Laser pointers

[661-pete]

so if you just want an argument and to continue this thread ,go ahead ..

It takes two to prolong an argument! :)

We've had several threads on this topic, over the years, and I think that previously I've come down on the "yes, ban 'em" side of the argument. Now, having given it some more thought (I'm allowed to change my mind, I'm not a politician! ), I'm not going to say either "ban 'em" or "don't ban 'em".

But I think the drift of politics and public opinion will inevitably lead to a ban, some time. Remember this is seen as an aviation menace, and remember how strongly the authorites react when it's aviation under threat! After all, I'm still not allowed to take a bottle of water on a plane, however silly I think that rule is: I just have to go along with the rules (*sigh*).

[jimmyjamjoejoe]

Then why don't we remove highbeams from cars? There are a large number of people with them, but there are some people who don't remember to turn them down when coming towards you, this can be dazzling and dangerous so we should remove them all just to be safe. I mean, people got around fine without them before didn't they?

[Space Bat]

Then why don't we remove highbeams from cars? There are a large number of people with them, but there are some people who don't remember to turn them down when coming towards you, this can be dazzling and dangerous so we should remove them all just to be safe. I mean, people got around fine without them before didn't they?

I presume its because perhaps the other driver wasn't having his eyes peeled on final approach coming round base looking for something that shouldn't be in the pattern or got in trouble in the pattern - hitting something and killing himself and over 300 passengers??

But equally people with highbeams - don't appreciate the dangers they may be doing by not taking care and consideration of other road users.

[PeterW]

I would avoid giving them too many column inches, otherwise you might just increase the risk of copy cats seeing what would happen. Science fiction means people believe lasers can cut things.... Which probably helps drive the trade in the eye hazardous green pointers. The low power ones work fine for astronomy any more power is just asking for accidents.

Used correctly these things are invaluable for astronomy, both for personal and group use, but apply common sense.

Cheers

Peterw, long time professional laser user and owner of 2 still apparently functioning eyeballs.

[rabbithutch]

I presume its because perhaps the other driver wasn't having his eyes peeled on final approach coming round base looking for something that shouldn't be in the pattern or got in trouble in the pattern - hitting something and killing himself and over 300 passengers??

But equally people with highbeams - don't appreciate the dangers they may be doing by not taking care and consideration of other road users.

Please advise me of one credible incidence in which a laser contributed to the death of an airline passenger.

[Space Bat]

Please advise me of one credible incidence in which a laser contributed to the death of an airline passenger.

Try reading DOT/FAA/AM-06/28 - not an answer to your question you obviously know the answer to...

I think there are 4 suspected downed liners killing over 600 passangers where no evidence has been sufficient to attribute to light source impairment for reasons of the crash - and only a suspected conclusion in the face of no other plausible evidence.

I suppose for some people they actually do need to read the reports in the news of a crashed airliner just to get self satisfaction they were wrong rather than listen to an educated view.

Perhaps re read what I said in answering the car headlights analogy ....

[Alma]

Personally I agree - they should stop flying so many planes over the country to reduce the risks. They are far too damaging to the environment and are taken for granted as cheap transport.

That's a perfctly valid viewpoint and one I don't necessarily disagree with, even though I make my living from the things!

[Alma]

i undersand right from wrong alma , sorry, but are you just contining this thread for the sake of it , ...

so if you just want an argument and to continue this thread ,go ahead .. on the otherhand if like most people on here you belive individuals can exercise common sense , then drop it we all know where the problem lies

OK, this will be my last post on the subject as I think we've probably covered the ground sufficiently and I never wanted to be the Jeremiah sitting at the far end of the opinion spectrum anyway.

My real point here I guess, Hemihaggis, was that simply sticking a laser pointer on a telescope and calling oursleves astronomers isn't going to hack it as far as Joe public and the legislators are concerned. The hazards to aviation from these things are genuine and I think at some point in the future we will need to PROVE that we are responsible.

I suggested a voluntary code of practice elsewhere on SGL perhaps by registering as a legitimate user through an astronomical society and signing up to some best practices on the purchase, use, storage and disposal of laser pointers and I still think that's a good idea. My concern is that the E.U. (or Big Brother, if you like) is going to impose blanket legislation before before we have a chance to make a valid justification for amateur astonomy use.

Sorry if you disagree Hemihaggis, but I think this has been a valid and I hope useful debate.

[jimmyjamjoejoe]

APOD: 2001 April 25 - Space Laser Creates Artificial Star

I wouldn't want to cop an eyeful of that!

[rabbithutch]

Try reading DOT/FAA/AM-06/28 - not an answer to your question you obviously know the answer to...

I think there are 4 suspected downed liners killing over 600 passengers where no evidence has been sufficient to attribute to light source impairment for reasons of the crash - and only a suspected conclusion in the face of no other plausible evidence.

I suppose for some people they actually do need to read the reports in the news of a crashed airliner just to get self satisfaction they were wrong rather than listen to an educated view.

Perhaps re read what I said in answering the car headlights analogy ....

I skim read the report. I might have missed something; however, I gleaned from it that only 3 incidents of possible laser illumination were found in the metastudy results. No injury was caused by any of these three. The vast majority of the accidents and injuries (these terms have specific meaning within the piece) reported were from bad airport lighting. I think the cited report is hardly credible evidence. It investigated the record of accidents reported in the period 1978 to 2005 (US FAA) and 1982 to 2005 (US NTSB) and found only 58 reports out of the millions of flight events that took place during that period. Only 3 reports out of those millions of events might possibly have been due to laser illumination!

To characterize the threat from lasers as endangering thousands (or even hundreds) of lives is a bit over the top, in my opinion; and the evidence I've seen simply does not support it. But, then again, I accept very little of what I hear reported on faith and question the motives of those who report (and more especially those who provide the information reported). I think this points out that the industry is swallowing a camel and gagging on a gnat. As to expecting one to accept that 600 have died due to an attributed cause (without evidence) in the absence of proof, I think makes my point about overreaction.

Find the yobs who use the lasers to light up aircraft and beat them repeatedly, publicly, with whipping canes from Singapore. Beat them until their skin peels off, but leave law abiding citizens alone unless and until you have a smoking gun, please. If a laser ever causes a single death - with no other possible contributing factor - I'll be happy to be the sole member of the firing squad that executes the miscreant who did it. (Yes, as an American, I believe in capital punishment and believe that it is used to sparingly. If that makes me bloodthirsty savage in your eyes, I understand but I do not accept that label.)

I have no doubt that in some places the misuse of laser pointers has caused 'problems' - meaning that an aircraft passenger or operator was annoyed and temporarily visually disabled by the laser beam. I know of no report or study that is credible that places the blame for accident (damage to aircraft) or injury (harm causing treatment and recovery time) and none resulting in mortal injury.

Perhaps the use of laser pointers is a much greater problem in the UK. I realize that all of the UK would easily fit within the borders of Texas and not nearly fill all the area. We don't have the population density, perhaps; but we have 2 of the worlds busiest airports (DFW and Houston) and many very heavily trafficked ones (Austin, San Antonio, El Paso, Lubbock, Midland/Odessa, Amarillo).

Finally, understand that my statements are not in defense of laser pointers and especially not in defense of those who would light aircraft with them. My position is solely that of one who believes that individual liberties are too precious to allow the whinging of a few - a few who have no proof of harm - to limit the liberties of the law abiding many. To simply roll over and allow government to ban these devices would mean disavowing everything that my American ancestors fought to build and maintain over the last 400 years and my English ancestors for 400 years before that.

[JimStan]

Great post, Bob ! You said it better than anyone else!

Someone mentioned those bright high beams on automobiles. Lets make them illegal, and get them off the cars. Oh and how about eliminating cars themselves? Do you have any idea how many people get killed, or at least badly injured by automobiles each year ?

Kitchen knives are dangerous. ELIMINATE THEM ! Don't want ANYBODY getting hurt by the improper use of a kitchen knife !

Electricity, don't allow that anywhere NEAR a house, any more. Do you know how many houses, have been burned to the ground due to fires started by electrical wiring? And the families living in them. How many have died of suffocation due to smoke inhalation? No more electricity, and for that matter, no more FIRES, either. THEY are DANGEROUS !

Do I have to go on, or have I made my point ?

[Space Bat]

My apologies - I may have over exaggerated things

Apparently in 2010 the FAA only have reported and I mean its too paltry to even mention the figure...so I am quite ashamed to even mention the number of reported incidents of lasers pointed at aircraft....

So the number 2,800 reported cases....

So its not even worth worrying about and am sure you are happy to fly knowing that this number is on the increase year on year...

perhaps you too can be a statistic after all you dodged being attacked by a kitchen knife

[Alma]

Kitchen knives are dangerous. ELIMINATE THEM ! Don't want ANYBODY getting hurt by the improper use of a kitchen knife !

Funny old thing really, but the folks behind 9/11 managed to hijack those planes with nothing more than humble box cutters (that's Stanley Knives to us Brits). And they got away with it because uber-libertarians like you guys wouldn't allow your government to impose even basic security measures on domestic flights. Perhaps you think over 3,000 lives was worth it? Sorry Hemihaggis, broke my promise - won't do it again. I think it really IS time to wrap up this thread before some of us get banned.

[cathalferris]

One problem with registering ourselves as owners of laser pointers in an effort to be responsible, means that whoever on that list is in the area of an alleged illumination incident, they will be the first to be interrogated, and will be viewed as guilty until proven innocent, as posession and motive are already in place (admitting to having one, and admitting to pointing them into the skies).

It's a careful track that we must tread.

[cathalferris]

I own two laser pointers, ~5mW @ 532nm running from 2x AAA betteries each. Fantastic tool for outreach and helping people understand field of view and what I'm pointing the scopes at. However, living within 10km of a major international airport (with frequest flights by US marines coming through to and from Iraq/Afghanistan) means that I've got to be oh-so-careful with planes in the vicinity. Planes on approach are sometimes silent until they're really close. Must keep eyes peeled when pointing the laser up.

[Space Bat]

Yup - as mil planes sometimes if not in commercial traffic lanes often don't operate nav lights in favour of IR illumination....

[Jessun]

If every person on this planet was a keen amateur astronomer and astro photographer, then these lasers would be banned as serious light polluters.

Makes me wonder why anyone today who is enjoying this field of interest would want to put a beam of any kind to the sky...

/Jessun

[laser_jock99]

Will people please not post ill-informed nonsense on subjects they clearly know nothing about, i.e. aviation and air safety. As a consultant with more than 35 years experience in the field of airline operations, I can tell you that green lasers are a new, serious and growing problem for aviation. Doesn't matter whether it's helicopters, civil airliners or military - pilots the world over are up in arms over the things. There's obviously some good amateur astronomy practice out there judging by some of the posts here; perhaps we need to develop that into a voluntary code of practice. What do you think?

I have 25+ years experience in the field of real lasers (including 10 years as Laser Safety Officer for two of the UK's biggest indsustrial laser companies) and I can tell you quite catagorically that even one ours would have trouble 'blinding' a pilot from the ground. Over the last few years I have read a huge amount of nonsense about laser pointers. No pilot is going to get blinded by a laser pointer- your have stick you face directly in front of an industrial laser to do that.

[Jessun]

Spent 20 years flying and am blinded on a weekly basis. Sure, not for a long time but long enough to be more than a little bit annoying. This will typically happen on approach to an airport at around 1000 to 3000 feet and head on...

Don't see any reason for anyone private to own a high power laser.

/Jessun

[Space Bat]

I have 25+ years experience in the field of real lasers (including 10 years as Laser Safety Officer for two of the UK's biggest indsustrial laser companies) and I can tell you quite catagorically that even one ours would have trouble 'blinding' a pilot from the ground. Over the last few years I have read a huge amount of nonsense about laser pointers. No pilot is going to get blinded by a laser pointer- you have stick you face directly in front of an industrial laser to do that.

Oh dear - perhaps you have misunderstood the terminology in the comment - I don't think for a minute anyone were suggesting a blinding experience - however the term used as a temporary syndrome just like I shone a 100watt torch in your eyes for a few seconds...

You would not have full functionality of your eyes - depth of vision and would loosely be called blinded...not literally :)

So yes a pilot can be blinded.....in the terms Alma was using

[laser_jock99]

Spent 20 years flying and am blinded on a weekly basis. Sure, not for a long time but long enough to be more than a little bit annoying. This will typically happen on approach to an airport at around 1000 to 3000 feet and head on...

Don't see any reason for anyone private to own a high power laser.

/Jessun

Anoyance is somewhat different from exposure to high power laser beams with the ability to do real damage. I have been in the unfortunate position of taking engineers to hospital with suspected retinal damage- though, thankfully, during my watch nobody recieved any permanent eye injury.

I fully take your point though- it can't be very helpfull having bright green flashes in the eye when trying to land a plane.

My point is though- you can't use the term blinded so literaly. Temporarly dazzeled maybe?

Edit- yes 5mW is enough for any pointing application. The guide lasers we use are typically less than 5mW.

[Space Bat]

OOOOOooppps

BBC News - Laser pointers 'pose danger to eyes'

Obviously didn't have 25years experience to call from

[laser_jock99]

OOOOOooppps

BBC News - Laser pointers 'pose danger to eyes'

Obviously didn't have 25years experience to call from

Darwin award?

[Alma]

I have 25+ years experience in the field of real lasers (including 10 years as Laser Safety Officer for two of the UK's biggest indsustrial laser companies) and I can tell you quite catagorically that even one ours would have trouble 'blinding' a pilot from the ground. Over the last few years I have read a huge amount of nonsense about laser pointers. No pilot is going to get blinded by a laser pointer- your have stick you face directly in front of an industrial laser to do that.

I think if you read this thread properly you'll see that I have NEVER used the word "blinding", so please don't misquote me.

Nobody is suggesting that green laser pointers cause actual "blinding". Distraction and glare, sometimes with an after image, are the most common complaints made by pilots. For some ridiculous reason they think that it's important not to experience these things during critical phases of flight such as approach, landing and take-off.

[Jessun]

Dazzled, blinded, I suppose you could grade it in various ways, but the environment for a pilot needs to be understood;

We're talking night time here so we can safely assume the pilots are somewhat tired, the cockpit lights are very very dim to be able to make out ground features and the job involves landing in sometimes demanding conditions on a runway that may not be lit up the way you'd hope! Now a green laser hits your eyes and you are collecting more photons in an instant than a fat Mak could only dream of during a 10 min sub, and then you ask your eyes to rapidly adjust back to dark vision and to read your instruments of which all important ones are - yes - green. You have 60 seconds before touchdown. At this stage you can not autoland i.e. let the autopilot land due to the way that needs to be prepared and setup - and how the whole airport has to be in so called Low Visibility Procedures to make it legal and even if you wanted to then the various lights and symbols on your screens that tell you what the autopilot is doing are naturally green too.

It's just a far cry from a lit up environment without important green information you need to follow haha

Got beamed again today in France...

/Jessun