scarp15

That is interesting Stu, I know that you knew already some on here, how else did you widen the group numbers? I don't do face book but if there was a purpose. There has only been one real club / group that I have ever fully gelled with and that was also an informal structured group, Newcastle Outdoors Activities Club, back then responding to a rough hand written note pinned up on the notice board of a local mountaineering shop. I had been a member of Sunderland Astronomical Society, very proactive particularly in outreach events / talks, star-camp at Kielder, very welcoming / supportive, regular notification of dark sky trips at their dedicated dark sky site or at their meeting place and observatory based in Washington. Popular with all age groups and at this time of year students. I got into wanting to try new places and when it was more convienet for myself, but you can learn a lot from enthusiast and experienced members, at least to put wind in your sail.

Observational astronomy could be considered to have been on the ascendance in contemporary times, in relative terms. At the very least it is a niche activity, yet accessible in a wide range of equipment, reasonable cost and supportive online forums, to anyone who may develop an enthusiasm, compared to a couple of decades ago. The appeal to observational astronomy is the immediacy and relative simplicity, combining with the rush of excitement on locating and discovering a target. Scrutinising the night sky connects those of us who go out to visually observe perhaps with an ancestral impulse. Distinguishing something for what it is, at the parameters of visual attainment, accepting those photons is truly engaging. Having been once a part of an astronomical society and attending star parties, whilst welcoming, the clear focus of attention was on imaging and lap top observing. There is a slight conflict of interest in getting fully dark adapted surrounded by gadgets and a general opinion that imaging is the natural progression. Visual astronomy perhaps serves best those that are OK to go it alone and share / interact on here (thank goodness for that), or can formulate informal groups of like minded people. Whether it is on the wane, yep it probably is; encroaching light pollution, excessive air traffic, poor weather is enough reasoning. Does it matter? Perhaps unfortunate but no not really, modernity will continue beyond this generation to connect successive generations with the sky at night.

Very interesting Gerry. I will be considering a 41mm Panoptic for this winter. It might be too much with my VX14 at f5.3 applied to using a Paracorr; 7.7mm exit pupil, yet would be inclined to try this if circumstances are applicable. There is an experienced observer (whom I understand is in his late sixties, early seventies) on Cloudy Nights, who reports using an 8mm exit pupil to assist when observing Barnard's Loop. Edit: For H-beta observing, accepting stopped down aperture More to digest, thanks.

I am probably at 57, a similar age to yourself John, I can understand the 4mm exit pupil factor from your quite good location. Situated at perhaps a darker location, enabling more fully dark adaption, I can really open up the potential with the VX14 and 6.8mm exit pupil. Unfiltered I would use this for much of the session (interacting back and forth to a 21mm ethos). It could well be beyond my max pupil dilation, but it worked within the context of the targets I was observing. I would be curious to open up a little more. The age related assessments are interesting, yet in the scenario of this thread discussion do not necessarily apply to a skilful seasoned observer, when fully dark adapted.

It can be annoying, you really do have to get familiar with certain places that you feel reassured and confident to access. I will not use large parking spaces at all, this season planning for extended overnight trips in remoter country and as far away as possible from any trace of a light dome. It is as you imply worth while seeking out potential discrete spots by doing some day time reccies.

This can often happen to me to, when looking overhead, even losing my balance a bit and become slightly disoriented comprehending the intended constellation. Actually it is great, something to relish looking close to or up, within the blackness, at zenith for targets such as you imply within Cepheus. A Dobsonian requires careful manoeuvring with both hands, my VX14, the Telrad on a 4" riser base, I can get close to within proximity of a target, finetune if necessary with a RACI finderscope, always carefully handling the dob - quite a tactile procedure. Hanging onto the dob is good, because looking up continually, you might almost fall backwards (well I do anyhow), would make a great slapstick silent comedy sketch. The dob can go into the dob hole, I use a (rubber car) ground mat and can kneel if necessary or use a sit mat to kneel (one knee) whilst aligning the Telrad. Being 5' 10 1/2" tall, I can stand comfortably with the VX14 and observe a target at zenith. Best memory for this is of M101 and the accompanying galaxy group. This is also possible with my VX8L, which I use a Rigel Quikfinder, a bit trickier to initially align, easier afterwards with the raci and a bit more kneeling required. Again careful manoeuvring and turning with both hands, followed by comfortable observing, this time on an adjustable observers chair.

Attending an appointment at the opticians, I asked the optometrist if he could measure my dark adapted pupil size. He said that he was unable to do as they did not have the specific equipment, would be possible only at a private eye clinic. Can only speculate on exit pupil size between 5mm and 6mm perhaps. Even when approaching or in your fifties, sixties, perhaps beyond there are some accounts for observers retaining good dark adapted pupil size. Unclear how many are able to measure their dilated pupil. Under mag 21+ skies particularly with a filter, always a good plan to experiment with varied focal lengths. As you have stated Stu, it was interesting that for much of my most recent dark sky trip I continually used my 31mm Nagler, 6.7mm exit pupil.

This subject applies to observing under dark skies. Although my own knowledge on this aspect is a bit sketchy, increasingly I am understanding the advantages for large exit pupil observing in the right circumstance. I would have to assume, as do not know for certain, that my own exit pupil measures at around 5mm. For the past two or three seasons, I have become accustomed for observing using an f4.6 dobsonian, applying on occasion, at low power an exit pupil of 6.7mm (moderating to 5.84mm with a paracorr). It begins to open up, reveal, low contrast nebulae, whether requiring a filter or not (in the case for certain reflection nebulae). Becoming fully dark adapted, the slightly brighter sky background becomes negligible with an aggressive filter, such as a H-beta and useful for gaining subtle details and contrasts on various objects when used without. The low mag wide field assists with gaining expansive objects inside or just immediately outside the field of view. The same low mag gain is applied to my f6 dobsonian: 5.1mm exit pupil. Currently I am considering this factor more so with my f7 refractor, which operates at 4.4mm exit pupil and could potentially go to 5.8mm, such as with a 41mm eyepiece (applied to my f6 dob will increase to 6.8mm). A few years back I used an F4.9 dobsonian and 35mm eyepiece, therefore just over 7mm exit pupil. It was useful but was also aware of leaking light at the edges. I do not recall any issues for seeing the shadow of the secondary though and this period had preceded my interest for effectively using a H-beta filter. My particular interest is anticipating roaming through Orion and Auriga with a H-beta filter this winter, hopefully using each of my three scopes in different situations. It would be interesting to get your own viewpoint on this subject and for how effective a large exit pupil is comparing a refractor and dobsonian perhaps, particular large low contrast nebulae that this has either been successful with or planned to attempt and anything else of course. Can only hope that the late autumn through winter is a good one.

No that's fine Neil it is quite valid and I am open to the same questions. Picking Gerry's mind on these things is always good. My TV-85 has a maximum true field of 4.4 degrees, the 31T5 is a good match at 4.2 degrees. Will have to do the calculations. The contrast on these objects is so subtle that a 'brighter' image will pick out this subtlety. More to think about as always. Quite some time ago I use to have a Pan 35mm, I have never seen a Panoptic 41, assume its even chunkier than the 31T5. Would also like to emphasis more use of my 8" F6 dob for this nebula, quite possibly some vignetting using a 31T5, but gaining a 5.1mm exit pupil. In comparison, the California nebula is relatively bright and in conjunction with a H-beta filter, quite achievable with a smaller aperture refractor and employing an exit pupil ranging between 3.0mm and 4.4mm. Edit: Checked the Televue 85 eyepiece calculator chart, Pan 41 = 5.8mm exit pupil, 4.4 degree true field, x14.6 mag.

It can sometimes become a bit of a conundrum, through experience my understanding for experimenting with exit pupil is increasingly relevant, sometimes much more so than aperture considerations. For example, with my 85mm refractor, I cannot gain the Merope Nebula with a 31mm eyepiece. The exit pupil is simply not big enough. It is no problem in both my other scopes with respective 5.1mm and 6.7mm (equally 5.84 with paracorr). Gerry's suggestion for a yet longer focal length is quite logical.

I would definitely as Gerry has said Neil, try both approaches. Large exit pupil is a must, faster than F7 could be an advantage. My 31T5 works Ok with the VX14 on the brighter portion, big 6.7mm exit pupil combining with the H-beta filter, the contrast, considering how diffuse this is responds quite well. The same eyepiece with my 85mm F7 refractor will give 4.4mm exit pupil and 4.24mm field of view, the 42mm LVW would be very interesting.

For interest, here is another sketch by Mel Bartels of the Southern arc. I do not ever anticipate seeing anything resembling this feature, although I did attempt last year.

Only on here when during a mid September period, could the notion of Winter become a focus for discussion, perhaps for some a sense of expectation. Accounting for recent past winters, expectation is just maybe a bit inaccurate a notion, yet another excuse for conversing upon this subject right now might be accounting for the present full moon. Consisting of part of the vast Orion Cloud complex, Sh2-276, Barnard's Loop was considered to have been discovered by William Herschel, re-discovered and named as the Orion Loop by E.E Barnard. This immense diffuse emission nebula is suspected to be a Supernova Remnant, associated from an even larger Hydrogen cloud. The nebula has an apparent diameter of over 30 degrees. Barnard's Loop is a very tricky subject to observe. The 'brighter' northern section, is possible by drifting across starting at reflection nebula M78 to the open cluster NGC 2112. The southern arc section near to Rigel is also considered to be possible. A good quality 2" H-beta filter is necessary, observations are feasible with wide field binoculars, wide field refractor and even naked eye, whilst holding the filter into the line of vision. Conversely, larger dobsonians are also a good tool for attempting this observation. There have been interesting and intriguing accounts posted on SGL in past seasons. These have included Gavsters enhanced observing principle, employing a night Vision device into the optical path, this technology providing views even in suburban skies. There had been past accounts by a keen eyed observer in darkest Norfolk through her large aperture dobsonian of this and even aspects of the Eridanus Loop and Gerry's (Jetstream) successful observations of certain parts and features that constitute the long curving profile of this expansive object. Perhaps most notably (not featured directly on SGL) are the observation accounts and sketches of Mel Bartel using his very fast 6" F2.8 newtonian. To observe the northern portion, Barnard's Loop requires a dark, transparent sky and complete dark adaption. It is not so easy, yet tracing along a faint haze or 'ghost' like impression where the background stars are blotted out is possible with some determination and patience. A topic that I am guilty of highlighting at least once before, it is in a way one of those slightly irrational seasonal obsessions and I look forward again to the challenge. This season I plan on another stargazing wild camping adventure close to the Scottish Border and taking along a wide field refractor, where hopefully Barnard's Loop will receive some attention. Here is a Mel Bartel sketch,

Good topic Neil. During infrequent forays into a dark sky location session, I tend to just maybe get a little bit frantic at the start. It's as though I want to try and hit on things as quick as possible, a reaction perhaps to the lack of times I get to go out to somewhere dark during a new moon and it is actually clear. However this state of mind, quickly evaporates and is steadily replaced by a calmer, composed and more in tune persona, with the environment I am occupying and the circumstance I am in. Free of any other distraction, from then on all that is of importance are the selection of deep sky subjects I wish to pursue. A calm composed presence of mind, locked onto an absolute focus on particular subjects, a comfortable posture either seated (preferably) or standing, conveys patience and concentration. Some very difficult subjects, require repeated attempts, checking in the finder and the charts. Retaining at all times dark adaption and sometimes requiring afterwards, further clarification, referencing a potential observation to a reputed observers sketch or some verbal /written account. It can almost become a form of meditation, removing all other external concerns and despite a lack of sleep, can get you energised.

Arranging an occasion observing session with family members or friends, perhaps impromptu during a period of clear sky or one that had been organised, whilst perhaps requiring quite a bit of effort to coordinate, can be a rewarding experience. A weekend trip to catch up with family members, was planned to coincide with a good lunar phase and the potential to enable others to look at the moon, planets and some deep sky objects from a suburban back garden. Routinely I take my 8" F6 dob. On this occasion, there was much appreciation with a quite reasonable view of Saturn and Titan and good responses to many other subjects. However one particular subject had perhaps the most impactful reaction. Later and to complete the tour, the Double Cluster in Perseus, was with my aging parents especially, a real hit. Naturally for this, I employed a x57, 1.75 degree field of view, Perseus was situated in a darker part of their skyline with mostly countryside and the Bowland hills in the distance. The compact intensive starfield, though not as magnificent as when observed at a dark sky location, was non the less an impressive visual sight. A must see subject for family based outreach. When sharing with any family member(s) or friends, what subject and perhaps with whom do you consider gains most favour?

Thanks for the continued responses, apologises I had a bit of catching up with some peoples comments on this thread. Hi Graham, I haven't been to Millshield for ages, expect that the SAS still meet there? That is interesting concerning the 8" dob observation. Scanning this region with my 16x70 binoculars from a hill top dark site two weeks ago, this dark nebula was quite distinct. With a 4.1 degree field, it required a bit of roaming to appreciate and comprehend the full profile.

Lovely, looks like a fabulous location Piero, impressive images and neat little thumb nail sketches, enjoy your evening.

Transparency will be a key factor concerning appreciating a good quality dark sky, particularly when planning to observe lower elevation objects. Distant light domes become expansively reflected by thin cloud and moisture. Assessing a dark sky presently, could be determined if you can see M31 directly. Taking sky brightness readings, can greatly assist and inform concerning observable targets on a given night at a given location within a particular time frame. At the weekend, I was averaging SQM-L readings at 21.2 mag, not my darkest location option (based on a place practical for a same night return trip home) although the windy conditions made it the most desirable. Looking S/W, W, and N were not hindered by any trace of light dome. High up into Cygnus and the milky way was particularly distinct. Andromeda, straight forward naked eye. Certain low lying targets in Sagittarius (based on my 55 degree Latitude location), were a rare and very impressive treat. The wind probably an advantage to the good transparency. One considered clear night to another at the same location, often may yield a different sky quality. Dark adaption may play a role, yet as always the sky above approaching Zenith is where it ought be visually darkest.

Spot on, that's some interesting info you have dug up. To the south are The Ranges, the military training ground, that occupy a part of the Northumberland National Park. They do night time exercises and can stray into the Cheviots and places such as I was camped. To the east lies the route of Dere Street, a bridle track that the Romans converted into a military road for their campaigns, between York and the small historic Scottish border Town of Jedburgh. Fortunately I didn't encounter either any Roman ghosts or contemporary military presence. However I was startled wide awake at 5am, by a loud grunting bleat right outside the tent. Happened to be a sheep nonplussed that I had camped on its morning munching patch. The summit offers a fine vantage point in all directions, I had also woke very early to watch the sun rise over the Cheviots.

Thanks for pointing that out Gerry. Yes of course, the Magic Carpet is considered to be a photo planetary nebula. At high power I noted that it had begun to misshape, becoming a bit more oblong in appearance. I had forgotten the research on this, another time I will aim to apply increasing more higher power.

The last time I visited this place my dob blew over. This time it was again windy with clear skies, yet offering a bit more shelter and protection from gusts than at my other locations. Previously I had my 8" dob, tonight I hauled my 14" dob out of the car. Setting up, a strong gust blew inward the fabric dust cover at the top of the tube, becoming lodged onto the Primary mirror. The only way to dislodge was to heave the quite hefty tube upside down, resting on a mat, against the wind and not least wondering what the effect would be on the pre set collimation. No matter, dobs are made of hardy stuff.....so are amateur astronomers. At low power Jupiter was quite featureless, Saturn a little sharper. The first catch for the night was M11, gaining a distinguished view of this cluster with the 13E. M22 was also impressive. Above the moorland, there were no low hazy clouds, drifting across to encounter numerous open clusters. Switching to a Lumicon OIII filter, 21E, I could trace the nebulae in the finder scope and each one visited seemed to light up. M17, The Swan was bright and graceful, M16 The Eagle characteristic with the dark lobe. much lower, M8 The Lagoon a little above the horizon, distinctive with dark lanes, open cluster NGC 6530 nestled within. Buffeted by gusts of wind, attention turned toward reaching high and into Cygnus. NGC 6888, The Crescent nebula conveyed that ghostly impression of a smooth grey curving 'brain like' shape transfixed in this dynamic starfield. Drifting across, the Veil was fully exposed and revealing. Finally at last, the first time I have seen it this year, Pickering's Triangular Wisp could be followed along the thin thread, There appeared to be 'chunks' of nebulosity, such as NGC 6779 very apparent. Western and Eastern sections revealing a delicacy of filaments. In my hast to get organised, I did not have Mel Bartel's sketch to hand, as provided by Gerry, which could have produced more exploratory scrutiny. Onwards, the drama and excitement continued as I climbed higher landing straight onto the Gulf of Mexico to explore the North America and Pelican Nebula. The wind chill was cutting, I had not layered up enough, even though I was wearing a down filled vest, a base and a mid layer, down filled beanie hat and gloves, summer it is not. Restored after a coffee break, I went in pursuit of NGC 6934 in Delphinus. This is a pleasing small hazy globular that starts to become resolved at mid to high power. Next I aligned to look at the Planetary NGC 7027, The Magic Carpet Nebula. Bright and blue, it is stellar like at low power and will take high power retaining its brightness and pleasing at 267X. Coasting through Cygnus I decided to have a try for the Little Veil Sh2-91. Accurately aligning along and close to 12 Cygni, I attempted to see its fine ghostly presence. I couldn't quite make it this time, a few factors perhaps; but for brief periods, transparency on the whole was very good, but I was not able to fully concentrate perhaps the wind chill, perhaps because I was not at my darkest location; ave SQM-L readings were 21.11, (gaining later to ave 21.23). Also I had quite simply not been out much and was instead enjoying this rare opportunity with everything else that was present. later I tried again with my 31T5 concluding with the same uncertainty. Moving away from Sh2-91, I replaced the OIII for a UHC and reached up again towards Sadre, drifting onto the emission nebula IC 1318, Gamma Cygni or Butterfly Nebula. This profile pleasingly filled the view through the 21E. After which M27 The Dumbbell was very bright and welcoming, in my slightly fatigued mind, it resembled the underbelly of a stingray deep in the blackness of the ocean. An equally bright and pleasing M27 The Ring Nebula followed. The cold wind was beginning to have an effect, therefore I switched to low power with 31T5, encountering the Veil again, before placing the filters away. Turning my back more to the wind, the Andromeda group of galaxies brightly filled the view. The Pleiades was steadily rising in the east, I swung around to face this and could trace the faint Merope Nebula, which will gain in prominence as it gains altitude. Approaching 1am it was enough combatting the cold, the milky way was punching across brightly particularly arcing towards the western horizon as I was packing up. Still I would rather have some wind than midges and dew, the perfection of the sky as I started to depart, making me feel a little guilty, how long will it be until the next time. Finally just to mention that for this trip, I took along a jumbo sized magnifying glass to assist with positioning details on my sky atlas under a dim red torch. This was a resounding successful and is a subject highlighted in another thread.

Yeah Carter Bar, at times can get a bit like that picture Paul. The road itself is not busy and the hills either side are empty, save for an osprey, which the binoculars came in very handy for. No other walkers regardless whether a bank holiday or not. The walking is lovely but not necessarily on established paths and can become a bit rough going. Anyhow here is a picture of the rock, had to be done I suppose, someone kindly took this on my return and here is another of the empty hills. I mentioned in my report that Sagittarius was not very observable on this outing. Tonight made up for this, the nebulae lit up cruising through, this time with a dob and else where, not at Carter Bar.

Just tried these out in my darkened back room, simulating as close as possible where I otherwise might be sat in the car. Projecting a dim red LED light, wow I am suitably impressed. I can see the text and features with good clarity across the page. When I remove the magnifying glass, (I am wearing reading glasses) the text immediately becomes distorted. From this initial impression I think that this jumbo sized magnifier could be altogether very helpful to identify target locations a little quicker and easier.

The good thing about having a pair of larger aperture binoculars, is that you can nip out and use them when there is a chance to do so and you can take them to places that might not be so possible with a scope. They can keep you involved.

Here is a picture of the supplied manual, providing a bit more information. Also just worth pointing out that besides this extra large, there is also a size large 5" diameter.