Astrofest-You can't please everyone

[GordonH]

I have been to Astrofest for the past 5 years and have enjoyed it every time, I think it is a great place to meet fellow astronomers and network with people. I have always helped out on the Widescreen Centre stand but I would like to stress that I do not work for Simon, I am a friend and very satisfied customer of his shop. I have read comments from people about how expensive they think he is and about wanting more discount from him and other dealers at the show. Ok, to the un educated, non business people the prices may seem high but do they bother to take into account the cost of renting premises for a business, hiring staff, insurance, the cost of stands at shows, etc. Would these same people be prepared to have their income reduced so other people could buy things at a rock bottom price? I suspect not.

There will always be price variations for the same products depending on the level of service and after care offered as well as whether you go to a shop where you can see the goods in the flesh or if you buy cheaper on the internet where you can't. Companies on the internet have less overheads so can offer the goods at cheaper prices, that is a fact of life nowadays.

Also from the moans and groans I have seen in some of threads about Astrofest I have come to the conclusion that there are some people who go there just so they can find something to complain about. As with the title of this thread, there are some people you just can't please

Best wishes

Gordon

[polydoros]

I totally agree.

Poly

[rowan46]

I didn't go to astrofest as I didn't have the spare cash and I agree that you can't please everyone all of the time. However I find it a little unfair of you to describe somebody as a moaner because they don't like the prices of your mate. Not everyone who goes to astrofest lives in London so some people who went spent a not inconsiderable sum to be there. It strikes me that people who spent money and time to go wanted to have a good time rather than moan. If they didn't have a good time they have reasons other than being miserable. I don't disagree with your post just your conclusions. You are of course entitled to your opinions just as others are entitled to theirs.

best wishes Rowan46

[ollypenrice]

I love Astrofest but I wouldn't want to see it as being all about shopping for bargains.

It is about astronomy. It's a show where you can see a lot of the gear in the flesh and this can inform your decisions about future purchases or you can just enjoy looking at a Plane Wave because it's a beautiful thing. It can be informative to talk to traders face to face, too. I won't be drawn on this but I can promise you that one crossed himself off my 'trustworthy' list straight away while others have been very impressive. You can meet other amateurs and ask professionals questions. The talks are brilliant. Not all, OK, but some are really memorable. Allan Chapman, obviously, but many others as well.

I sympathize with Gordon's post because selling astronomy equipment is not the way to a quick buck. Although I don't do it, I know that it really isn't and I think Gordon's loyalty to Simon is born of very decent instincts. We do need those retailers, after all.

Oh, and the stands are expensive. I've asked and it's a no hoper for me, sadly, though I'd love to have one!

Olly

The stands are very expensive (I've asked and it's out of the question for me!)

[Kai]

I would say that the people complaining at the prices need to remember that they are comparing the prices to the Online websites where the margins are low already due to competition 24/7 ,to cut prices further would mean that they are selling below a price they can afford.

[GordonH]

I didn't go to astrofest as I didn't have the spare cash and I agree that you can't please everyone all of the time. However I find it a little unfair of you to describe somebody as a moaner because they don't like the prices of your mate. Not everyone who goes to astrofest lives in London so some people who went spent a not inconsiderable sum to be there. It strikes me that people who spent money and time to go wanted to have a good time rather than moan. If they didn't have a good time they have reasons other than being miserable. I don't disagree with your post just your conclusions. You are of course entitled to your opinions just as others are entitled to theirs.

best wishes Rowan46

I'm not saying that everyone complains or moans, but, there is a small percentage who do and it's the same sort of gripes every year. I'm not just making reference to moans about Simon because he is a friend of mine, there was also criticism made about Bernard (a well respected trader) because he wasn't prepared to split a package to sell a small part of it. If you go to the motor show and you see a Ferrari Scaglietti and you like the gear stick knob you wouldn't expect the sales person to take it off and sell it to you without the car so why should it be any different for Astrofest, ok so Bernard may not have had the individual part with him but I'm sure he could have got it sent quickly. Traders spend a lot of time deciding and planning what to bring to best represent what they do and they can't bring everything. There is a lot of hard work and effort made by all the traders and organizers in putting together Astrofest. I also saw comments about disappointment at not being as many traders, this is because of cost but it is also clear in the magazines and website long before the event who is going to be there so people know what to expect before they get there.

Without quoting directly there was also a comment about the number of universities present and something to the effect of 'why so many and who wants a degree anyway' as previously mentioned here, Astrofest is not just a trade show, it is about Astronomy and there are people who want to learn and consider getting a degree.

On a last note following Olly's comment about wanting a stand but not being able to afford the expense, that is a real shame because that would be a worth while stand

Best wishes

Gordon

[Mark at Beaufort]

I totally agree with your views Gordon. I have been going to Astrofest for years and each time I book a hotel and stay one or two nights just so I can experience the total astronomy event and be relaxed not having to travel on the day.

This year I again really enjoyed the event. I spent some time discussing solar scopes with German staff running the Lunt stand as well as a very knowlegeable guy on the Widescreen Centre stand. Was able to chat with David Nagler about his EPs even though I have two Ethos and 3 Nagler EPs and told him I just was interested in viewing the new Delos EP - he was so interesting and helpful. I had other involved conversations about mounts and refractors from the many stands at the show.

In the afternoon I attended the lectures. Brilliant and so informative.

So Astrofest is not just about trying to get a bargain its a whole event.

Finally, I was able to meet up with any friends that I have made through the SGL website. Will I spend the money again driving the 250 mile return journey, staying overnight with the Hotel expense - yes I will.

Mark

[GordonH]

I totally agree with your views Gordon. I have been going to Astrofest for years and each time I book a hotel and stay one or two nights just so I can experience the total astronomy event and be relaxed not having to travel on the day.

This year I again really enjoyed the event. I spent some time discussing solar scopes with German staff running the Lunt stand as well as a very knowlegeable guy on the Widescreen Centre stand. Was able to chat with David Nagler about his EPs even though I have two Ethos and 3 Nagler EPs and told him I just was interested in viewing the new Delos EP - he was so interesting and helpful. I had other involved conversations about mounts and refractors from the many stands at the show.

In the afternoon I attended the lectures. Brilliant and so informative.

So Astrofest is not just about trying to get a bargain its a whole event.

Finally, I was able to meet up with any friends that I have made through the SGL website. Will I spend the money again driving the 250 mile return journey, staying overnight with the Hotel expense - yes I will.

Mark

I'm glad you mentioned David Nagler, both he and Sandra are great people, they were at Astrofest last year and at Kelling and it is a long way to come over for such events but they both said they thoroughly enjoyed it, even David commented to me that he had a really interesting time talking (via writing) with some people from the 'deaf astronomers and that he found that and the networking in general very rewarding. My last night at Kelling last year was very memorable and consisted of going out for a meal with David, Sandra, Simon and his family and then after going back to David's chalet and sharing a whole bottle of malt with him and then we went out observing till 4am with a Televue 127, my Nagler 31, Ethos 17 and numerous other TV eye pieces.....what a night and a great guy

Best wishes

Gordon

[rowan46]

Gordon I apologise for the flippant remark about "your mate" it was unkind and was written in a moment of irk. I have already said I agree with the majority of your post. Regularly post's are written about the price of gear and regularly someone has to explain the difference between high street shops and internet only, so believe me I get your point and agree. I am not one of those who agree with the "rip off britain" conspiracy theories on astrogear pricing but I do think that a person who didn't like something. Didn't like it. I really don't think that people spend all that money to go to astrofest just so that they can moan. I honestly don't think that people are that perverse and to suggest that of people who moan is a little unkind. The people who are moaning felt a little let down they shouldn't be labelled as moaners who will not be pleased by anything. I draw my own conclusions on the expectations of people who were unhappy but it's not that they went there to have an excuse to moan. Many people enjoyed it some didn't. c'est la vie.

[canuck]

Astrofest is a handful...not only for the organizers, but the exhibitors themselves. I don't believe the exhibition is intended to be a car boot sale (Kelling Heath often seems to fill this role), rather a product showcase where you should be able to see, touch and compare any product you wish, and in this I think Astrofest succeeds pretty well. Expecting mouth-watering, dream products to be at rock-bottom/bargain prices is a nice thought, but it's just not realistic.

In attending the North East Astronomy Forum in New York last year, I got a chance to compare Astrofest to what I felt was going to be the ultimate Astronomy show, and while it was much different, I can't say that it was significantly better than Astrofest. NEAF is on a huge scale, in a simply enormous building, into which I was able to drive the car straight in to my stand to unload! I had space to stretch out and spread out displays, where space at Astrofest is tight. Attendance was slightly higher at NEAF as I understand it, but the place is soooo big, it never feels busy, and the second day is utterly tomb-like. Astrofest (for all its' faults), is bustling, busy & social and has a real buzz about it.

London transport isn't perfect, but I got from Wimbledon to High St. Ken. in 25 minutes both mornings...although perhaps that's simply because I'm used to it?

Gordon is right, Astrofest will never please everyone, but it's a show that UK Astronomy should embrace, as despite any shortcomings it may have, it's an excellent example of its' type.

[FrankieValley]

What is a hobby to me is a business and a living to my suppliers. As I said before, in the thread that prompted this one, I think they work very hard to keep us lot supplied. We have a good choice of suppliers for most items and then there are some 'niche' items that only one or two suppliers will have and we may just have to be patient to get our hands on such things. There is a reason why Primark, etc don't sell astro gear and that is 'demand'.

[FLO]

I have been to Astrofest for the past 5 years and have enjoyed it every time, I think it is a great place to meet fellow astronomers and network with people. I have always helped out on the Widescreen Centre stand but I would like to stress that I do not work for Simon, I am a friend and very satisfied customer of his shop.

With respect Gordon you cannot play both sides. You routinely work/help as a salesman on the Widescreen stand so are not unbiased.

Anyhow, I don't think the Widescreen Centre need defending. From what I have seen they put on one of the best stands/displays at whatever venue they attend. Even at Kelling (I cringe when I see some of the others) they always display desirable kit and convey a sense of professionalism that is sadly lacking in UK astro retail.

Yes, they are more expensive than some astro retailers, but for good reason: They run a showroom and have some prestigious brands. They are also located in an affluent part of London where, I imagine, most of their visitors are well heeled.

Companies on the internet have less overheads so can offer the goods at cheaper prices, that is a fact of life nowadays.

It is a myth that online retail has low overheads. Granted there are some astro retailers trading from a bedroom or garden shed who do enjoy low overheads but to do online retail 'properly' is expensive! There are five people on FLO's payroll operating from a fair sized unit on a modern business estate. Then there is the stock, the website, helpdesk and the countless other overheads. As one of only a handful of properly setup astro retailers I understand and sympathise with the Widescreen Centre's point of view.

The real reason there were so few deals and promotions offered at Astrofest is that dealer margins are not large enough to support them. UK astro retail is over saturated and under managed. Take Celestron, for example. In the US they have appointed 39x US dealers. Coincidently Celestron's UK distributer has also appointed 39x UK dealers. The US population is 5x larger than ours so US dealer have 5x more customers! Skywatcher have 270x UK dealers...! I've done the maths, it's depressing! This sorry situation appears to be unique to the UK, our neighbours in Germany for example also benefit from less competition and a larger customer base.

Here in the UK the price for astro gear is set by whoever is prepared to (or desperate enough to) run a box-shifting operation. "So what" some might say "it means low prices". But those same people in their next breath will complain about the lack of discounts or promotions...

Good astronomy retailers want to promote astronomy, to bring new products to the market and to support, attend or host out-reach events. And they want to offer truly outstanding service. All this is frustratingly difficult on box-shifter margins.

Now, before anyone gets the wrong impression, FLO is fine. In each of our five years we have grown and made a modest profit. Indeed we are moving into a larger unit 1st march. But, I feel it important that people understand this has been achieved against the odds. Those few dealers who want to do more than shift boxes deserve your support.

I'll get off my soap-box now

Steve

[NGC404]

Excellent write up FLO

Dont know if I should say this, but I,m one of the 39 (tho I,m careful not to advertise it here)

I do run a retail outlet, and visit the odd show/club.

Though I dont stock a huge range, customers still have a chance to "touchy feely" before they buy.

Yet you,d be amazed at how many would like me to beat internet

only sellers prices though.

Saying that, I,ve a great set of local lads that stand by me

I think of pricing like a fish and chip shop

You pay cheap and take away (some internet only sellers)

Or

You pay that little extra and get a personal service in the cafe.

I like to think I offer the personal service and advice, and many

buyers are happy to pay the extra for this.

I,m also an active astronomer. So to an extent can see things

from the other side of the table.

Agreed with the margins. They certainly dont allow the discounting many customers would like

[malc-c]

I'm not just making reference to moans about Simon because he is a friend of mine, there was also criticism made about Bernard (a well respected trader) because he wasn't prepared to split a package to sell a small part of it. If you go to the motor show and you see a Ferrari Scaglietti and you like the gear stick knob you wouldn't expect the sales person to take it off and sell it to you without the car so why should it be any different for Astrofest, ok so Bernard may not have had the individual part with him but I'm sure he could have got it sent quickly.

Gordon

Twist the knife why don't you. Stop speaking out of your backside ! Your example is not in the same context - If the finder-guider was a standard commercial item I I wouldn't of expected him to of split it. BUT its not - ITS SOMETHING HE COBBLED TOGETHER !! He took a standard QHY5 camera, he took a STOCK Skywatcher finder and coupled them together with one of his adapters that he sells as a single item. FYI Bernard also commented that they are NOT QUICK TO OBTAIN so it wouldn't be as simple as ordering one from his web site either - YOU WERE NOT PRIVY TO THE CONVERSATION SO PLEASE STOP POSTING **** THAT YOU HAVE NO FACT ON WHICH TO BASE IT.

Yes I had a disappointing day - This is a PUBLIC forum for us to post our views and experiences on, providing they are factual and don't go against the rules. This was my account of the experience I had and my views on the event. - My comments on pricing and bargains was based on my first Astrofest of the previous year, which sadly this years event didn't live up to.

[GordonH]

With respect Gordon you cannot play both sides. You routinely work/help as a salesman on the Widescreen stand so are not unbiased.

Irrespective of whether I help out on Widescreen's stand or not I am still entitled to express my view as I see it from both sides, both as an attendee which I have done and as an assistant on one of the stands and from the comments I have heard and read I still stand by what I said

Companies on the internet have less overheads so can offer the goods at cheaper prices, that is a fact of life nowadays.

As you can see from my comment, I didn't say that internet companies have 'low' overheads, I said they had less and if you have an internet company that doesn't need premises in an expensive location or a number of staff to run a shop then their overheads will be lower than an equivalent business with a shop and staff to run it

Best wishes

Gordon

[GordonH]

Twist the knife why don't you. Stop speaking out of your backside ! Your example is not in the same context - If the finder-guider was a standard commercial item I I wouldn't of expected him to of split it. BUT its not - ITS SOMETHING HE COBBLED TOGETHER !! He took a standard QHY5 camera, he took a STOCK Skywatcher finder and coupled them together with one of his adapters that he sells as a single item. FYI Bernard also commented that they are NOT QUICK TO OBTAIN so it wouldn't be as simple as ordering one from his web site either - YOU WERE NOT PRIVY TO THE CONVERSATION SO PLEASE STOP POSTING **** THAT YOU HAVE NO FACT ON WHICH TO BASE IT.

Yes I had a disappointing day - This is a PUBLIC forum for us to post our views and experiences on, providing they are factual and don't go against the rules. This was my account of the experience I had and my views on the event. - My comments on pricing and bargains was based on my first Astrofest of the previous year, which sadly this years event didn't live up to.

Obviously there is a huge price difference in the example I gave but the principle is fairly similar so I don't think it is out of context (people are free to disagree if they wish).

As this is an open forum for members and any comments that I used from another thread as an example were not in any way private or confidential then people should be free to comment on them. At least I have made my comments regarding this topic in a civil and polite manner, unlike the insulting and rude manner portrayed in the comments quoted above

Best wishes

Gordon

[Beulah]

Please can this continue via PM.

Thanks.