ASTRONOMY not ASTROLOGY_ AAARRGH

[Kenny_10_Bellys]

AAAARGGH! Here too? I ddin't think it possible. For an accurate potted history of astrology go to http://skepdic.com/astrolgy.html but in the meantime, stand back while I launch into skeptic mode...

[rant]Astrology is an ancient pseudoscience that means absolutely nothing, but did give the proper science of astronomy a boost in the very beginning thanks to so many people looking at the sky and trying to work out the courses of the 5 known planets. It has no predictive abilities at all, and other than gravity and light there are no long range influences known from planets. You need a scope to pick up much light and the position of the Doctor at your birth exerts more gravity on you than Jupiter, largest of the planets. So explain how it works?

You might not know but there are also 13 'houses' in the Zodiac, as explained above by the members, but people seem not to want to be Ophiuchans for some reason. How does that effect the outcome of readings? What about all the new planets discovered since the original 5, how were they incorporated with changing the future? What about when Sedna and the other large trans-neptunians were discovered a couple of years back, how did our futures change then? How did Plutos demotion effect the future? Any ideas?

How about this then, 6,000,000,000 people (approx) on the earth, 12 star signs. So that means roughly 500,000,000 people world-wide share a sign, which means all those diverse people also share the same personality traits and near future events. Really? Then why cant astrologers make any definite predictions which are easily verifiable? They predict the future every day, yet when tested they do no better than chance. How can that be? The short answer is, it cant. It's meaningless garbage.

I'm all for having an open mind, but not a foolish one. Astrology doesn't stand up to the most basic scrutiny, and simply holding on to a belief because it is old does not make it correct. It marks you as closed-minded in the extreme, in that you cannot examine your ideas and discard them when they prove wrong. Why would we base our modern lives on the ramblings of people with no education from the distant past, people who did not understand how weather worked and to whom wooden false teeth would have been science fiction?[/rant]

Astrology makes extraordinary claims, and that means they should provide extraordinary proof. They have none. Indeed you'd probably do yourself and us all a favour by never raising this nonsense again unless you obtain verifiable proof that it works, in which case I would direct you to www.jref.org where you will instantly win $1,000,000 dollars for proving paranormal powers exist.

[themos]

It does get a bit naughty when premium rate 'phone lines offer detailed "readings" at very high cost to gullible people as that's just robbery.

On the other hand, never give a sucker an even break.

Predicting the future is as unlikely as travelling faster than light, for exactly the same reasons. Its all based on the "arrow of time" concept really, so I for one don't accept predicting the future as possible.

yeah, but: Predicting the future is exactly what astronomers (and all scientists worth their salt) do!

I found this on google: Aquarius: Your Horoscope for July 20 , 2007 : "Freedom and go-getting are the words that could spring to mind today thanks to the fabulous Mars/ Uranus influence. Go with the flow, today and if any exciting or unusual opportunities arise during the course of the day then take them. You’ll be glad that you did!"

Well, why not??!! The influence is fabulous indeed!

Traditional Aquarian Traits : Friendly and humanitarian, Honest and loyal, Original and inventive, Independent and intellectual

On the dark side....: Intractable and contrary, Perverse and unpredictable, Unemotional and detached

I'm afraid to say that's too close for comfort...

[themos]

You might not know but there are also 13 'houses' in the Zodiac

13??? Burn the Heretic!

[iantobach]

anyone open to the idea of astrology should read derren browns book- it`s very good on the power of psychology and manipulating words in the right way.

astronomy did develop from astrology- but neurosurgery developed from trepanning, and i need that like a hole in the head!!!- sorry i`ll get my coat.

[Kenny_10_Bellys]

My favourite Viz headline of all time...

"Mystic Meg's a Witch! Burn her!"

[Jamie]

You can't dispute hard facts mate.

Well, hard facts couple of hundereds of years were that Earth was flat.

Thats just what uneducated folk thought back then so wasn't a hard fact.

Hard facts are when something has been proved without a shadow of a doubt

Oh and the earth being flat was DISPROVED and that IS a hard fact .

Trust me mate, you being a believer is one thing but trying to convince the rest of us

to be open minded about a subject that is clearly for the gullable at heart is something

completely different.

Nice try though...

[Akyra]

I get wound up all the time in work when I tell them my hobby is astronomy, they all ask "How's the training coming along?" and me being gullable asked "What training" and they replied "To be an astronaught". I dont even respond when they ask anymore, but have to admit I giggled the first time

[themos]

Just tell people that you are looking for UFOs and you'll be fine...

[daz]

Mystic Meg?

Septic Peg more like!

[James]

I've yet to meet an astrologer who can cope with precession and the fact that all the 'star signs' have moved on from where they were so that an Arien like me is in fact Piscean. I did once ask several people at school who didn't know my birthday what sign they thought I was and I got several saying Aries, several Pisces and one saying Sagittarius which wasn't that bad.

Astrology may have had some relevance many many years back when the time of year you were born determined your chances of survival, for example being born around harvest time would have been beneficial but beyond that I have to agree with Sir Patricks view as expressed in an earlier post...

[mpeniak]

It marks you as closed-minded in the extreme, in that you cannot examine your ideas and discard them when they prove wrong.

Please read my posts more carefully next time before you post! I am not saying I am an astrologer nor that I believe in astrology. I said I do not think it is nonsense because it has still some value, at least for me. Another thing I said was that people have not got the right idea about astrology, regardless to it's validity. This does not mean I believe in astrology nor that I am not able to discard my thoughts if they proved wrong.

So please be very cautious next time before you post offending stuff

Martin

[Jamie]

I am not saying I believe in astrology.

I said I do not think it is nonsense because it has still some value

I said was that people have not got the right idea about astrology

This does not mean I believe in astrology

Come on now please pick a side.

You either believe or you don't believe (which is it)?

Ok then what is the right idea about astrology that people don't get?

[Vega]

I think we need to work WITH this thing, not against it.

I dont think there will be many in the astronomy field who believe statements like "Saturn is moving in to constellation of Cancer indicating that your financial situation is going to drastically improve" [in a mysterious deep voice] or some tosh like that. . So true Maccers about them not handling changing constellations LOL.

Sorry for my bias view... it just all sounds a bit like 'Money grabbing hocus pocus' to me. I agree with KK that it is harmless but some ppl cash in on this stuff.

Vega

[mpeniak]

I am not saying I believe in astrology.

I said I do not think it is nonsense because it has still some value

I said was that people have not got the right idea about astrology

This does not mean I believe in astrology

Come on now please pick a side.

You either believe or you don't believe (which is it)?

Ok then what is the right idea about astrology that people don't get?

I read few astrology books when I was younger and therefore I was saying that it's something entirely different to magazine horoscopes. Most people have only seen these and such "horoscopes" do not represent what is the astrology about and this is what I meant by limited view, regardless whether the astrology has value or not. Right idea about astrology is not to think about it as a kind of daily horoscope you find in your spam but rather as a complete system, regardless it works or not.

Martin

[Cloudwatcher]

After extensive research and close study of all the information I could glean from numerous and diverse sources I have to say that there could well be case for astrological prediction. :study:

Using copies of charts and time scales etc. a prediction emerged that in my personal 'sphere of probability' the outlook was cloudy and I could expect a damping of the spirit.

'My Gob was Well Smacked'.

There is very low cloud here,it's tipping down and I'm feeling miserable!

Doubter beware! :roll:

Mystic Cloudwatcher

[iantobach]

as arthur c clarke said- " i don`t believe in astrology- that`s because i`m an aries and we`re skeptical!!"

ps- it`s a comman mistake to think that in medieval/ancient times people thought the world was flat- most learned people thought it was a globe- even the people at the time of colombus din`t believe the world was flat- it was romanticised later in the 19th/20th century and turned into fact.

[James]

I think what Martin is alluding to (?) is that astrology, as originally conceived/used or whatever was not meant to be a predictive ahem, science, ahem. Originally it was meant to provide general guidance as to the basic characteristics, strengths and weaknesses of people based on the position of the Sun, Moon & planets when they were born. It was never meant to be a predictive tool except in the broadest of senses and many of it proponents were merely latching onto patterns that seemed mysterious but weren't. Many of lifes events are cyclical in nature. Historically we tended to change our outlook on life around our 30th year (many of us still do). The ancients latched onto the fact that Saturn returns to the same spot every 29 years so they were basically linking a cause and effect that we now know isn't true. People always try to apply patterns to what they see and experience and the planets were probably as good as anything to explain things.

Of course, humans being human it didn't take long for people to put two and two together and get five and think hang on a mo, we can use this to predict next weeks lotto numbers (or whatever they had 3000 years ago). Then when those people discovered that others would pay for that information, however wrong, they were onto a winner.

To me astrology as it was originally intended is a failure in that lifes events are demonstrably not determined by the positions of the Sun, Moon and planets except in the broadest of senses. There was nothing intrinsically evil about the idea nor were its adherents bad people. We now know that the idea of predicting the future (or even the present) based on the positions of the planets is nonsense but there's a difference between those who are merely wrong and those who trade on human weakness by createing horoscopes in the papers or offering premium rate phone lines with detailed horoscopes... 'charlatan' is a nice word for them.

OK, nuff said by me... I'm off to see what Russell Grant says about today for Aries...

James

[barkis]

After extensive research and close study of all the information I could glean from numerous and diverse sources I have to say that there could well be case for astrological prediction. :study:

Using copies of charts and time scales etc. a prediction emerged that in my personal 'sphere of probability' the outlook was cloudy and I could expect a damping of the spirit.

'My Gob was Well Smacked'.

There is very low cloud here,it's tipping down and I'm feeling miserable!

Doubter beware! :roll:

Mystic Cloudwatcher

Let he who would declare happenings which have not yet happened, be aware, that burning at the stake is reinstated for those who would make the utterences of false prophecies. The to the devil's domain, shall he be cast. Never to roam the earth again in human form, but to darken the night skies, as a black shadow, that no light shall penetrate. And by this, render the astronomers eyes as blind to the jewels that abound in heavens domain.

Be warned he known as CW.

[lunator]

The

as arthur c clarke said- " i don`t believe in astrology- that`s because i`m an aries and we`re skeptical!!"

The only area that I can find astrology may be accurate is that I am a Sagittarian and was quite good at Archery when I was young.

[Cloudwatcher]

Never to roam the earth again in human form, but to darken the night skies, as a black shadow, that no light shall penetrate. And by this, render the astronomers eyes as blind to the jewels that abound in heavens domain.

Be warned he known as CW.

:laughing3:

CW

aka The Dark Nebula

[themos]

I dont think there will be many in the astronomy field who believe statements like "Saturn is moving in to constellation of Cancer indicating that your financial situation is going to drastically improve" [in a mysterious deep voice] or some tosh like that. .

What is quite ironic is that a statement like that is more likely to be true of stargazers than the general public. Look at Kaptain Klevtsov, for instance: Mars is moving into a favourable position and his financial situation got worse because he went and spent his money on a Siberian box of tricks! I can make the same prediction for most people here :-)

I think we need to work WITH this thing, not against it.

What I think I meant is that we need to use some psychology when confronting the issue. Just telling people that they are stupid is very gratifying but unlikely to improve matters.

[beamish]

Ahem, well blow me down with a feather, that got got a little heated didn't it! :shock:

[Cloudwatcher]

The two are not mutually exclusive. It all boils down to personal belief. Something science cannot cater for.

Newton,one of the greatest scientists of his day,was a believer in astrology. Even further back in time,Pythagoras,who, in circa 500BC, stated that the Sun and planets where spheres, doubtless believed the pantheon of Greek gods could exert control over humans. The same probably remained true a couple of centuries or so later when Eratosthenes measured the circumference of the Earth with considerable accuracy. Personal belief should not detract from their or anyone else's achievements.

It's not the diversity of belief that's the problem but misuse of belief by the unscrupulous.......Ho Hum.

CW

[Kenny_10_Bellys]

It marks you as closed-minded in the extreme, in that you cannot examine your ideas and discard them when they prove wrong.

Please read my posts more carefully next time before you post! I am not saying I am an astrologer nor that I believe in astrology. I said I do not think it is nonsense because it has still some value, at least for me. Another thing I said was that people have not got the right idea about astrology, regardless to it's validity. This does not mean I believe in astrology nor that I am not able to discard my thoughts if they proved wrong.

So please be very cautious next time before you post offending stuff

Martin

I dont find it a particularly offensive remark, it is an observation used in argument and nothing more. As for your sitting on the fence, you said the following...

Yes, I do not think is rubbish. Astrology was the begining. It is not about bringing proof to the masses but rather finding out yourself. I am not astrologer but I do know that people have very limited view about astrology because they see stupid horoscope in the magazine and they way of thinking about astrology is based on that. Even if someone gave the proof, someone would surely disprove it very quicky. For example there have been many exeriments to proof that telepathy exists, many of which had very very significant results. When the results were so significant that it would proof that telepathy exists scientists said that people doing the experiments were cheating. This happens often and not only with telepathy but also with OBE and so on and so on. So if some one does not believe, very often does not want to believe and there is no point in bringing any proofs.

This is classic stuff we see all the time in skeptic groups and forums, and only ever written by defenders of the faith, not logically minded people. There is absolutely no proof that astrology works, and the more you study it the more that fact becomes evident. Just because they invent a more complex form of nonsense doesn't make it any less useless than the rubbish I used to write for the local paper. Nonsense x 1000 is still nonsense. As for telepathy I also invite you to post links to the peer-reviewed, verified scientific tests which show it works. One or two groups have posted significant results, only for it to be shown that the testing was flawed in major ways and they were rightly dismissed out of hand. This is not because science is biased against cool stuff like telepathy, it's because the tests were done in such a way as to be useless.

I apologise right now to the rest of you here, magical nonsense like astrology, psychics and so forth are my pet hate. You can look at it as a harmless moneyspinner, but this sort of thinking leads to the dark ages and superstition and carries far too much weight for my liking. Right now faith healers are out there killing people, psychics taking thousands from the vulnerable and fundamentalists are out blowing up people who dont believe in thier particular imaginary friend. It's all the same superstitious thinking and it needs to be confronted at every opportunity.

[maroon bells]

Astrology never predicts events, it is more like the weather forecast in that it gives conditions. As humans we all have free will (well most of us). I suppose we are all like boats on the ocean, we choose the course we sail but the weather is always there making it easier or harder for us.