640 x 480 pane..and you can see how small Jupiter is, though will be bigger in the 925....then add in a barlow and you can get quite close. Think someone once said the minimum size to really do justice was 11inch...though I am happy with what I can do at present.

The AVX mount Looks complicated....

The Advanced VX mount....superb. It is also my first motorised EQ mount. I had a manual one with my TAL's and learnt the basics of setting one, point north, etc, and its not that difficult. The alignment process takes a couple of goes to get to grips with, but its like anything new. It is good to know the night sky as you know what stars it is trying to align off, but these days stellarium will help with that....or use your phone to tell you. It really is a nice piece of kit. I move mine around and set-up when doing lunar, and just do a solar system align (IE of the moon) and its good enough for that task). DSO is another matter. 

What do you want to do (now and in future)?

I think it depends on what you want to do, as no one scope is perfect for all imaging. The SCT scopes are considered slower (in terms of F/ratio), and have a long focal length (the edge 800 is 2032mm) therefore really ideal for lunar and planetary imaging (with the 925 being considered a very good scope and the exception to the 11 inch rule).

Galaxies and clusters (IE DSO) really need faster scopes and wider fields of view (hence why I have the Edge800 for when the moon / planets are around, and the WO Star 71 (f/4.9, 350mm focal length for when its not!)

The most important part of any imaging is the mount. AN EQ mount is considered mandatory for imaging (so the evolution is not so good being an Alt/Az).

Thoughts before buying anything:

You could start by just attaching your camera to a driven mount, and take some great wide field images with your camera equipment. no need for the telescope straight away...The mount is the key. If you have some great lenses, then have a look in the imaging wide field section on the forums to see what equipment people are using and ask some questions.

I think it might be wise to get yourself a copy of Making every photon count if you really would like to start taking images. This is kind of the imagers bible, and shows the kind of equipment and thoughts for DSO DSLR imaging, and CCD imaging. 

My gallery is on my profile if you want to see some more stuff from the 800....of course though....I do want an Edge14 now ;-)

Good luck with your choice...what a wonderful dilemma to have ;-)

Regards

[nsansom]

Thanks for this totally brilliant and comprehensive answer to my question. I didn't mean to hijack someone else's thread, but think he'll find this useful too...

I love these images you've taken, and look forward to checking out the others you have here.

Best regards, Nigel

[Kate09]

Good afternoon to you all

I am also having the same dilemma, although, i've ruled out the CPC because I believe it will be too heavy to manoeuvre.  Therefore, it's a two horse race between the Evolution and the Edge HD (8" in either). 

As a beginner, the Evolution appeals because it is lighter, has a bit more technological gadgetry and looks like something I could get to grips with pretty quickly.   That said, I know in time I will probably like to get involved with some astro-photography and from what i've read the Edge HD leads in this area? 

Proto Star, the images you provide above are simply spectacular... I will have a look at your profile page shortly. 

As to the other prospective buyers on this thread, have you now purchased a telescope? Which one did you go for and how are you finding it?

Thanks v much 

Kate 

[Blazar]

Good afternoon to you all

I am also having the same dilemma, although, i've ruled out the CPC because I believe it will be too heavy to manoeuvre.  Therefore, it's a two horse race between the Evolution and the Edge HD (8" in either). 

As a beginner, the Evolution appeals because it is lighter, has a bit more technological gadgetry and looks like something I could get to grips with pretty quickly.   That said, I know in time I will probably like to get involved with some astro-photography and from what i've read the Edge HD leads in this area? 

Proto Star, the images you provide above are simply spectacular... I will have a look at your profile page shortly. 

As to the other prospective buyers on this thread, have you now purchased a telescope? Which one did you go for and how are you finding it?

Thanks v much 

Kate 

Welcome Kate,

The Edge 800 is my second type of scope. When I got my first scope I thought that was large until this one arrived. 

In terms of technical gadgetry the mount is where it all sits. The telescope (or OTA) is just the tube and mirrors / lens...and you are paying for the optics. In the case of the Edge, then yes, this series is designed to be of use to imagers. That being said, the areas these scopes excel are for planetary and lunar. trying to use these for DSO is difficult! 

Thanks for the compliments on the images. I started down the imaging route a year or two ago, and to say its expensive is an understatement! it really is a slippery slope, but I used to enjoy taking pictures through the eyepiece with a point and shoot camera...and that was great fun.

You won't go far wrong with either of the scopes you have mentioned. The evolution just won't be as useful for imaging without purchasing a 'wedge' to tilt it. You really need and EQ mount for imaging.

Best of luck!

[Geordie mc]

I only need the OTA and am looking hard at the Edge range. I want it for lunar and planetary work. Is there much advantage to the bigger aperture offered by the 1100 or would the 800 be very similar? The price difference is huge! Nice images Blazar. I take it you like the ZWO camera. What accessories are you using with it. I think it's a great camera and have it on my shopping list. I thought about the colour version for ease of use, but the mono seems to give better results.

[Blazar]

I only need the OTA and am looking hard at the Edge range. I want it for lunar and planetary work. Is there much advantage to the bigger aperture offered by the 1100 or would the 800 be very similar? The price difference is huge! Nice images Blazar. I take it you like the ZWO camera. What accessories are you using with it. I think it's a great camera and have it on my shopping list. I thought about the colour version for ease of use, but the mono seems to give better results.

For Lunar and planetary the 800 is nice. You can get a lot of the moon in view, and I feel it can add context to each shot. However (there is always one). A lot of planetary peeps use 11 and up...though as I said earlier there is an exception to the rule and that is the 9.25. The nine and a quarter has a bit of a sweet spot for planets (just look at the work produced by Damien Peach). I am seriously looking towards an 11 as the next step up though. The 14 would be nice, but I WILL need a new mount as well...

In terms of other bits, I have an external Moonlite crayford focuser (which is very nice). I have the ZWO camera, and now the filter wheel (and filters). The Mono camera will always have the edge over a colour camera IMO. ZWO are producing a new camera (think its called the 174), which will even blow my 120mm-s out of the water. A good filter for Lunar and planetary images are the IR pass type (though there are others). I built my own power box, and just recently added some dew tapes to the set-up as well. A dew shield is all you need first off...

So thats about it really.

[Geordie mc]

Thanks for that. I might save up for the 9.25 then. It's more achievable than the 1100 without a divorce. I was hoping to get the camera in the next few weeks and add the filter wheel later. Any idea when the new one will be available? Be typical if I splash the cash and discover the new one is fantastic and around the same price or cheaper.

[Blazar]

No idea when the 174 will be out (might be worth digging around the ZWO forum and see if they have any news. They have been putting up information on their Facebook page about its performance though:

164FPS @ 10bit ADC Output and 128FPS @ 12bit ADC Output run at full resolution 1936X1216, the speed of ASI174 will be amazing!just prepare a fast SSD

Please don't just take my word for it. Have a look at some of the images produced by the 9.25. However (another one) Damian Peach has now moved to a C14HD.... matching the camera to the scope will be important (though looking by the equipment you already own, you probably know all about that side of it ;-))