Laser pointers

[andyc277]

I didnt realise this topic would cause so much comment

[haitch]

To what altitude? If unlimted then, given the rotation of the Earth and it's precesion, you'd end up owning a considerable chunck of the universe!

Course the same would be true of everyone else... one for the lawyers!

I'd be happy with the edge of the atmosphere but I'd go for the heliosphere first off expecting to be haggled down.

You'd only own each part for a short while until it passed over though.

[haitch]

It's a nice thought however the airspace above us is tightly regulated and in essence it's the Goverment who own it. They make the rules over what you can and can't do with it and they're entitled to charge for the privilege. C'est la vie!

I'll bet anyone who's ever suffered injury or damage from blue ice or experienced an aircraft crash would beg to differ. I rather think the government are bullied into accepting the view of commerce on most issues anyhow.

Reminds me of that little issue recently of the UARS satellite making an uncontrolled return to Earth... put up there by a government without a care for the consequences of "what goes up must come down".

[haitch]

I didnt realise this topic would cause so much comment

You'd be surprised - an admin made a test post recently and asked people not to respond to it... the replies ran to 7 pages!!!

[JimStan]

Dihydrogen-Monoxide too ! I think they ought to ban the use of Dihydrogen-Monoxide ! ! ! Do you realize how MANY people have DIED as a result of injesting that deadly material ??? Why, it staggers the imagination ! When it fills your lungs, you are a DEAD MAN !

Jim S.

[rabbithutch]

Yeah! That stuff is very dangerous! It'll rust nails!

I've heard tell there's some brave souls who drink it, but I'll stick with good single malt from Scotland.

[Alma]

I rather think the government are bullied into accepting the view of commerce on most issues anyhow.

.

I think on this last point you're probable right and governments in Europe will yield to pressure from the aviation lobby.

I see this from both sides of the fence and what I perceive in ultra stark contrast is the nice, easy going, laissez faire attitude of amateur astronomers on the one hand – the sort of people who wouldn’t dream of shining a laser at an aircraft and don’t see why for them to use one should ever be a problem, against the considerable wrath of the international aviation lobby on the other for whom ANY potential laser hazard should be eliminated. I think we know who's going to win that one!

If we're lucky the needs of amateur astronomers might be taken into account in future legislation and we won't be bracketed with the toe rags who deliberately shine lasers at aircraft and generate the bad publicity. The Americans at least made some allowance for responsible use; we might not be so lucky.

[Alma]

Dihydrogen-Monoxide too ! I think they ought to ban the use of Dihydrogen-Monoxide ! ! ! Do you realize how MANY people have DIED as a result of injesting that deadly material ??? Why, it staggers the imagination ! When it fills your lungs, you are a DEAD MAN !

Jim S.

If you guys over there can arrange a War on DM, us humble Yurpeans over here would appreciate it - we have clouds of the stuff hovering over our heads most of the time and it screws up our observing. By the way, I bought a very expensive DM protection device in Alabama last year with a dubious "Made in America" sticker and it broke the first time I opened it. I want my money back!

[rabbithutch]

I'm not an aviation safety expert - nor do I play one on TV.

I want someone in the airline industry to film what actually occurs in the cockpit of an airliner when a laser pointer strikes it and show us the result. Don't get me wrong. I don't want to endanger any passenger or crew member, but I equally don't want to swallow a camel and gag on a gnat.

It seems to me that it would be damned near impossible to shine a laser light into the cockpit of a commercial aircraft at full altitude in level flight. Perhaps, though, the beam spreads out at 5 or 6 miles and creates a dispersed green or red glow in the cabin. If so, I want to see the effects of it. Seems an easy enough experiment to conduct on one of the test flights done without passengers.

As for takeoff and landing, I believe that a laser beam might be dangerous for pilots; but I have some doubt that there is any disruption of flight unless the pilots over react. I say this because virtually all passenger jets use full automation for landings and take offs - pilots don't actually control the aircraft then. Even so, I think visual evidence should be obtained and shown to the public.

Yes, I realize that millions of miles are flown in smaller, commuter aircraft which do not employ automation and do not fly at such altitudes. I would like to have visual evidence - taken during test flights without passengers - of the effects on them, too.

Perhaps this would put an end to the discussion. My suspicion is that laser lights are not much more than an annoyance for pilots and that the airline industry is erring on the side of caution to protect passengers. In either case, I am not against their approach but I would like to see real evidence and not just the opinions of those affected. Of course, I wouldn't want any pilot on an aircraft I was traveling in to be annoyed nor would I want to make its flight one whit less safe.

As we say here in the States, "I'm from Missouri. Show me!"

[andyc277]

The main issue is focused around helicopters and military aircraft generally flying below 3000ft. Shining a very intense light, inadvertantly or not, into the eyes of a pilot can cause disorientation and short term loss of focus, similar to switching a light on after being in the dark for several hours. This distraction can cause potentially fatal results, imagine a Tornado GR4 travelling at 500mph at 250ft above the ground, the disorientated pilot has seconds to react. I know this is only one specfic example but it demonstrates the possibilities.

Rabbithutch, i completely agree that it would be interesting to see the results.

[rabbithutch]

One could argue that the nature of being human means that one will be distracted. The corollary to that is that the distraction will occur at the worst possible time. This probably happens in the types of aircraft you describe - helicopters, military jets, etc - constantly. I know several retired pilots of both fixed and rotary wing aircraft who have spoken of distractions. Any many instances they reported to me that the distractions were caused by flight crew members rather than outside forces.

Another argument is that there should be no aircraft flying for commercial or military purposes that would be adversely affected by momentary distractions - that there should be systems to ensure that they are not catastrophic. Most helicopters and fighter aircraft have fly-by-wire software that augments and replaces a pilot's control. So, do lasers adversely affect this? Show us!

One must seriously question whether an enemy combatant would ever be deterred from employing laser beams - even ones of much greater intensity than those discussed here - against helicopters and military jets. In fact one must assume that will be the case and those systems should have developed shields and pilot aids to counteract their effect. It is difficult to believe that they have not done so; ergo why all the fuss about civilian lasers?

These questions are not meant to say that there might not be reason to ban them or severely curtail their use, but I say that there must be evidence of harm proved by legitimate, independent observation - not just the whinging of a select few.

Again, I'm from Missouri.

[Alma]

Rabbithutch, this video was produced by the FAA a couple of years ago and is intended for both civil and military pilots.

Laser Pointer Safety - FAA/Air Force "Aircraft Laser Illumination" video

There's also much apocryphal evidence from pilots who've experienced laser incidents - I've posted this link before elsewhere on SGL but I'll repeat it here. It's from a well known Professional Pilots forum called PPRUNE and this particular thread contains 29 pages of posts covering 3 years.

L@sers attacks on Aircraft - PPRuNe Forums

You will note that most of the calls for action are in favour of a total ban on the importation, sale and use of laser pointers. Your Government has already taken action and I believe has taken reasonable account of the wishes of amateur astronomers by allowing usage of pointers up to 5mw. If we're lucky, our Government will copy your lead, but I fear we will be bracketed with the yobbos who cause all the problems and end up with a total ban as is the case in parts of Australia.

Can I also respectfully point out that the oft repeated line that fully automated landings and take-offs are the norm for civil airliners these days is complete nonsense. Aircraft have aids such as auto thrust management, braking, spoiler deployment, etc. available to them but trust me, pilots are fully hands-on during landings and take offs.

Finally (god, I sound like Victor Meldrew!.. don't ask) regarding you point about enemy combatants, I understand from a friend who is a former RAF pilot, that miltary pilots in Afghanistan have an excellent defence against lasers - they open fire the second they're on the receiving end of a laser beam. That's because it's more likely the device is fitted to a rocket launcher than a telescope. I know civil airline pilots who have the same fear when illuminated by a laser, and not just when they're landing at airports in the Middle East.

Hope this helps. Like I say, I see this from both sides of the fence.

[rabbithutch]

Thank you for the links, Alma!

As I said in another post and repeat here, I would never intentionally point a laser at an aircraft in operation - EVER!

I'm still a bit skeptical about the airline industry aversion and public outcry against these devices. I am a great believer in individual liberty that stretches to taking liberties away from only those who abuse a privilege, not everyone who enjoys it. I would give extremely long sentences to anyone convicted of laser lighting an aircraft. The problem, of course, is that apprehension is almost impossible.

As an American who owns guns and enjoys their use for sport and for personal protection, I hold that it is the person and not the device that must be held accountable. Politicians are too likely to take freedoms away from the many based on pressure from very small special interest groups. I resist every attempt I can.

Do you know whether or not any aircraft accidents have been caused by laser pointers? If so, I'd like to read about them.

Your post was very informative and useful. Thank you, again.

[Ptarmigan]

Finally (god, I sound like Victor Meldrew!.. don't ask) ,,,, that miltary pilots in Afghanistan have an excellent defence against lasers - they open fire the second they're on the receiving end of a laser beam.

LOL! In humour, as you raise Victor from the dead and in the spirit of our overseas friends who use firearms rather than the state ( is that political or satirical ? mods please delete if I overstep the bounds of humour) to protect themselves, should we not give commercial and other pilots the same rights as their Afgan associates and leave reasonable responsible astronomers alone !

(if you think I have a tongue in my cheek, you may be right )

[Alma]

Thanks Rabbithutch, I respect your call for the protection of liberties and placing the onus of responsibility on the individual - couldn't agree more. I think there's a big difference between the wide open spaces of the Texas and where we live - an overcrowded island with some of the busiest airspace in the World and way too many airports for our own good (the London area now has six!). That has an impact on government policy, I believe and produces stronger pressures to legislate. Unfortunately, hooligan laser incidents over here are rife as they are in many parts of the World and we will all suffer as a result. This was one of the first stories I read on the BBC website this morning.

BBC News - Slough teen arrested over laser shone at helicopter

The kid will get a mild sentence if convicted and aviators will complain the courts are being over lenient. All very predictable.

I'm not aware of any accidents where lasers have been cited as a contributory cause but there are stories of landing approaches being abandoned and in one case I read of an air ambulance being forced to abandon a rescue mission because of a laser attack. In any case, where safety is concerned, the aviation industry takes the approach that prevention is better than cure and works to eliminate the possibilty of an accident happening rather than wait to take remedial action after the event (please folks, let's not have a debate on that one!).

[Alma]

......should we not give commercial and other pilots the same rights as their Afgan associates and leave reasonable responsible astronomers alone !

(if you think I have a tongue in my cheek, you may be right )

I have this mental image of Ryanair & Easyjet dog fights over my house! Actually, that would be quite entertaining.

[Ptarmigan]

I have this mental image of Ryanair & Easyjet dog fights over my house! Actually, that would be quite entertaining.

Lol! Falls about clutching sides,,,yes it would but ,,

but I dont think I could afford their incidental (/supplemental) charges to view

[Alma]

Can I also respectfully point out that the oft repeated line that fully automated landings and take-offs are the norm for civil airliners these days is complete nonsense.

Actually, reading this again I realise I've overstated the point... so before any actual pilots come on-line and complain, yes, the modern generation of airliners are perfectly capable of fully automatic approach and landing, however that doesn't obviate the requirement for pilots to monitor the approach and take over from the autopilot if things go wrong. I think that's what I meant by "hands-on". Apologies.

[haitch]

In any case, where safety is concerned, the aviation industry takes the approach that prevention is better than cure and works to eliminate the possibilty of an accident happening rather than wait to take remedial action after the event (please folks, let's not have a debate on that one!).

Personally I agree - they should stop flying so many planes over the country to reduce the risks. They are far too damaging to the environment and are taken for granted as cheap transport.

[hemihaggis]

so anyway , back on topic , what is wrong with responsible use of laser pointers ? .

[Alma]

so anyway , back on topic , what is wrong with responsible use of laser pointers ? .

Nothing. But your idea of responsible might not be someone else's as our friends in Oz found out - not much sympathy for stargazers there.

[661-pete]

I think, useful as these devices are, we'll end up having to 'go without' and just accept it. I suppose if I'd ever used one or owned on myself (I haven't), I'd find it harder. Just something one has to accept. Lots of things we have to go without because of the idiotic behaviour of a minority of yobs.

There are times when I'd like to have a flick-knife* in my pocket. Or at least: a small folding knife that can be opened with one hand. Not to use as a weapon! Just for when I want to cut something without letting go of the thing I want to cut. There are times. Of course, such devices have been illegal in the UK since the 1950s, I have never possessed one, and don't intend to try! You get my point?

Hmmm.... am I about to be reported to the Police, after having made this post?

*"Switchblade" in US-speak

[rabbithutch]

Actually, reading this again I realise I've overstated the point... so before any actual pilots come on-line and complain, yes, the modern generation of airliners are perfectly capable of fully automatic approach and landing, however that doesn't obviate the requirement for pilots to monitor the approach and take over from the autopilot if things go wrong. I think that's what I meant by "hands-on". Apologies.

Given that a landing is nothing more than a controlled crash, I quite understand why pilots monitor what the computers are doing so very closely.

[hemihaggis]

Nothing. But your idea of responsible might not be someone else's as our friends in Oz found out - not much sympathy for stargazers there.

i undersand right from wrong alma , sorry, but are you just contining this thread for the sake of it , we all know stupid people will do stupid things , but like most people on here i am quite capable of using a laser pointer without endangering a passing aircraft . people dont like being patronised , or told by big brother what to do especially when they are more than capable of exercising commonsense .

so if you just want an argument and to continue this thread ,go ahead .. on the otherhand if like most people on here you belive individuals can exercise common sense , then drop it we all know where the problem lies

[Space Bat]

Holy cow - just seen this.....

The threats of lasers to pilots is real and is incredibly dangerous...

To the point that I would say they should be banned....

problem is that yes the majority of people would act sensibly and not endanger peoples lives...but sadly you could throw that argument at gun ownership.

People sadly are speaking with a level of ignorance when they suggest it cant strike a high altitude plane - or would have any effects through the high windows....etc even showing a cockpit as if that has any justification to their argument.

Planes commercial or otherwise have varying degrees of angles that the window elements can be - and remember light laws of reflections and refractions of glass?? and yes travelling straight and having a level horizon at 37K feet may not be such a factor...

But planes bank and pitch the plane at various stages within a flight for numerous reasons...

Commercial pilots unless at cruise will have to be on the lookout for various fixed and rotor wing traffic that may not be on the radar so to speak -

And ppl's are more vulnerable....and have to have 8 pairs of eyes at all times....

While I would like people to take a common sense approach to the usage of lasers....and think twice and understand the dangers of pointing them up to the heavens......

Sadly the stupid few have shown the real possibility of causing countless deaths of innocent people -

And to be honest you don't really need one do you...people were pointing at stars and planets with fingers and showing people their locations for centuries without trouble...