Should I be able to see M51?

[rocketandroll]

Ok... so, a frustrating night tonight...

Went out to get more M42 data but the cloud didn't clear until 9:15, and the morons at my work where I shoot from had their floodlights on till 10:15. Total failure.

Anyway, after that I decided to try and find something else, the only thing I (thought I) knew where it was roughly was M51.... so I turned the scope around and pointed it roughly at Alkaid to try and find it from there... trouble is, I have NO idea of scale between star charts and what I'm seeing through the eyepiece and wasn't sure I even had Alkaid as my finder scope isn't set up yet (had to remove it for transport last week, long story). Found two bright stars that looked to be in the right position but the surrounding stars through the ep looked nothing like the chart.

Anyway... I couldn't see it through the scope (a Meade 5000 series 127mm Apo) with a 32mm wide field eyepiece in there... it wasn't MEGA dark, but fairly dark once the lights had gone off.

Anyway, I took two shots of 60 seconds at ISO 1600 to see if i could tell if I was on target from those... nothing.

This was after I TRIED two-star aligning the scope to use the go-to and even though everything was (as far as I know) bang on... it kept saying 'RA missalignment 45 degrees' followed by 'Alignment failed'. I dunno whether it has to do the alignment from a zero position or something? It kept telling me the date, time or location info were wrong but they were definitely right.

Anyway, all in all a very annoying evening....

My real question was... through that scope, in a moderately dark site... should I be able to see M51 at all? I've read it's visible through bino's at dark sites... I'd have thought a 5" Apo would definitely show something then?

Hmmmmm.

Ben

[Lux1]

Well I just tried to find it as well with the aid of the celestron skyscout and failed. Pointed to the exact area of the sky and nothing. Again, I am using a 5" reflector.

How did people manage in the past?

[barkis]

It took the 72" Leviathon at Birr Castle to resolve the spirals of M51, so don't be dismayed that your 5" Apo. is struggling a bit.

It really is detectable M51, but only as two knots of fuzzyness.

It requires imaging to show how splendid it is.

[steppenwolf]

I too have viewed this object which is most certainly at its best when imaged but I agree with Ron's (Barkis') assessment, you will only see two fuzzy balls of mistiness I'm afraid.

If you are not sure whether you have the right star or not, start from Mizar instead of Alkaid - if you see two bright stars (Mizar and Alcor) then at least you'll know that your start point is right!!

[rocketandroll]

...well, here's the two images I nabbed... I seem to recall there's some software or a website somwhere that can tell you what you've got in a widefield shot.... ??

Dunno if anyone can tell me how far off I was? Probably MILES! Have no idea how big it should be in a 5" scope either.

Want to have a stab at imaging it... but if i can't find it I'll never manage!

Ben

[Dimpsey]

It is visible through a good 10x50 binocular pair, but only in very clear weather. That usually means a good nor'wester here in darkest Devon, mostly after rain. Easterlies are much poorer and with a moon it's not something I've ever seen.

[astroimpulse]

Have no idea how big it should be in a 5" scope either.

Go to the following site and put in your scope (or a match, or make up the numbers).

Then choose your camera ( or "Switch to visual view" to select EPs).

Choose M51 from the Messier drop-down and there you go

http://www.12dstring.me.uk/fov.htm

[steppenwolf]

Your second image definitely shows Alkaid but your first image missed M51 I'm afraid. You did get IC902 right at the top of the first image just under 1/4 of the way in from the left hand corner.

[rocketandroll]

...thanks Steve, thanks alll....

Well, I've tried overlaying the images I got over several widefield shots of M51 and can't match them up no matter what I do... no idea if the area I shot is even the right side of Alkaid.

I fear M51 (or any galaxy for that matter) is too feint a target in light poluted skies with no guiding.... gonna give up on that for now.

Wondering if there's anything else other than M42 that I might have a chance to capture in these less than ideal conditions?

I know nothing else comes close in terms of brightness.... gonna have a look around see what else there is and try and get a better idea where things are first :-)

Ben

[steppenwolf]

M45 is still there over in the West this month and The Rosette Nebula is always worth a punt too even if you only get the cluster within.

[ollypenrice]

... or the Beehive?

From a dark site M51 is totally unambiguous in a five inch and in a camera it is there or it ain't. But mist, LP ad all the other nighmares can mess it up.

Olly

[Pete Presland]

could not see m51 either tonight,the sky did not look very dark too, much light pollution

[planetdnb]

i can barely make it out through my 200P. i am imaging it tonight. I can't see any detail through a 20m eyepiece but i kind of know its there if you know what i mean.

[Darth Takahashi]

You can definitely eyeball M51 in a 4inch APO and as many have already said it will appear as two fuzzy cores... I have done this many times without goto, with the much cheaper PUSH to system.

If you are struggling to find it with GOTO then I'd suggest that you star hop to M51 instead as follows;

1. Find the end star in the handle of the Plough; Alkaid

2. There should now only be one other bright star in your finder, slight inside of Alkaid, hop to it and you find that you are looking at an upright right angled triangle.

3. Now hop roughly the same distance further down and back outside alittle and you should be in the right ball park to see M51.

Eyeball it visually and then start imaging and watch the spiral structure start to appear.

Here is a better description on how to find it.

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1999JRASC..93..253M

I used to find all my targets this way with my former G11 and its very satisfying when you find them. Everyone should learn this way first.

Good luck.

[dmahon]

Your first image: (RA, Dec) center (H:M:S, D:M:S): (13:38:21.410, +49:26:10.958)

Astrometry.net Stellar Browser

And your second: (RA, Dec) center (H:M:S, D:M:S): (13:45:13.640, +48:53:40.928)

Astrometry.net Stellar Browser

[RikM]

Have a crack at M3 if you are looking for imaging targets. Globs come out really well through light pollution. M51 is quite a tough one because it is a lot smaller than you expect. More like a pair of fuzzy stars than misty patches.

[msinclairinork]

To give you an impression what to look for;

I had a failed attempt a month or so ago at this one, failed because I only managed two subs before my dew heaters stop working (flat batt!) But I didn't realise this until it was to late.

But as I was on the hunt (manualy too, with the CG5, easy with a Telrad) I tried a few 60s ISO1600 small Jpeg's until I found it using my 3.14" frac (ED80, F7.5) and canon 300D...see attached. No processing, just a single 215KB image straight from the camera.

I think I may revisit it although it's a small one for my setup, but looks doable!

HTH

Michael

[dmahon]

To make it a bit more obvious:

[rocketandroll]

Thanks all!!

That astrometry.net site is awesomely useful! That was what I was looking for :-)

Looks like I was aiming in the right direction, just my sense of scale was way off, I thought my FOV was about 10X larger than it actually was :-)

Will have another stab when it gets clear again I think :-)

Gonna take as much reference material as I can with me to identify where I need to be pointing!

Ben

[rocketandroll]

Well, just to say... I managed to SEE M51 last night!

I didn't image it as we were at our local astro group's observing evening and the 127mm was on the EQ3 at the time whilst I was imaging the Pleiades on the EQ5 with my ED80... but at least I saw it!

The key is a darker site!!!

When I found it (by pure fluke) it was really quite obvious... I recognised it at once... two feint fuzzy blobs with brighter cores, one big one with a smaller one right next to it, I swear I could actually see a little detail/structure in it with averted vision too.

Anyway, I was well chuffed just to have seen it :-) Next clear night and a dark field I'll actually have a stab at imaging the thing!!!

Ben

[RikM]

Well done.