So Small...

[bmontalto]

Hi there,

I've been waiting for many days till the sky would be cloud free to finally set up my telescope and do some stargazing.  I have a Skywatcher Explorer (Netwonian build) 200/1000 with an NEQ5 mount.  I was using a 25mm eyepiece (I also have a 2x Barlow Lens and a 10mm eyepiece but I wasn't using it at them point in time).  Finally the night I was waiting for arrived and I quickly set up my equipment in my garden.  

ISSUE 1

Since we have a New Moon at the moment, I decided to focus on the Orion Nebula (M42).  It looked rather cool considering that I could not see it with my naked eyes.  It looked like a nice bird in space.  However I thought it looked a little bit small.  I then decided to find Jupiter.  Within minutes I had it in sight... but oh how small it was!  It was barely 3mm diameter when I had it in focus, and it was extremely bright.  With difficulty, immense squinting and some imagination, I could somewhat make out 2 cloud belts on Jupiter.

Am I doing something wrong or is this really what I'm meant to be seeing?  I did a bit of searching on the internet and came across a wonderful calculator: http://www.12dstring.me.uk/fov.htm.  I've attached a picture of what it told me I should be seeing with my equipment.  It depicts more or less what I was able to see yesterday night.  If I have not done anything wrong and this is what I really am meant to be seeing, how may I be able to see something decent?  As I mentioned, I do have a 2x barlow lens and I do understand it will magnify what I see 2x.  But in the meantime I had a different problem that did not allow me to see anything through my telecope.  This brings me to my second issue.

ISSUE 2

I decided to attach my Canon 350d camera to take a photo of Jupiter and zoom in on it on my computer.  That's when the chaos started.  I could not bring Jupiter in focus on my camera.  I removed my camera and put back my 25mm eyepiece as it was before but I could only see a very bright object that must have been jupiter filling out the complete eyepiece and it was extremely bright and blurry.  It was so bright I could see the floaters in my eyes!  I tried turning the focussing knob in both directions many, many times but to no avail.  Then I tried everything.  I was switching lenses, adding the Barlow Lens with my lenses, but I was always getting the same picture.  When I looked closely, I was even able to see the telescope's spider legs and a black circular object in the middle of the bright object.  I tried taking photos of this with my phone, but they're not very clear.  Needless to say, I could not see anything else in the sky.  

I really doubt i broke my telescope as I handle it with extreme care.  I did not touch the knobs holding the mirrors so I could not have moved the mirrors completely out of place.  It WAS a cold night (temperatures of -2 Celcius) but the telescope should handle these circumstances.  I have no idea what happened and wonder if someone had this happen to him/her before.  I'm attaching the pictures I made with my phone too.

Thanks!

Jupiter

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Blurry Stuff

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[JamesF]

Jupiter will appear quite small with a 25mm eyepiece in your scope.  You'll be getting 40x magnification.  200x magnification, assuming the seeing is good, would be a decent target.  For that you'll need a 5mm eyepiece, or your 10mm eyepiece with the 2x barlow.  The supplied eyepiece and barlow probably aren't that stunning I'm afraid, but that's the kind of area you're looking for.  If the seeing is very good you might even go for a shorter focal length eyepiece.  4mm would give 250x.

I'd leave the camera issue for the moment to be honest.  It's possible your DSLR won't reach focus without a barlow, but I'm not sure with your scope.  If you can see the legs of the spider and the shadow of the secondary then you're way out of focus, but generally the focus position will be completely different for a camera and an eyepiece anyhow.  I'd suggest getting the hang of using your scope visually before attempting any imaging, and then perhaps start with the Moon as it's a rather easier target to work with.

James

[NGC 1502]

Issue 1 - how high above the horizon was Jupiter when you observed it ?  Gets much better when it's high up.

How long had the scope been outside ?  Can take a while for the scope to cool to ambient temp and give the best views.

Is it collimated correctly ?   At medium to high power, view a bright star, then defocus, keep the defocused star in the centre of the field of view, the circles of light should look concentric, not skewed to one side.

Hope you sort it and get better views, Ed.

[leelee970]

James is correct, 25mm is more for the Grand Tour of space.

I start off with my trusty 24mm then change to a 7.5mm and if things still look good I'll add a decent X2 Barlow.

I have issues with eyepieces and cameras, I need to change my extension tube(35mm) to gain focus.

Start with the Moon and Globular and Open Clusters, then move onto the smaller stuff.

Lee

[bendiddley]

I use a 5mm ep in my 200p for jupiter and it looks great. i think i have managed to see 4 bands with that one. Orion neb for me looks best in my 12mm. Have tried a 7mm and it just goes to dark and you loose the detail.

[Rihard]

Hello  bmontalto,

I have the same telescope, and as mentioned by other members, the 25mm eyepiece is for low magnification, wide views of the sky. Orion nebula covers a very extended area (I'd say several light years) so it will show moderately large. You won't see the whole nebula though

Jupiter, however, despite of being part of our solar system and so much closer then Orion and being a Gas Giant, is still very far and it will require more magnification then a 25mm eyepiece. With good seeing (and good collimation) the 10mm will be showing very good details on Jupiter. Add up the 2X barlow and you will obtain a 5mm like magnification (I guess equivalent to 200X magnification) and that will show nice detail on Jupiter. This is what I was able to achieve with a 200P and 3X barlow and a small firefly camera. It looks pretty large

In regards to the focus issues with your Canon camera, I don't think there should be specific problems related to focus with that camera and telescope. Another member of SGL is very successful imaging DSO's with the same camera as yours and a 200P. Just not sure if that would require any different spacer / adapter.

One thing might have caused the focus issues: you might have used the 2" Eyepiece holder .  I have seen many people having focus issues because they thought they had to use also that part (I made the same mistake once with the 200P). That's not required and might cause focus issues with certain cameras and eyepieces. 

One last note, temperature, position of the planet, sky transparency and turbulences in general might add difficulties in focussing objects. 

Hope this helps

Clear Skies

[Astro Imp]

ISSUE 2

  I removed my camera and put back my 25mm eyepiece as it was before but I could only see a very bright object that must have been jupiter filling out the complete eyepiece and it was extremely bright and blurry.  It was so bright I could see the floaters in my eyes!  I tried turning the focussing knob in both directions many, many times but to no avail.  

Had you tightened the locking thumb screw on the focuser, with this locked you can turn the focuser as many times as you like and the focuser won't move. When you were turning the focuser did you notice if the tube was moving?

Don't worry I'm sure have damaged your scope.

[bmontalto]

Hi All,

thanks very much for all your replies and help!  Once again I am really surprised at the speed by which issues can be dealt with and how well they can be explained on this forum

@James F, & Leelee970: I guess I am too much of a newbie to try astrophotography, especially on my very first night I've been able to use the telescope!  I do have a tendency to try to run before I can walk  

@NGC 1502: I do not know exactly how high Jupiter was above the horizon, but I guess the time of observation was around 22:30 local (i.e. 21:30GMT).  My assumption is that is was not at its highest point, but pretty close. My telescope was out for over an hour, I guess it was long enough for it to be able to cool down to its atmospheric temperatures.  As for collimation of my telescope, I must admit I haven't got around to doing so.  I'm still trying to find an easy manual, with simple steps and good pictures!

@Rihard: Thanks for the detailed explanation!  When good conditions prevail, I'll try once again to find Jupiter and try the 10mm with the 2x Barlow lens.  I hope I won't have any focusing issues.  Awesome picture you have there... There still is hope I may see something in our solar system which is decent sized (apart from the sun and the moon!).  Although I do have the 2" Eyepiece Holder, I'm not using it.  When I attach my camera I use the standard 1.25" Eyepiece Holder, stick the 1.25" connecting tube (camera adapter) to the Omegon T-2 Ring for Canon EOS, and stick that to the former 1.25" Eyepiece holder I mentioned on the telescope.  So all in all I have the telescope with 3 pieces of metal connecting to each other, and then my camera.  I'm guessing that's how things should stick together.

What I think may have happened is that after attaching my camera and trying to bring Jupiter to focus on my camera, I may have:

• either over turned the telescope focusing knob too many times, maybe jamming it in place;
• or tried turning the small locking screw directly beneath the focus knob (I didn't see this small screw which apparently locks the focus knob but still allows the focus knob to rotate).  

So I'm hoping I accidentally locked the focusing knob with the small screw, and although the knob still turns, the actual focus movement does not take place giving me a constant out of focus object on my eyepiece.  And as for the first issue, I'm going to try the 10mm with a 2x Barlow Lens.  I hope this solves the issue!

Thanks once again!

[bmontalto]

@ Astro Imp: I must have been reading your mind (or vice versa!)  Thanks

[itmo]

I usually watch jupiter with 150 to 300x magnification. a good planetary eyepiece is a must for good contrast , also very good collimation is needed. 300 might be achievable on an 8"/200mm scope. With my 12" and 300x magnification i can see belts and quite a lot of other details. With my 8" tube and 100x magnification i could see 2 belts fine but not much else. 

[leelee970]

We all start off at the same point, complete beginners.

It does get easier with more practice and time at the scope.

Do research what you want to do and remember you'll get there (in your own time).

I just wish I didn't keep making the same silly mistakes over and over again, and when I get it right another problem occurs, lol

All part of the fun of Astronomy.

Lee

[leelee970]

There is an excellent report on here about "collimation of a Newt".

It seems scary at first but it really isn't (again more practice - I check mine every time I'm out using the scope, and mine is in a Obsy so should need too much attention).

why don't you ask the good people on here about it and they can point you to the wonderful link?

I changed my standard focuser for a low profile one - this requires a 35mm extension tube,  T adaptor, Canon Eos T ring, Canon camera.

[Kirscovitch]

I remember the first night I saw Jupiter. (Only a few weeks ago actually lol) Started with a 25mm and could see the moons clearly. Switched to my 9mm and could faintly make out some bands. Put in the 2x barlow and the 9 and she leaped to life. Could make out the bands pretty clearly and the moons were beautiful. 

But like you said, it all looks so small. 

But just remember, at its closest, Jupiter is about 370 million miles from earth. I marvel at how big it looks 

[itmo]

Actually currently jupiter is BIG since it is almost at it's nearest point to earth (opposition).

[Astrosurf]

I remove the 1.25" EP holder form the flanged attachment that attaches to the focusing tube. I remove the flanged attachment and screw the T-ring into that. Then attach the camera. I don't have any issues focusing with the 200P.

Also, a lot of people use a modified webcam to image planets and the Moon. They have a large frame rate to capture loads of images and these images are then stacked in the freeware Registax. Others take videos with their DSLRs (if you have that facility). As has been said, get used to your scope first! Imaging is tricky to start off with but, like so many other things, it gets easier. (Oh, and more and more expensive - you've been warned!  .)

If you want to get into imaging, buy 'Making Every Photon Count' by Steve Richards. It's the imagers' bible. Read it before you try anything else!

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/books/making-every-photon-count-steve-richards.html

Good luck!

Alexxx

[CSM]

Read the very first item on this web site in the Getting Started with Observing - What can I expect to see.

[CSM]

And I meant to add, forget about collimation and AstroPhotography for the moment.  Concentrate on learning how to use the scope and find your way around.  It's a big learning curve and you need to take your time.

[itmo]

Collimation is a fun pastime you can do when it is cloudy  

[bmontalto]

@ Astrosurf: thanks for the tip!  I didn't realise the Canon T-Ring could be directly attached like that.  It might make it easier for eventual focussing on the camera.

As you all say, I will not be concentrating much on astrophotography unless I have a whole night to myself and curiosity gets the better of me!  I only had tried to attach my camera initially to try get a better picture of Jupiter after my initial disappointment.  But now I'm better informed about what eyepieces to use for planetary viewing and what other ones are best for DSOs.  I'll definitely be getting books on astrophotography

[Rihard]

 When I attach my camera I use the standard 1.25" Eyepiece Holder, stick the 1.25" connecting tube (camera adapter) to the Omegon T-2 Ring for Canon EOS, and stick that to the former 1.25" Eyepiece holder I mentioned on the telescope.  So all in all I have the telescope with 3 pieces of metal connecting to each other, and then my camera.  I'm guessing that's how things should stick together.

Thanks once again!

I think we're getting there

I think 3 pieces between the camera and scope are too many, but I guess I have nothing more relevant to add to what Astrosurf said: there will be just those 2 pieces between the dSLR and the telescope.

I also agree to a certain extent that it can be useful to learn your way around the sky / practice with the telescope and the various eyepieces / barlow combinations before jumping into the fine art of astro-imaging, however, it won't do any harm if after each observing session you will attach your camera to the scope and take a shot of the moon and a video of Jupiter for the record, and if you have any kind of tracking and good polar alignment, you could also take a few long exposures of stars and other objects if you like.  A friend of mine recently bought his first telescope (A goto dob 200P) and in 2 / 3 weeks became so comfortable with imaging that he has been able to photograph clusters and galaxies in a manner that I have never achieved in 2 years of attempts with my Eq mount

If you want to make your life easier, consider a laser collimator as next purchase. It does not cost much more then a traditional collimating eyepiece and it does make a great difference. My scope was quite out of collimation when it arrived 2 years ago, and I've never been able to re-align the mirrors so precisely until I've got the laser collimator a few weeks ago (sure, that was my because my lack of skills - but thanks to the laser I don't have to worry about it anymore ) .

Enjoy your journey through the universe!

[leader of the starry skys]

i put a question on here a couple weeks ago about not being able to see Andromeda galaxy clearly , just being a smudge and other things being small , it is a big let down at first , we see pictures of Jupiter and Saturn and Andromeda so clearly , and when you pay around £200 quid plus for a scope, but when you think how far stuff is and loads of people don't get to see what we all see, I think we just have to accept , if you don't pay over £800 you will be limited , I was disappointed at first , but now accept and will enjoy many nights looking for new stuff, I saw comet lovejoy a few nights ago , and wait till Saturn comes , that was great seeing that,

[bombassa]

Hi

Regarding the astro-calculator you tried- remember to switch to 'visual view' (in red just above the 'objects menu' and pick an eyepiece.

Good luck with your scope. 

[Astrosurf]

@ Astrosurf: thanks for the tip!  I didn't realise the Canon T-Ring could be directly attached like that.  It might make it easier for eventual focussing on the camera.

Thought this might make it clearer. I'm not good at teaching! I'm sure it's in Steve's book but I can't remember!

[leelee970]

A laser collimator is good, but remember to check the collimation of the laser itself.

[bmontalto]

Hi Rihard, 

as for the laser collimator, I can see it's a very useful tool and a 4 minute video on youtube shows everything very clearly, making collimation seem to be a 2 minute process.  I'm looking at a cheaper laser collimator: Omegon Newton adjusting laser 1.25".  However there are more expensive ones from the Hotech brand.  Then there are the extremely expensive holographic laser collimators.  Which one do you have and what would you recommend?