Celestron 4SE for a newbie instead Skyliner 200p?

[brianmc]

Looking to get a telescope for Christmas with a budget of £300 max. I'm a newbie and am looking forward to observing more than photography to begin with. I also have 2 children aged 7 and 9 and would like to get them interested and hopefully inspired.

I've googled and read around this site a lot and I'm looking out for a copy of 'Turn Left at Orion' and I'll be borrowing my Dad's binoculars to try and learn the skies a bit in the next few weeks. It seems the most common advice to people in my position is to go for the Skyliner 200p and that is the way I'm leaning at the moment.

I've just had some second thoughts though at the prospect of getting a second hand Celestron 4se, particularly in terms of the GOTO capabilities which might be better for getting the kids enthused.

I haven't been able to find any direct comparisons between these 2 scopes and wondered if anyone could offer any guidance. Thanks.

[kniclander]

[ersonally, I am not a fan of goto but if you have kids something that tracks (which might be goto too) is definitely a big plus. With the dob the kids will find it hard to keep the object in the FOV. having said that in terms of the views, there's a big big difference between a 4inch scope and an 8 inch scope.

[paulastro]

To set up the goto on these scopes is not trouble free, and they are not that reliable. A 6 or 8 inch dob will have you up and running instantly, no set up - just point and look. Also the images will be far superior in any of these dobs. I wouldn't worry too much about having diffiuclty in moving a dob to keep something in view, with some practice it becomes second nature, even at higher magnifications. Also, if you go for a dob, consider the size of the two dobs, the six inch will be much easier to carry in and out, and easier for your kids to move about the sky.

Finally, if there is a local society which has observing nights close by, get along and try a few scopes out.

The best of luck to you.

[hemihaggis]

well im biased towards a goto , a 127 mak wouyld be a great choice , but slighly out your price range .. once you get the hang of alignment the scope will help you and your kids find the stuff they read about in books , the pics will not be all colurful pics you see from nasa , but with a little imagination ........ have a look at for sale boards on here once you have 50 posts

[brianmc]

Thanks for the advice, I am a little concerned by the whole collimation thing, especially after reading Astro Babys Guide to Collimation. As I understand it the Celestron (not sure about the 127 mak mentioned by hemihaggis) wouldn't need collimation, is that right? OTOH I'd be looking at second hand for these scopes which would be another concern as there seems to be a lot more to go wrong.

Still leaning to Skyliner 200p, but more worried about collimation process than I was after reading the above article.

[Damo636]

I bring my 4 year old (almost 5) out with me now that it is dark earlier and he is getting to grips surprisingly quickly with my 8'' dob. Obviously i have to supervise and he needs to stand on a box to view anything near the zenith but he loves it. I wouldn't rule out the dob in favor of goto completely as the bigger scope will give both you and your kids a much more rewarding experience imo.

Edit: Collimation is a simple process that will only take a matter of minutes with practice. The 200p holds collimation really well and rarely needs tweaking unless fairly roughly handled.

[brianmc]

Thanks for the collimation reassurance Damo636. Did you have good collimation out of the box?

[John]

Collimation is needed with newtonian scopes on a reasonably regular basis to ensure that they are performing at their best. I make some fine adjustments to mine each time I use it but that only takes a few minutes. It's nothing to be feared any more than checking and topping up the oil and water in a car or making small tuning adjustments to a guitar before playing it.

An 8" scope captures 400% more light than a 4" one which translates into a very substantial additional performance potential on all astro objects. Well worth the very small maintenance overhead that is collimation, in my opinion.

[jimmyjamjoejoe]

The Dob will gather more light, and give more resolution on planets etc. It takes no setup, just the cooling time (which the mak needs too). The 127 mak is just a slightly bigger version of the 4se, infact it is skywatchers equivalent of the 5se. Mak is short for Maksutov, which is a type of telescope design (kind of a cross between refractor and reflector), the 4se is a maksutov too. The extra inch will make a lot of difference on the 127/5se.

Bottom line is, the dob will provide better views, and will be capable of wider fields of view, and ultimately will be better for DSOs. The mak, with it's longer focal length will be more tolerant of cheap eyepieces and its narrower field of view is less suited to DSOs and more toward planetary.

In terms of how you'd rate them for dso/planetary it'd be around 60/40 for the dob, and 30/70 for the mak respectively.

So i guess you gotta think about what you'l be looking at most. Personally, i think the dob is a better choice, it's as close to an all rounder as you can get. Goto is nice at first, even though it has it's drawbacks, but learning your way around the sky is all part of the charm. It isn't too tough either, just pick a constellation thats around at a reasonable time, and pick 2-3 interesting targets within it to memorize for the night.

Trust me, after you've found them once you'l never forget where they are, and after a week or so of clear nights, you'l have several constellations and LOTS of targets under your belt.

Took me 2 sessions to learn to find the north star, the double cluster, andromeda, casseopia, pliaedes, orion, pegasus, cygnus, lyra, and the ring nebula among other things. It has given me a greater sense of direction at night, and it's interesting to see the way planets and the moon moves against the stars you are familiar with, i've become way more familiar with the way lunar cycles work, not just the waxing/waning, but the position in the sky, the way it rises an hour later each night etc. All of which i'd never have noticed unless i had learned the 2-3 constellations that i had.

Either scope will show you amazing things and you certainly won't be disappointed with either, but in terms of quality views, and a learning experience, i'd go with the dob. The mak will be relatively easy to use, though setting up goto can be a pain.

[sabana]

I'd advise the Dobsonian any day for young childern. Its as simple as it gets for observational astronomy. No electronics. No external power supply cables. Children enjoy tactile things. And the Dob will need plenty of this. Wheras the celestron nexstar is hands off mostly. So half the fun is gone.

[sunshine185]

Hi, been out observing with my 10 year old daughter, first with the mak, then with the 200p, she lost interest pretty quickly with the mak, but with the dob she thinks its great, i can sit down with the binos while she just slews the dob about wherever she wants. As for views, the moon looked great in both scopes, jupiter i would say the dob had the upper hand visually, but the mak wins out because of the tracking capability, however, for the rest of the sky, the dob wins hands down. Viewing was with standard 10mm and 25mm ep's. We found some sort of star cluster with the dob that just filled the ep with stars, it wasn't m45 but dont know what it was.if i had to make a choice between the 2 scopes, then without question i would choose the dob. (and so would my daughter!)

[Damo636]

Thanks for the collimation reassurance Damo636. Did you have good collimation out of the box?

From memory i think the primary needed a little tweak. I was dubious when buying the dob for the same reasons as yourself but honestly, its really easy and routine once you perform it a few times.

[Dave Dubya]

Either/or. Both telescopes have their benefits. As long as you're using them regularly, learning the night sky and having some fun, you should be able to get the best out of them.

[Luke]

If it was mainly the moon and planets you wanted to look at then for me the 4SE might edge it for its ability to keep the target in the field of view automatically.

But if you want to look at the various amazing things in the sky such as faint galaxies, I personally would go for the 200P, which has about 4 times more light gathering power than the 4SE, which is a very big difference when it comes to observing the fainter objects.

Things would be roughly about 4 times dimmer in the SE at the same magnification, so if you are looking at faint objects, this does make a difference as you can imagine. It's not a problem with moon or planets as they are bright anway.

As already said, all scopes have their benefits.

[Capricorn]

You are asking for a comparison on 2 scopes that are about as far apart as you can get.

The Dob will ultimately allow you to see more. The drawback being that your kids will have to learn how to use it, you cannot realistically point it at something then swap over. Any movement will cause whatever it was pointed at to disappear. This includes a change of focus owing to different eyes.

The 4SE is no where near to the size of a 200mm, and you do have to align it. It is not automatic and tales of dispair are many. After the dispair it is usually silence as the person realises the simple error they made and decides to tell no-one.

Owing to the goto ability and that once aligned and operating the object will remain in view long enough for everyone to take a turn I would suggest the 4SE. It is the tracking and the taking turns to look that wins out in my opinion.

[smudgeball]

Hi there

My daughter is 5 and she enjoys looking through my 6 SE.

As long as you realise what those two scopes are capable of you'll be ok.

I think I'm right in saying that collimation of a Mak is more difficult than a SCT ?? (due to the fixed secondary) I could be wrong there ?

With good alignment, I can currently keep Jupiter in the middle of my eyepiece and it will stay there. Yes I've had the "don't tell anyone" moments with my scope but on the whole it's a fantastic bit of kit.

The "witchcraft" of SkyAlign still amazes me...... how do they do that ??

But I'm obviously a fully paid up member of the GOTO club

(don't let those pesky Dob owners tell you to get the 200P )

But seriously you'll enjoy either.

Regards

Neil

[Ags]

The 4SE is great for observing Jupiter, Saturn and the Moon. You even get nice views of a few DSOs, like the Orion Nebula, M13, M37 and so on. I have found it easy to share with young children.

[twotter]

I had my 200P dob for 18 months before I decided it needed collimating. Using one of these Astro Engineering AC656 Colli-Mate Deluxe eyepiece for collimating Newtonian and other telescopes it took about 15 minutes, and only the primary mirror needed a couple of quarter turns to the adjustment bolts. It's much easier to do than it is to explain

Andy's Shot Glass has a great video Collimating a Newtonian

[Orion_the_Hunter]

I also would advise the Dob. Kids will enjoy and learn from finding stuff themselves as opposed to not really learning anything and getting bored of just looking at things which the Goto has found.

Once you've collimated the 'scope once, it's easy. 2 minute job.

You will be able to find/see a lot more with the Dob.

It's very easy to use. Have a look at what I wrote in the link below.

http://stargazerslounge.com/member-equipment-reviews/132996-skywatcher-skyliner-200p-8-dob.html

[brianmc]

Thank you all for your thoughts. Orion_the_hunter yours was one of the reviews that got me thinking of the 200p in the first place (noted your initial collimation problems).

I think my tentative plan is: order the 200p after pay day (hope that doesn't jinx pay day), then sneak it out of the garage as much as I can, while the kids are in bed, between it arriving and Christmas , then amaze everyone with my new fond knowledge of the crisp clear Christmas skies.

Sorry that's probably jinxed the yule tide weather.

I'm sure I'll be back with other questions once it's arrived.

[badboybubby]

I own a mak127 goto and don't regret buying it.

I've already dabbled in some webcam photography and produced a reasonably good picture of Jupiter....

I think a scope that tracks is a must especially if u fancy taking some piccies...

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk

[onesmallstep]

Hi

My first scope was a GOTO but I was too busy learning how to use the thing to actually do any stargazing. I sold that on and now have the Skyliner 200P purchased second hand from an SGL member. I have only used it a few times but am very impressed with the views on a variety of targets.

HTH!