wesdon1

On 13/11/2023 at 10:01, Simone_DB said:

Hello, after a weekend of reading, doing some activity and accomplishing nothing, this morning I woke up with the dilemma about wether hassle you all once again. Jokes aside, since I suppose you all remember how difficult this thing is at first, you understand how I need a "push" to get past the first hurdles. While I was working, 1.62x10^5 questions came to my mind. I selected a few (all the following questions concern DSOs):

- Light, Bias, Dark and flat frames (so far, I've read this article):

     1) Light frames, as I get it, are the RAW shots. Am I suppose to get visually individual good shots, or can I use longer exposures to save clicks even if results are withishier? Should I keep my ISO low, since I have to stack a lot of shots? Should I use NR reduction on long exp (this in particular is important because it doubles exp times).

     2) Can dark frames be shot just with the (capped) camera? They must match the ISO and exp settings of the lights, so I can make a set a library for different settings that I can use (almost) indefinitely, but the important thing is that they must be shot at the same temperature of the shooting site. Is all that right?

     3) To take Flat frames I can put a white shirt on the telescope with a light source above it, and take shots that match light frames exp, but they have the histogram quite centered. Sky shots often have the histogram crammed on the left side, so how I achive that? I read that the camera orientation matters, hence do I take them every session or I find a way to align the camera always the same?

 4) I've got no particular doubts on Biases. Same temperature and ISO as lights, fast shots. Can they be taken with the capped camera?

- Software: I lived a nightmare. I tried to use Siril, but without light, daks, etc. it's useless. I've tried to download and use some scripts that should allow its use without said files (just to practice), but no luck. So let's just leave it for now. I then tried to use Lightroom together with photoshop, but when I try to export them in the latter, LR says that it failed because "photosop wouldn't open" (same using panorama, photoshop levels or whatever). Is it a common issue? Dispite the message, in a couple of occasion it succeded in creating new frames in LR, but I probably don't know how to use it or they're just too bad. They are some 25 frames of Alnitak surroundings taken at 800 ISO (maybe too much), 13'' exp with NR on long exp on. I hoped, not too much actually,  to see a glimpse of nebulas, but no luck.

I understand those are quite a bunch of questions, and I'm aware enciclopedias were written about what I'm asking, but while I study, if someone wants to comment, share advices, point me to a direction, seen what I have done so far, I'd be immensely grateful. Consider that, for frustration, I ate a lot of spaghetti, played a lot my mandolin and gesticulated a lot more than usual, which denotes a stressful condition for an italian.

Thank you!

 

 

@Simone_DB Hi again Simone. My friend, I don't have time to go into detail, as there is a lot to answer here, but i'll do my best! One big issue that stands out to me is you say you used NR for Lights? If yes, DON'T. All the NR is done in post processing with Photoshop, Lightroom or whichever astro-processing software you choose to use! ( as a side note, I too found Siril a headache to use, so I gave up eventually! I use Photoshop now! ) Plus, the NR settings will potentially negatively affect your ability to manipulate/process the light frames in post processing ( it might actually be the reason you couldn't get Siril or photoshop to work with those Lights Files?? )

Your light frames should be taken with your DSLR settings in RAW, NO NR, white balance set to "auto" or "daylight", Metering Mode set to "evaluative", picture Style set to "standard" and your shutter set to "Bulb" ( I recall you are already experienced with daytime photography so I am sure you will know how to set all these settings ) 

1 - In astrophotography it's always a balancing act between getting as long an exposure as possible to maximise signal to noise ratio, while also avoiding light pollution effects and star trailing. In your individual circumstances that could mean anything from 5 seconds exposures to 10 minutes exposures! Then we want to get as many of those long exposures as possible to stack and process later on in post processing. 

2 - Yes Dark frames need to be shot with matching ISO, exposure length and crucially at the exact same temperature. It is actually rather difficult to match DSLR dark frames temperature to Lights temperature, so some people  myself included ) don't bother using them! With a dedicated cooled astro camera, you can easily match the temps with the settings in the software you use with them!

3 - I'm sorry but I can't adequately answer this question because I don't use my cameras histogram for lights, I simply do my Flat frames 5-9 seconds, depending on whether the daytime sky is cloudy, totally blue or something in the middle, like scattered clouds. I must point out though, this is just what personally seems to work for me, other people might well disagree with my methods! Sorry! 

4 - Bias frames are simply the fastest shutter speed possible, in preferably a darkish room at home, with lens cap on but also crucially cover your cameras viewfinder with black Sellotape/insulating tape! People forget that stray light can find it's way through here and onto your cameras sensor! 

I really wish I could have gone into more detail but as you will learn with experience in this hobby, there is a LOT to learn and there are so many variables depending on a multitude of factors, that to write it all down you'd end up with a short novel for an answer!! haha! ( that is the reason why in my first message to you, I recommended you start watching Astrophotography YouTube videos, you will learn so much faster actually seeing a person doing whatever it is they are talking about, which you won't get with just the written word! )

Best Of Luck Simone!

Wes

38 minutes ago, Simone_DB said:

Hi Wes, thanks for your kind words! I signed up some weeks ago and I must say that this site is a treasure and the fellow members are kind and extremely collaborative! 😀

Since I like photography, I'm aware of vignetting issue, and I'm quite sure in lightroom there is a feature to fix it. I'll give a look at it! Besides I live in a polluted area (even from light), so what you're saying is quite likely to be the case.

I'll check the channels you suggested me for sure, since I'm doing the first steps and every information source is important.

Take care man, thanks again!

@Simone_DB Oh well thats a huge advantage you have, already having experience with cameras/photography! Hopefully you'll find solutions in Lightroom for image aberrations my friend! 

best of luck with your new journey in photography. Astrophotography is a steep learning curve but it really is so rewarding when you reach little milestones! 

Clear Skies! 

Wes.

1 minute ago, Paz said:

I saw it both sides!!!

It was looking bad but I got a 72mm  refractor set up on a Porta 2 in case the weather turned good. I found the Moon/Venus with the help of Sky Safari, I put it in compass mode and squared it with my scope and swung to the right place and that was good enough. Although it was not visible naked eye, through my finder I could just make out the lit limb of the moon. Then I saw Venus which was super bright in comparison, I wonder why my brain noticed the moon first and not Venus but anyway I then took a while to line up my finders as the moon and Venus kept appearing and disappearing behind the clouds. I settled on a 4mm SLV for 108x and 0.4 degree field of view, and could see a well dimmed (by the clouds) view of Venus but the moon was invisible! By moving the scope back and forth I could only just make out the limb of the moon coming and going. I then tried a polarising filter to see if I could do better but I could not see an improvement, so I left that out and just stayed at the eyepiece and tried to not lose Venus.

The clouds thinned a little and the moon magically appeared alongside Venus! The first contact was epic, Venus took a minute or so to pass the limb of the moon, I wondered if I would think so what, having seen the moon and Venus so many times but it was amazing.

After that the clouds thinned further and the sun came out. I brought the scope in but left it set up, and I went back out at 10.30 to see Venus re-emerge. I dropped to a 10mm SLV and 43x and a 1.2 degree field of view to get a clear view of the lit limb of the moon in order to have my bearings on where Venus would emerge. It was another roller coaster of cloud coming and going and the Moon appearing and disappearing in the finder, but once I was at the eyepiece as long as I stayed there and kept it in view it was ok, this time the Moon never completely disappeared at the eyepiece.

I got my bearings on where Venus would emerge and watched the time, then a few minutes before I stay at the eyepiece and concentrate. Then Venus pops out right on time and right where I am looking! As soon as Venus appears I can tell my focus is slightly off due to focusing on a dim moon, and I fix this and get a great view with some atmospheric colour in the spells when the could was thinner, which on this occasion I thought was pretty and added to the wonder of the view, rather than being a nuisance. 

What an epic result for me and against the odds - only matched I think by when I saw a Mercury transit once in a small window of clarity between persistent cloud and rain.

Here's a picture when I was getting my finders lined up (I think this was with a 25mm SLV), and a picture of the sky after first contact finished, the clouds cleared up just enough and just in time!

 

 

I'm STILL trying mate!! LOL. I have had my DSLR camera set up on my camera tripod, staring at the area of sky where Moon is, waiting for a gap in clouds, but it's just not happening mate! So frustrating! LOL.

Lovely pic you got yourself mate!

Regards, Wes, Liverpool

3 minutes ago, Cosmic Geoff said:

The ingress was clouded out but I saw the exit with my 127mm Mak and with the 102mm f5 GoTo.  I did not try setting up for imaging.  I missed the moment of emergence as I was walking between the two telescopes.

@Cosmic Geoff Jeff i was/am gutted, because i was hoping to get some lovely daytime images of the Moon and Venus but YET AGAIN the damn clouds stopped me!

13 minutes ago, Simone_DB said:

Hi, yesterday, after some weeks of bad weather, there was a pretty clear night, so I decided to make my first attempts to shoot some objects. The pictures were taken with a Nikon D5100 at direct focus and a coma corrector. The objects are the Andromeda Galaxy, the Pleiads and a couple of objects, another galaxy and a double cluster I didn't identify (I used the "tour" feature of the Synscan). I made some editing in lightroom: essentially cropping and "removing haze".

I think I used the remote of the camera wrong when I shoot Andromeda, because it's a 96 secs exposure, but it wasn't my intention to have it so long, and in fact it is blurry, I suppose for alignement issues. . What can cause that?

Whatever hint, suggestion, advice or opinion is extremely welcome, and also I have a couple of questions:

-As you can see (I hope) there are some circular black artifacts in the pictures. I'd like to know what is the reason for those. Besides I think the sensor is dirty, can I clean it or does it require professional maintenance?

-In some pictures, near the center, there seems to be a brighter area, what can cause that kind of halo?

- Are there some basic lightroom settings/regulations for DSOs?

Thank in advance!

@Simone_DB Hi and welcome Simone!

Beautiful pics Simone! Much better than i managed my first time taking pics of space!

In answer to first question - I am 99.99% sure that your camera sensor is absolutely fine and does not need cleaning. What appears to be happening in your pics is a phenomena known as "Vignetting". i would suggest you google "Vignetting" to learn more about the causes and the solutions

second question - There seems to be a combination of 2 things happening here...Vignetting and light reflections causing parts of your pics to have brighter patches. Light reflections can often be caused by light pollution from street lights, household lights, even stary moon light can cause this. I would strongly suggest you start watching YouTube videos about Astrophotography, because you will learn so much in a much shorter time than if you were only reading up about the hobby. here are some great suggestions for YouTube Astrophotography channels...

*Astrobackyard

*The narrowband Channel

*Astrobiscuit

*Small optics

and there are many many more great Astrophotography channels besides the above YouTube channels I have suggested. 

best of lick Simone! and remember, this website is also a brilliant resource for advice and inspiration!

Clear Skies, wes.

@ProfessorPhreak Hi and a warm welcome to SGL. You are in the best place for advice and inspiration my friend!

Clear Skies from Liverpool, England.

On 05/11/2023 at 21:43, lunator said:

I had a quick look at Saturn between the clouds. Too many fireworks to continue the session. 

Hopefully quieter in the week.

@lunator I was trying to get some 90 sec videos of Saturn and Jupiter last night but the damn fireworks locally by my home, combined with a lot of smoke/haze, made it too difficult to get decent video data. I don't want to be a kill-joy but those damn fireworks get on my nerves! Thanks goodness it only happens for a few days once a year! 🤨

17 hours ago, IB20 said:

Have just seen a string of 20 odd satellites in a row, which I’m assuming were Starlink? They weren’t particularly close together and from end to end took about 30° of sky, the biggest constellation I’ve ever seen. They were all as bright as Deneb (+1.3) until they faded into our shadow. 

I used to think they were pretty cool but seeing them like that has actually made me quite concerned.

@IB20 Apparently Starlink are planning on eventually having 10's of K's of sats carpeting the entire world night skies/skies? If true, astrophotography will be a LOT harder in years hence? We will probably be able to use some special editing software to remove all the sat trails from subs? Hope so...😕

Wes.

18 hours ago, Mr Spock said:

Gone cloudy here with showers. Same old... 

@Mr Spock In relation to the UK weather these last few months...PLEEEASE don't get me started!! GRRRR!!

( Hahaha! We have to laugh otherwise we'd go nuts here in the UK of late! LOL )

"clear" skies...lol

On 01/11/2023 at 21:46, Albir phil said:

I bought mine from Astronomiser already moddifed ,and he is very helpful if you need advise.

Yes I almost bought a ready modded DSLR camera from Astronomiser myself, but in the end I couldn't justify owning 3 DSLR cameras, so I opted for modding one of my existing DSLR's and was super happy with the results! 

Wes

On 31/10/2023 at 05:29, Nikolai De Silva said:

Yes this is for visual astronomy. That was what I thought. I saw on the internet that the Sky-watcher Avant mount is able to be used as an Eq mount and also as an Alt-Az mount. The Avant mount is just like the Starquest mount and therefore I tried to make this horizontal. But the latitude adjusting knob is too short to make this fully horizontal. 

Now what I think is, it is better to track stars using the red dot finder and the star hopping method.

Thanks

Nikolai

@Nikolai De Silva Hi Nikolai. I would suggest you point the polar axis straight up at the zenith ( above your head ) and use the scope in an Alt/Azimuth configuration. After all, you are doing visual astro, so perfect polar alignment really isn't necessary. You have a fantastic little 'scope there and you will see a lot of cool objects with it ( local light pollution allowing, ofcourse! ) 

Just use it as an alt/az setup and start finding your way around the sky, if possible using a mobile phone planetarium app to help you find things.

Best of luck my friend!

Wes, England

14 minutes ago, carastro said:

I had mine modded by Astronomiser some 13 years ago.  Good to know he still does it.  

@carastro Yes he's still going, and he did a perfect job on my DSLR Caroline. His service was also really cheap, just £95 with return postage included, I can't find fault with the guy. I'm planning on getting another DSLR camera modified so I always have a back up camera!

Wes.

15 minutes ago, callisto said:

Great, that's good to hear  

Do you know if Juan (CheapAstronomy) is still doing mods to cameras?

Was googling him but got no results 🤔

@callisto Tbh Callisto i actually tried Juan ( CheapAstronomy ) but couldn't find him myself? That's when i looked into astronomiser, contacted him, and got it sorted through him. Maybe Juan isn't doing them no more? I honestly don't know mate?

20 minutes ago, nickp87 said:

Haha yes it's a very slippery and expensive slope. It doesn't help that I like buying things and have no patience, but I didn't quite realise how crazy expensive some of this stuff can get.

Thanks for the welcome all, this forum seems nice and chilled compared to some other I've been on. 

LOL sorry for coming in here, but I just laughed when you two were talking about the "slippery slope" and "crazy expensive" this hobby can get! It really can get silly expensive! LOL. And no matter how expensive your latest gear was, you're always eyeing up the next big purchase! ( or should that be "Big Boys Toy!? LOL )

I must say though, it's so rewarding when you get new gear outside and get your first, second, third etc light and start seeing improvements in your images! 

On the first proper 'scope one, mine was a belter little 114mm aperture Newtonian Reflector (Skywatcher 114/500), and I'll never forget the first time I saw Jupiter through it! Incredible! And I haven't looked back since!

Wes.

6 minutes ago, callisto said:

Hi guys,

Did yous send away the camera to get it modded or DIY?

 

Mark.

@callisto I sent mine away to Astronomiser. He's done a perfect job for me

@nickp87 Hi and welcome! You're in the best place for support and advice with all aspects of this ace hobby!

Clear Skies from Wes, Liverpool

On 24/10/2023 at 13:28, WolfieGlos said:

Couldn't agree more, and nice effort!

I'd read about it, but never appreciated the difference it would make. I waited about a year until I got a modded DSLR and......like you......I was blown away! Then I added the l'enhance filter...wow even more! Enjoy it, it makes a world of difference.

@WolfieGlos Hi Chris! So sorry for late reply, I've not managed to get on here for a few days.

Yes like you i never truly appreciated what a difference the astro-mod would make, despite reading tons about it on here and other places online. Plus just like you I waited around 1 full year before taking the plunge, so to speak! And yes the L-Enhance filter is awesome, I love mine and have a lot of works planned with it in the coming months! 

Thanks Chris!

Clear Skies! 

Wes

21 hours ago, Albir phil said:

Yes no mileage in comparing just be happy with YOUR images good luck get some images with that new toy 🤗🤗

@Albir phil Aww Thanks Phil! I'm buzzing with my new toy! 

3 minutes ago, Albir phil said:

Yes it's the processing that the hard part, I used to look at my images and say that's not as good as another person's, now I look at them and think yes that will do for me.If you're happy with it that's all that matters.

@Albir phil Thanks Phil, that's a very good point. It's not helpful constantly comparing myself to other much more experienced imagers, it just makes me not appreciate my own progress. Thanks mate.

7 minutes ago, Albir phil said:

Your imaging as suddenly been given a shot in the arm with the modification,as was mine when I had my DSLR modded 😳

@Albir phil Thanks phil. yes it's massively improved my camera mate. When I get better at processing i'll start producing really nice images hopefully!

14 minutes ago, Ags said:

The default IR filter in a DSLR cuts about 75% of the Ha light. 

@Ags yes I had obviously read and been told about how much Ha light/red colours the unmodded DSLR's cut out but it wasn't until i actually used my modified camera that it really struck me just how much ha it's been blocking! I was amazed!

Hi all. So last night I managed my first ever session with my newly modded Canon EOS 600D DSLR camera, and I literally could not believe my eyes when I saw the first 3 minute sub!! I was also using the Optolong L-Enhance Filter. The difference that the modification to camera made was astounding. I have been doing astrophotography for just over 1 year with a normal unmodded DSLR and I never realised just how much of the red Ha data that an unmodded DSLR was blocking until i got it modded. If there is ONE THING I would advise any newbie to imaging, it's GET YOUR DSLR camera astro-modded asap! I only managed just under 1 hour total integration, but I estimate i'd have needed about 3 hours data to gather the same amount of Ha signal with my unmodded camera!? Plus the contrast between the Ha and the background night sky is massively improved, and alongside the L-Enhance filter, it just makes your data sooo much cleaner and easier to process in post!

Obviously my post processing leaves a lot to be desired still, but i'm just buzzing with excitement about what's possible with my new setup!!

*Canon DSLR astro-modded

*SW HEQ5 Pro mount

*Optolong L-Enhance Filter

*Altair Lightwave 66/400ED Refractor

*ZWO ASI 120MM for guiding with PHD2

*48 minutes total integration ( clouds...again! lol )

*Lights - 16 x 180sec

*Flats - 15 x 9sec

*Bias - 15 x 1/4000th sec

*No darks ( difficult to match sensor temperature with DSLR cameras )

*I wasn't sure which image to post on here. They're both exact same image, just slightly different post processing. I will obviously get better with processing with more experience )

On 29/12/2022 at 23:10, tooth_dr said:

I spent a few nights collecting data on this stunning dark nebula in Cepheus.

The data taken over several evening sessions - 20th November, 28th November, 11th December, 12th December, 13th December, 15th December.  Varying moon phases between unrisen and 88%.

Scopes: 2 x APM LZOS 105/650

Cameras: 268M / 2600MC

Mount: Mesu e200

Guiding: OAG / 290MM

Acquisition: SG Pro / PHD2

Misc: Pegasus Power Box Advance / Atik EFW3 / ZWO Filter Drawer

I used a total of 11.1 hours of luminance and 8.3 hours of OSC data taken with 268M and 2600MC.  In addition I also took 50 minutes of Ha data with 3nm Chroma filter.  Total integration time approx 20 hours.

Stacked in APP, processed using Pixinsight, ImagesPlus and Photoshop 2023.

This might be the first image I've sat back and looked at and been genuinely quite satisfied.   I even used PI for a couple of things, and it's finally starting to sink in.

Any C+C welcome

Adam.

 

@tooth_dr Incredibly detailed, colour and contrast rich, stunning image! This has to be one the best DSO images I've seen to date! 

May I ask, what Bortle scale you achieved this in? Utterly stunning image my friend!

On 13/10/2023 at 15:13, vlaiv said:

Not directly.

With planetary imaging it is important to freeze the seeing and for that reason exposure needs to be very short - often in 5-6ms range. Even if image looks under exposed.

When you image at those exposure lengths - you can expect to ideally achieve up to 200fps (1s / 5ms = 200fps). There is a limit to how many of those frames can be recorded and this limit is imposed by USB connection speed and speed of your disk drive (SSD/NVME can easily cope with needed speeds so its worth having those in your imaging rig).

USB link has limited bandwidth - it can achieve only certain amount of data transfer speed. Each frame you record contains some amount of data. If you increase FPS - you increase amount of data needed to be transferred over USB connection. At some point USB connection can become bottleneck in your recording.

When this happens - it is beneficial to reduce ROI as size of each frame determines how much data it contains - smaller ROI less data per frame - more frames per second can be transferred over USB.

You can achieve best contrast/detail/surface detail if you capture the most data and ROI can help with that - so in that sense it helps to increase those - but only for reasons of data transfer. After you hit max data rate / max FPS allowed by your exposure length - smaller ROI won't contribute anything.

BTW, ZWO publishes max theoretical FPS for every camera / ROI size combination and it is worth checking out.

Say that you work in 8bit format and you want to hit 200FPS because you are using 5ms exposure length - then you need to drop your ROI to at least 800x600.

One more note - exposure length should really be judged properly. It needs to be short enough to freeze the seeing - which really means that distortion of atmosphere is "static" in short period of single frame. If you don't do this you will have "cumulative effect" of two or more different distortions averaged - which is just "motion blur" of different distortions and is a bad thing.

On the other hand - you don't want to have your exposure set any lower than that because it will hurt you final image (more noise then needed).

Reality is - that there is no single well defined exposure length, and it is trade off - some frames will be usable some won't as there will be motion blur. Longer the exposure length - more frames you'll need to discard and stack fewer good ones so it is a fine balance of finding good exposure length. Another thing is how bad the seeing is - in average seeing you will need exposure in range of 5-6ms. In really good seeing you might afford to have exposure set to 10ms or even 15ms. In really poor conditions you might need to go as low as 3-4ms.

Btw, Lunar imaging can often employ 3ms as standard because of amount of light - this even allows for narrowband filters to be used with lunar with longer exposures - but that is "advanced topic"

 

@vlaiv Hi again Vlaiv. Thank you so much for such a detailed and helpful response. Youy really know your craft! I will take on board everything you've educated me about and put that new knowledge into practice. Again thank you so much Vlaiv, I really do appreciate yours and everyone else's help and education, I'd be lost without these forums! 

As a side note, I do plan to invest in either a large mak' cass' with a minimum 150mm aperture, or a medium sized SCT of around 200mm to 250mm'ish aperture, specifically for my planetary work. I've seen incredible planetary works produced with these optical systems, they seem made for planetary and very small DSO's, and I've never actually own either type of optical system, so I very much look forward to getting one in the coming months.

Clear Skies to Vlaiv and all who contributed!

12 minutes ago, knobby said:

Loosely speaking, for planets you want to be aiming for approx 5 x pixel size (3.75 for the 224) so around F19 would be good.

So a 3x Barlow will give you f15 on your scope,I'd say give it a go 🙂

Remember to cool the scope to surroundings as best as possible and check collimation.

@knobby Hi knobby, and thank you for your help and advice.

Yes i forgot to mention the pixel scale part of the equation, sorry! That was one of the other major reasons I wanted to use higher power Barlow's, to achieve better pixel scale and F-number. I will give the 3X barlow a shot with the 224MC and see how I fare, thanks. 

Just one other question, if I may, please Knobby? Would you recommend I decrease the ROI around the Planet so my images/frames are more "zoomed in" to the Planet, so to speak? Does decreasing the ROI until it's tight around the Planet increase contrast/detail/surface detail etc?