Nikon DSLR issue

[vulcan]

I read somewhere that Nikons are a less good choice for astrophotography than Canons because they treat stars as 'noise' and eradicate them. I have built up a collection of Nikon cameras and lenses (8-500mm) over the years, quite a substantial investment, and to all intents and purposes have been very happy with with the kit. There is no way I am going to change over to Canon at this stage. Can anybody explain what this problem really is and if there is a workaround? I would very much like to do some long exposure shots from a piggy-back mount on my NextStar 6se.

[James4]

Vulcan, I read that too. I can only say that my Nikon D5000 does not eat stars and easily beats my older Canon 300D especially at high ISO. I shoot RAW and turn off all noise reduction. I bought the Nikon about 6 months ago and it was a great choice. I have a few images in my gallery using the Nikon - and just to note the original Tifs are considerably smoother than the small jpg's uploaded

[johnh]

The star eating concerns the D70 D50 40 not sure about the new ones but basically Nikon applies a strong median filter 9.5bit which softens stars. Work around using noise reduction mode and switching off the DSLR after taking the image before NR mode you get a better filter free image with better bit depth 12bits with sharper results but my tests 4 years ago showed no real difference so I would not worry. Canons are better for astronomy but Nikons can do just as good a job so don't worry, todays DSLR's have better bit depth anyway but you won't notice much change in quality.

John.

[dlp]

I've a D90 & D7000 and neither eats stars thankfully. Do you have the original article reference? Wondering if it's something to do with the 'long exposure noise reduction' which I always keep turned off. That function creates a 'dark' exposure and subtracts it from the light.

David

Edit: John posted just before me! John - what do you mean by a filter free image please?

[vulcan]

Thank you, folks. I have a D200 and D5000 which are both relatively new so maybe I don't have the 'star-eating' problem. Haven't had a chance to try it yet. I'll have to read-up how to switch off noise reduction. Probably hidden in some deep menu.

[russ]

The D50 isn't affected, it was the first Nikon DSLR not to use the strong median filter. Even though it was just a cut down D70, thankfully it didn't have that problem.

Nothing wrong with the latest Nikon's, some are considered to have marginally better noise control than the equiv Canon.

[sunoficarus]

Stick with your D200! It will be clicking along long after most Canons have shrugged off their mortal shutter coils - and it's highly cold and weather resistant.

[Psychobilly]

I have a D200 and its my workhorse camera.. It has been known to shoot several thousand shots a day in a previous life...

However for astro... It's noisy and amplglow ridden with poor battery life...

I use ...

Nikons D200/D50 and another when funds allow... Canons 350D/1000D/500D and a KM5D for old times sake...

Billy...

[davew]

Without going over old ground too much, all Nikons use a software filter. Even the Pro D3 does. In the good old days ( !! ) when a picture was taken a true raw was held in the buffer until the dark was applied. That's where mode 3 came from. Later Nikons wrote the filtered raw to the buffer. To further complicate things, as speed became an issue, a black clip filter was applied.

Some curse. Some don't know. Some do know and can't see any problem. Try them out. You may be pleased. One problem that does arise is that the Astro software writers don't bother enabling the Nikons.

I hear the latest cameras, D7000 of note, use a very good filter.

If it becomes a sore point you can get a convertor to use the Nikon lenses on a modified Canon. Best of both worlds. A proper camera for the day and a Canon at night

Dave.

[Psychobilly]

A proper camera for the day and a Canon at night

Dave.

Absolutely.....

[Dave]

Hi Vulcan

Don't panic! I use a Nikon D300 for all my astro imaging and used to use a D70.

Check to make sure your camera saves your images as non-compressed raw NEF files in the menu system. And make sure the long exposure noise reduction is turned off.

I feel that the problem with Nikons isn't as bad as they say.

The only thing I would say is that there is more third-party software available for the Canons.

If you are in any doubt look at the images on my Web site.

Dave

[Shibby]

As has been stated, the work-around to achieve true raw images is to switch the camera off during "long exposure NR", which can be turned on in the menu.

The D50 is a star eater, contrary an earlier statement. I believe the median filter issue affects all Nikons, but luckily the D50 has this workaround.

Now, I'm starting to sound like an advertisement bot for this device, but if you're interested in getting "mode 3" (true raw) automatically, the solution is this charmingly home-made device from a chap named Javier:

Home

PS: you can get decent pictures without mode 3, but I personally have found the star detail much better with the star eater's hunger forestalled

[James4]

Hey Vulcan, my imaging skills are intermediate at best. But here's a pic from my Nikon D5000 at ISO 3200 - 7x60 sec unguided (New Year's Eve)

James

[vulcan]

James, that is indeed impressive. I would love to know how you did this unguided.

[James4]

Hey Vulcan, its simply a matter of high ISO on the camera and a fast scope F/4 for this shot. I'm using a CG5 GoTo mount. It is not that accurate, but will track well up to a minute for a scope with Focal Length 1000mm or less. You can make up for short exposure times and high ISO noise by taking lots of frames. Normally, I'd have taken 40x60, but I was just testing the new F/4 scope and wanted a few frames from several DSO. The scope was an Astro-Tech AT8iN ($450). Hope this helps. James

[Dave]

And here's the same object taken from Kelling through an 8" Skywatcher with auto-guiding using my Nikon D300.

[Shibby]

And here's mine, 42x2m unguided subs, equipment as per my sig, using an AM3 Intervalometer.

[vulcan]

I don't see any 'eaten' stars there. A couple show signs of having been sucked a bit though Is this story about Nikons being no good for astrophotography a product of the Canon PR machine perhaps?

[Psychobilly]

Probably more with Canon takign the Satro market more seriously in the Past (with the Da series of cameras) and the availbility of replacement filters and better software support...

Much as it pains me to say it the first Canon I bought a 350D trounced my Nikon D200 and the 1000D and 500D just opened the Gap further...

Still prefer my Nikon D200 for everything else and my next DSLR will be a Nikon...

Billy...

[Shibby]

It's all subjective. In most cases, the images produced with the median filter are good enough, especially if scaling down the image for web, as is normal.

For a more fair comparison of the effects of the median filter, look here:

Michael Covington's Daily Notebook

You can see that the remaining stars are slightly blurred, but it's not a massive issue, again because normally the image will be scaled down and it won't be that noticeable.

[Naz]

Some interesting info and views on here, Nikon vs Canon DSLR Cameras for Astrophotography

Archie

[themos]

Nikon D70 vs Canon 10D, these are old now but the issues identified are worth knowing about:

Nikon D70 Versus Canon 10D

[Dave]

I think it's clear that whatever the arguments, facts etc., it's not worth reinvesting in a new brand of camera and all the lenses just for astronomy and the minor advantages a Canon may, or may not have.

[E621Keith]

I think Nikon have some problem on how it handle RAW files, which Canon doesn't have. However, regardless of how the Nikon firmware or architecture works, I have seen many great pictures from Nikon DSLR, so they aren't as bad as it sounds.

I have had much more problem with my Fujifilm IS pro than my D50.

[themos]

The most awesome DSLR sky image ever made (IMHO) was done with a top-of-the-range Nikon.

Le Ciel de la Terre