Scope Critics....Sebens Worst Nightmare

[Stargazer_00]

The trouble is that pictures can be a deceptive way to reach conclusions on a scope. Look at the little fella below for example. Doesn't look much does it ?. Rather like a cheap bird jones type newtonian design in fact. It's actually a £5K Takahashi.

is it really? Link please!

found it myself. blimey . F2.9...

http://www.takahashi-europe.com/en/epsilon-180ED.specifications.php

in fairness though you use the picture and the price and the specification to make a decision you make a good point about not judging the book by its cover but the brand alone on this would make me think it was top shelf even if it is painted like a lemon

[DeepThought]

Seems to me that although I stated in my opening post (twice in fact) that advicing people of the general concensus is a good thing, many people have chosen to ignore this. Oh well, such is life.

Nobody is ignoring your point, all I originally did was try to contribute to the conversation.

The thing is, what you are saying seems to be coming across as a bit sanctimonious.

People have been reviewing kit and advising others on this site for years, certainly for longer than I have been a member, and to my knowledge nobody has ever complained that they were poorly advised.

Now suddenly it is being suggested that when advising against a piece of kit that is widely known to be of poorer quality, I should state my qualifications for giving that advice.

The thing I have always really liked about this forum is the inclusive nature of it, the fact we have people of all ages and abilities conversing as equals with nothing in common but a shared love of astronomy.

There is room here for everyone's opinion within reason, and I don't like the idea of some of us being more equal than others.

[Pig]

The trouble is that pictures can be a deceptive way to reach conclusions on a scope. Look at the little fella below for example. Doesn't look much does it ?. Rather like a cheap bird jones type newtonian design in fact. It's actually a £5K Takahashi.

Now that's what I call a rip off ---- of course I am only joking

[John]

Now that's what I call a rip off ---- of course I am only joking

As I've never even seen one outside a photo and certainly never used one, I'm in no position to comment !

[estwing]

think I've seen them for sale in lidl John

[Scott]

Nobody is ignoring your point, all I originally did was try to contribute to the conversation.

The thing is, what you are saying seems to be coming across as a bit sanctimonious.

People have been reviewing kit and advising others on this site for years, certainly for longer than I have been a member, and to my knowledge nobody has ever complained that they were poorly advised.

Now suddenly it is being suggested that when advising against a piece of kit that is widely known to be of poorer quality, I should state my qualifications for giving that advice.

The thing I have always really liked about this forum is the inclusive nature of it, the fact we have people of all ages and abilities conversing as equals with nothing in common but a shared love of astronomy.

There is room here for everyone's opinion within reason, and I don't like the idea of some of us being more equal than others.

the point I am trying to make (obviously without success) is that I or anyone else for that matter is not in a position to say a product is not fit for use without actually having known anyone who has used one. On the other hand I would be quite within my rights to point out that it's not a product recommended by many. How this could be viewed as sanctimonious is beyond me

[estwing]

.......

[DeepThought]

the point I am trying to make (obviously without success) is that I or anyone else for that matter is not in a position to say a product is not fit for use without actually having known anyone who has used one. On the other hand I would be quite within my rights to point out that it's not a product recommended by many. How this could be viewed as sanctimonious is beyond me

There are rumours that back in 2003, a disagreement between two people on a chinchilla breeding forum was resolved by one party admitting they were wrong and backing down.

It is the only known case of a forum disagreement being resolved in this way and many believe it to be an urban myth.

Based upon this, I'm going to walk away from this one and pursue my other hobby of reading old forum arguments I have been involved in and wondering what the point was.

[rowan46]

theres been a few people who have come on here over the years with sebens asking how to fix so and so generally they are given courteous advice on ways to improve it. those who carry on in the hobby often dump it and get a 200p. I agree that perhaps things get out of hand when people come on and say they intend to buy one. People in their zeal to help a person not to make a mistake perhaps overegg it. Nethertheless many of the reviews that come up with these scopes put them in the same class as department store scopes. I can't often remember the link for the reviews I have read when I try and dissuade people from buying them and as a rule I don't rubbish a scope when a person has bought one as it seems a little unkind to tell somebody who has just realised a childhood dream that they have bought a pig in a poke. I have never looked through a Seben either but I have read a fair few reviews by people who have. I will not be saying that it's a good scope regardless of the reviews and is worth taking a punt on. And neither do i feel the need to dilute my warning. there are good scopes out their which I have looked through and don't have the horror stories and reputation that seben scopes have and they do not cost much more than these scopes these I will continue to recommend over the seben which I haven't looked through. If somebody in future asks is this a good scope? and then links to a seben I will as I often do tell them that their are better scopes for the price and try and persuade them to reconsider. i don't consider it dishonest not to tell someone I have only read bad reviews except 1 but haven't looked and I do consider it at least neighbourly to try and help a fellow human being from making a bad mistake.

[John]

Good post rowan46

[rowan46]

I would just like to apologise for the spelling. I am not a great typist so I usually rely on spellcheck to catch any mistakes. Unfortunately I forget to enable it hence the semi literate prose

[Macavity]

I don't rubbish a scope when a person has bought one as it seems a little unkind to tell somebody who has just realised a childhood dream that they have bought a pig in a poke.

I would like to applaud the post too - And on the basis of the above alone?

Deep_Thought: Do stay and give opinions / impart wisdom / whatever?

I didn't sense that any criticism was *particularly* directed at you...

On internet forums being "largely ignored" is a fun skill to master?

[Pig]

Now the love is coming out this thread has had everything

[Stu]

Totally agree, from reading through all this, it just seems there is a simple mis-understanding.

Deep Thought, please don't be offended and walk away, that would be a sad and unnecessary outcome from the post.

Auspom is simply saying that if you offer advice, qualify it by saying whether you've used the kit or not. Your opinion is still valid and valued, in fact it will be valued more if people understand the basis for the contribution.

Example..... I sometimes recommend BST Explorer/Starguider eps to beginners, or the Heritage 130p. Have I used one ever? No. Do I state this? Yes. I simply say that they are highly regarded by people who have used them and are often recommended on the forum. It gives the poster information, allows me to contribute but keeps them informed of what I actually know.

Hope that makes sense?

Cheers

Stu

[Pig]

Text can very easy lead to misunderstandings, mainly due to the lack of tone or voice expression

I know I have been guilty of taking a post the wrong way and I am sure everyone has, but when all is said and done everyone on SGL are a good folk

[Scott]

Totally agree, from reading through all this, it just seems there is a simple mis-understanding.

Deep Thought, please don't be offended and walk away, that would be a sad and unnecessary outcome from the post.

Auspom is simply saying that if you offer advice, qualify it by saying whether you've used the kit or not. Your opinion is still valid and valued, in fact it will be valued more if people understand the basis for the contribution.

Example..... I sometimes recommend BST Explorer/Starguider eps to beginners, or the Heritage 130p. Have I used one ever? No. Do I state this? Yes. I simply say that they are highly regarded by people who have used them and are often recommended on the forum. It gives the poster information, allows me to contribute but keeps them informed of what I actually know.

Hope that makes sense?

Cheers

Stu

Stu, Thank you for adding a voice of reason to this thread..... I/We tend to get over defensive of our statements at times. There was certainly never meant to be any form of eletism(mainly because I wouldn't qualify anyway ). And yes, I think you've summed up what I intended to say rather more elequently than I've managed to do.

Text can very easy lead to misunderstandings, mainly due to the lack of tone or voice expression

I know I have been guilty of taking a post the wrong way and I am sure everyone has, but when all is said and done everyone on SGL are a good folk

I'm sure you're right Pig...even with the aid of emoticons posts can be misinterpreted and then of course It's human nature to be defensive of our opinions.

At the end of the day, I stand by my convictions, I just wish I could have voiced them as clearly as Stu has so kindly done for me.

[Stargazer_00]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Seben-Big-Boss-6-Inch-Telescope-And-Rings-Only-Pick-up-ST3-/261282968961?pt=UK_Photography_Telescopes&hash=item3cd5adb581

Anyone want a novelty Umbrella stand, £50?

[Scott]

http://www.ebay.co.u...=item3cd5adb581

Anyone want a novelty Umbrella stand, £50?

Sorry, but can you quantify your statement....have you actually used this umbrella stand?

Just to make things clear, I'm taking the mick out of myself here.

[John]

Totally agree, from reading through all this, it just seems there is a simple mis-understanding.

Deep Thought, please don't be offended and walk away, that would be a sad and unnecessary outcome from the post.

Auspom is simply saying that if you offer advice, qualify it by saying whether you've used the kit or not. Your opinion is still valid and valued, in fact it will be valued more if people understand the basis for the contribution.

Example..... I sometimes recommend BST Explorer/Starguider eps to beginners, or the Heritage 130p. Have I used one ever? No. Do I state this? Yes. I simply say that they are highly regarded by people who have used them and are often recommended on the forum. It gives the poster information, allows me to contribute but keeps them informed of what I actually know.

Hope that makes sense?

Cheers

Stu

Another good post in this thread Stu

I'm in a similar position. It's been a long time since I started in the hobby and it would be unhelpful to keep proposing the eyepieces that I use now to beginners so I keep an eye on good value for money stuff that's coming through and recommend those even thought I've not used them personally.

I think the real issues come when someone is trying to compare one item that they have not used with another, which they also have no experience of. Rather like Percy trying to compare blue things that he has never seen in Blackadder 1 :

As has been said, as long as comments are caveatted with whether or not they are based on personal experience or are relaying the experience of others, things should be fine. I often do see this happening on the forum

[JonnyP]

The trouble is that pictures can be a deceptive way to reach conclusions on a scope. Look at the little fella below for example. Doesn't look much does it ?. Rather like a cheap bird jones type newtonian design in fact. It's actually a £5K Takahashi.

Isn't there an old saying, something like, 'If it looks like a lemon, it must be a lemon'? Oh, hold on, that's not helpful is it?

Surely people are used to internet forums by now? Ask a technical question and there will always be a handful of replies from people who know nothing about the subject. I still don't understand what motivates these people but they're always there. The trick is to filter the rubbish out, of course.

[DeepThought]

Deep Thought, please don't be offended and walk away, that would be a sad and unnecessary outcome from the post.

I was only walking away from this thread, nothing more dramatic than that.

We all know what forum disagreements can be like, they never get resolved and always get blown completely out of proportion. I still feel I had a point (specifically that advice given freely and with the best of intentions should be gratefully received and not be subject to quality control standards and other threads criticising their manner). Maybe that point was missed, or maybe i'm just plain wrong.

I am now walking away... like this...

http://youtu.be/yUWgE0EVQ9c

[Adrian Condon]

Hi,

I have read all the comments in this thread.

I agree that it is usually easier to communicate face to face, as body language is an integral part

of communications.

In written comments I always try to see beyond the printed words, as I have actually met at star

parties a number of the participants in this forum and strangely they do have a sense of humour!!

As we are looking for an umbrella stand...... how about this one?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Metal-Umbrella-Stand-912-/230928710039?pt=UK_Storage&hash=item35c46c7997

Keep those comments coming...........

Cheers

Adrian

[Prador]

As we are looking for an umbrella stand...... how about this one?

http://www.ebay.co.u...=item35c46c7997

I quite like that one!

[misfit]

as a newcomer to scopes i was recently looking at all the scopes on offer and being on disability living allowance money is tight so i was looking at the seben scopes, now my take on this is that if enough people are saying that the scopes are a bad buy then wether they have owned then or not there must be something in it, so its down to the buyer to to do more investigating at then decide if they want to take the risk, i know i did.

amazon is a good place to start as the reviews tend to come from people who have bought the items, and then after more google searching of course i came here and decided after some good advice to get the skyliner dob even though

most of the reviews on the seben i read, even the posts on this site, the majority were worded in such a way that the posters did (in a roudabout way) mention wether they had owned the item or not

just my tuppence worth

[Stargazer_00]

I usually steer people well away from Amazon as a place to buy Astronomy kit as well. All you see on there is generally tat that's overpriced. (I know someone is going to link an Ethos eyepiece sold on Amazon and that's nto really my point so dont!). I'd advise someone to look at a proper astronomy dealer site, usually FLO because their prices are great and their customer service is second to none. They offer a wide range of affordable, high quality entry level equipment at an affordable price and back it up with fanatastic service and I'm sure after sales support (although I have never needed to ask them questions post sale personally). You wouldn't likely get this from an Amazon Marketplace seller and certainly not from Amazon themselves.

DISCLAIMER:

I can formally state that I have used Amazon personally and have real experience of it as a website and a purchasing option. I am not an Amazon Marketplace seller and therefore can not qualify my statement regarding pre or after sales support on astronomy equipment personally. I am relying on my own experiences purchasing items from other Amazon Marketplace sellers and assuming that any dealers selling low quality astronomy equipment at high prices (my opinion) is not likely to be very ethical and therefore will likely provide poor service post sale. This, of course, is a pun.