Lost in a sea of stars...

[Naemeth]

Now, I have actually observed quite a good portion of the Messier objects (50 at time of writing this), but all of these have been with the aid of a computer. I find it difficult to recognise most constellations apart from a few without (Bootes and Cassiopeia come to mind) and it certainly doesn't help when it comes to finding M objects. I often find my observing sessions mostly boil down to sweeping through star fields, and while it's lovely observing I don't feel like I'm getting anything done, and even if I try to find something without my computer (using Stellarium before going outside), I fail and just end up sweeping the sky.

What would be most helpful for me to do?

Buy a planisphere + red torch for observing

Draw (or find pre-drawn) the shapes the main constellations make and label the stars, memorise.

Buy a book (suggestions welcomed - I already have TLAO although I haven't made my way through it yet)

Buy a Telrad and use Telrad maps

Other.

Suggestions welcome .

[jetstream]

Hi Naemeth,I share your pain in finding objects!With the help of SGL it is getting much easier,thankfully.Learning the constellations is hugely important(to me anyway) as they are the maps of the sky.Once found,finding objects in and around them become much easier & the newly purchased S&T Pocket Sky Atlas is a must (thanks to all for the recommendation).I never realized how many constellations there were-I thought only of the "classic" ones.Now that I can recognize the Swan,the Veil is very easy to find,so I think the key is star group recognition.I will say this... I study the constellations before it gets too dark & too many stars out as it is easy to get "lost" looking up there! When searching I use as wide a FOV as possible to help locate objects and now I am practising finding them with narrower FOV's.Telrad(I use a RDF) is essential.Good luck Jonathan,if I can do it,so can you,that is for sure.

[Qualia]

Hiya Naemeth,

I'm not convinced you need to know a great number of constellations to find what you're looking for but I think it's a good idea to know a few of the most prominent ones and use these as your guides.

The way I work it in my head is to tell myself little stories, something like this: I know where Ursa Major is and from the leap, Polaris so by inference Ursa Minor. If I move to the east I find Cassiopeia (the queen) and I know above her is her faint and weak husband, Cepheus. In turn, Cassiopeia is pointing to her daughter, Andromeda who, for my story, rides Pegasus. From there I look about for the Summer Triangle and know that I now have Cygnus, Lyra and Aquila, and so on. Knowing these, when I look at my atlas I now can hunt about with relative ease. I guess I will never remember the constellation Sagitta, for example, but my atlas shows it below Cygnus, so I can start looking about for M 71 and so on.

When it comes to actually digging into those and other constellations I've found the following to be very useful, nay, essential:

Star Atlas

Right angled correct image viewfinder

Telrad or Rigel

I use these in conjunction, so I can star hop about without getting lost. I hope this has been of some help

[TractionMan]

I use a planisphere every now and then to try to learn more constellations. S&T Pocket Sky Atlas is great for this as well. Usually I try to learn (or repeat and remember) a couple of constellations while the scope is cooling down. To me it's fun to get to know some of the not so obvious ones such as Big Dipper, Orion, Cassiopeia and so on. Sometimes I get caught up in this activity that I forget to use the scope altogether.

[Moonshane]

as above. red dot finder, raci finder and star map. learn two things. summer triangle and winter triangle and this allows you to find other things easily. downloading/printing messier maps for sessions is a good idea too for those objects

[ollypenrice]

For your purposes the best thing since sliced bread would be The Photographic Atlas of the Stars. http://www.amazon.fr...d/dp/0750306548 I bought mine very cheaply at Astrofest and you could try ABE books if you didn't fancy the new price. This book has a classic star map on one page and, on the facing page, it has a photograph of the exact same part of the sky down to approximately visual magnitudes. There's nothing like it for doing your homework prior to going outside. Use the PC to get yourself orientated so you know to look for Pegasus in the east, say. Then study the photograph of Pegasus and the charts. You'll get the hang of working between charts and sky that way and fix the star patterns in your mind.

Many of our beginner guests have said they found the book a real boon. It gets plenty of use and I still love it.

Olly

[Stargazer_00]

To be honest I'd say go back to TLAO. It teaches you everything. You should work you way through it for an entire season in my opinion before using anything else. Sticking to this one font of knowledge will get the princinples in your head forever more. Try to get every target in the book that is visible from your location/s.

Put post it notes on the pages to indicate your successes.

In my opinion this book, followed well, is enough for everyone.

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

I started out with binoculars, and a book name "Astronomy with Binoculars" (now long since fallen apart with so much use). This had some good star charts, and descriptions of what to look out for in each constellation. I remember locating the summer triangle, and working out where the trapezium in Hercules was. I thought to myself: "if I am right, M13 should be just below that star there." I looked, and, bingo, there was a little fuzzy patch just above a pair of stars. That gave me such a sense of satisfaction, and completely hooked me on binocular astronomy. Once I had that "anchor" in the summer skies, I spread out more and more, finding Draco, Lacerta, Cassiopeia, Andromeda, Pegasus, and so forth, verifying each constellation by the objects I could spot in them. Binoculars are ideal in this approach. A RACI finder is also perfect for this, once you start reaching for fainter object in particular.

When visiting South Africa and Australia a few years back, I had to start more-or-less from scratch for the southern skies, but managed to expand nicely from a couple of obvious "anchors" (like Orion and Sirius, or the Southern Cross). Take your time, and study one patch at a time, and you will get there.

[Naemeth]

Thanks all, from your suggestions I've ordered:

S&T Pocket Atlas

Photographic Atlas of the Stars

Telrad

I will try and pick up a torch today and a red quality street wrapper so I can start reading stuff outside in the dark .

[RikM]

I also normally use S&T Pocket SKy Atlas, a Rigel QuikFinder and a 9x50 RACI optical finder.

The first book I got that really helped me was the Phillips Night Sky Atlas. Much like Olly's suggestion, only less detailed I suspect, this has a starmap on one page and a photo-like representation on the facing page.

For deciding what to look for/at, right now I am working my way through the SAC's 110 best of the NGC, available as a free PDF but I bought a nice A4 printed and ring bound copy from the Webb Deep-Sky Society.

[stevend]

I work in a similar way to Qualia, though without his story. Over the years I have learned certain constellations and find my way from there. Even though I have a GOTO scope I still make a point of knowing where it is pointed but lIke the OP I supplement it with Stellarium. I sometimes draw up sketches when looking for something different, like eg 3 Juno.

[Stargazer_00]

For me I get by knowing the major consetllations only. You can get by knowing only 3-5 on the zodiacal line in my opinion. Use those as reference points to find things in the S&T pocket atlas. For isntance this time of year (last few months actually) everything in the south is a jump from the Northern Cross or Summer Cross (I think that's what it's called?) or Hercules. I don't know any of the constellations around them but using then as a reference point I find the appopriate pages in S&T pocket telescope. Then it's simply a matter of finding the targets on the page. I usually pick a bright star on the page and put that in the finder first. Then go back to the book and look for nearby DSOs and just work out a hop route and go for it. I usually hop 4 or 5 stars at a time. So i'll snapshot the spot I'm at off the page (so I know what to look at in the finderscope) and then plot a route to go 3 to 4 stars towards my target. memorise that then go to the finderscope and do the action. Then I'll leave the finder and go back to the book, flash my memory or the previous hop and remember the next one, another 3 or 4 stars. Back to the finder... rinse and repeat until you're on your target. It's simple stuff really, if you have an eye for patterns and shapes and can store things visually in your mind's eye you'll have no problem.

I would recommend, as before, sticking with TLAO though.

[acey]

I'm not particularly good on constellations either, but still manage to find things. All you need to be able to do is identify one star in the sky with what's on your map, and hop from there. So the really important skill is map reading.

Suppose you want to visit someone's house and they tell you their address. You get a map that shows the street and wander up and down it, hoping to see your friend. Obviously this is not a good strategy - you want to get the exact door. Sweeping around for targets is like walking up and down the street. Fine if the target is big, bright and conspicuous (or your friend lives in a palace) but not good in general. With difficult DSOs the aim has to be sufficient accuracy to get the target centred in the main scope. This is only possible if your map is sufficiently detailed. The S&T Pocket Atlas and SkyAtlas 2000 are both excellent - I used the latter with my 8" for tracking down Messiers and Caldwells, and I use the former now for finding stars initially before moving to a more detailed map.

Whether to use a finder or telrad is purely personal choice - I use the supplied finder on my scope and it works for me. The important part is getting the map the right way round, and having a sense of scale. Some people make rings of wire or draw circles on transparencies corresponding to the field of view - personally I've always managed well enough without.

Getting the right orientation when using the finder is a case of pattern matching and sky sense (if you're looking due south then the map should be turned upside down). Orientation is easier when looking through the main scope at high power: the stars move across the field from east to west, and celestial north ("up" on a map) is defined so that west is on the right (not left!). Note that with a Newtonian the orientation of view in the finder and main scope are different (the view in the main scope is generally rotated with respect to the finder, because of the angle of the secondary).

I usually start by locating a naked eye star using the S&T Pocket Atlas. I centre it in the finder, then quickly check patterns around the star to make absolutely sure I've got the right one, and the right map orientation. To get the exact target position I use the main scope at low power and a more detailed map. I used Uranometria with the 8" and I now use Great Atlas Of The Sky with my 12". JR's free TriAtlas C does the same job though I prefer the big sheets of my Great Atlas. But that level of detail is only necessary if you're going for really faint stuff.

One more thing - the finder needs to be accurately aligned. On a Newtonian, the finder needs to be re-aligned every time the scope is collimated. I collimate my 12" every time I use it, so I also have to align the finder. To do this I use Polaris, which is far easier than aligning on a star that's moving across the sky. An alternative fixed target would be a distant streetlight, but at my observing site there are thankfully no lights.

[stevepeverall]

as above. red dot finder, raci finder and star map

I'd defo champion the merits of the red dot finder as well.

The method that I use is to decide which section of sky I'm going to observe and make a quick scetch of how the brightest most obvious stars appear to me in the night sky. This is an example is of a month or so ago when I was looking at Aquila and Sagitarius.

Then I go to Stellarium and/ or a sky atlas and draw the DSOs that are not visible to the naked eye on the sketch and use this to observe at the scope.

The reason why I find the rdf much easier to use than a finder is that you can triangulate and by that I mean form a specific shape triangle in your minds eye and form that in the sky with two stars that you can see and the invisible DSO that you can't. Even if you are a little bit out with the red dot it doesn't matter as if you use a low FL ep in the scope you know that the DSO is in the EPs field of view somewhere.

The advantage of drawing a quick sketch and using stellarium over that of a sky atlas at the scope is that you can triangulate using two bright stars that are say 40 or 50 degrees apart in the night sky where as you can't with the sky atlas as each page covers fewer degrees and the stars may be on separate pages. You therefore can't see the triangular relationship on the sky atlas.

I find this method is especially good on a poorer nights when only a few of the brighter stars are apparent in the sky and further apart.

[Stargazer_00]

For me a red dot finder or telrad only serves to put you on the first bright star of a hop. Then it has to be done in a magnified finder or a low power eyepiece. never thought they held much benefit really unless you use a raci.

[Naemeth]

Thanks everyone, certainly a lot to think about. You've all given great advice .

[AlexB67]

I wonder if you started having some difficulties since switching to the longer focal length 6 inch Dob from the heritage, just curious, and what your lowest power eyepiece widest angle is ? I can't say I have too much trouble. Sure, it can be tricky some nights for some target,s but charts or not, I don't think that would change once I know what I am looking for, and it comes down to the actual process of finding. I imagine if I had to use my 15mm as lowest power in combination with the RDF it would get more tricky. The Heritage does give > 2 degrees sky with the 25mm, so it is great for finding stuff I find, and I think that wide FOV does really help with that.

EDIT: I see you have the 32mm Plossl, so that would give say around 1.3 degrees if it is has 50 degrees apparent FOV in the 6 inch DOB? I'd say I like something wider in addition as well if I could have it. There I go encouraging you to buy more eyewear

Dunno how it is to use the finder on that DOB, I think I would prefer RDF and imagine a telrad would be nice from reading, not that I have one.

[Naemeth]

I wonder if you started having some difficulties since switching to the longer focal length 6 inch Dob from the heritage, just curious, and what your lowest power eyepiece widest angle is ? I can't say I have too much trouble. Sure, it can be tricky some nights for some target,s but charts or not, I don't think that would change once I know what I am looking for, and it comes down to the actual process of finding. I imagine if I had to use my 15mm as lowest power in combination with the RDF it would get more tricky. The Heritage does give > 2 degrees sky with the 25mm, so it is great for finding stuff I find, and I think that wide FOV does really help with that.

The trouble is mainly that my observing spot now has no glare, so my eyes can adapt to around 7mm exit pupil. I didn't want to lose this by bringing a laptop with me so decided to observe without. Since that was my main method for finding things, I find I'm stuck most of the time, even with the ED80 and 32mm TV plossl (2.67 degrees TFOV)

[AlexB67]

I see, so too many stars as you said not helping. I suppose I should have read the title a bit better. I wonder If I'll have trouble with that once I know what it is like to look at a really dark sky in a couple of weeks on my hols ( or clouds depending how that works out ). I will not be bringing a laptop but my parents got one at that house where I am staying, so I can resort to that if I need to. I'll bring some books with charts. Anyway, that'll be interesting. Perhaps I'll be lost in a sea of stars also

To date I have never used a chart or a laptop with me outside while observing, I always do the prep beforehand inside, so used to doing things that way. Though once I get down to the really harder to find things that will not be easy. Thus far it has not failed me on the Messier list, except a few nights around the teapot lost in LP and not enough ref stars, I wans't sure what was what and took a few night to clarify all that. I still have a few tentative assignment there. I've not been able to revisit it since, too low now in my garden, as well as a street lamp nearby.

[Matt Scunthorpe]

When using the EQ5 rather than goto. i use a Telrad, Telrad maps (printed and laminated) and a red torch. I find thats all i need. I do have an app on my phone that i will use on rare occasions though.

[Tinker1947]

A Telrad and Stellarium with the Telrad circles, a little bit of practice and finding the dimmest DSO that your scope will show soon becomes quite easy.

[jetstream]

Thanks everyone, certainly a lot to think about. You've all given great advice .

Naemeth,different paths can lead to the same place......you just have to figure out which one works for you...

[Moonshane]

helped me a lot too.

[andrew63]

For your purposes the best thing since sliced bread would be The Photographic Atlas of the Stars. http://www.amazon.fr...d/dp/0750306548 I bought mine very cheaply at Astrofest and you could try ABE books if you didn't fancy the new price. This book has a classic star map on one page and, on the facing page, it has a photograph of the exact same part of the sky down to approximately visual magnitudes. There's nothing like it for doing your homework prior to going outside. Use the PC to get yourself orientated so you know to look for Pegasus in the east, say. Then study the photograph of Pegasus and the charts. You'll get the hang of working between charts and sky that way and fix the star patterns in your mind.

Many of our beginner guests have said they found the book a real boon. It gets plenty of use and I still love it.

Olly

Thanks for this link - it looks a good guide for scanning the skies with binoculars.

andrew

[Watchman]

Im having a great deal of fun slowly learning the constellations and stars, I have zero prior knowledge (apart from being able to locate the plough lol) and initially struggled, especially in my light polluted area that washes out most of the sky...

This is the main reason I chose not to save up for a goto scope I wanted to learn it all for myself.