ASA direct drive mount - rumours.

[ollypenrice]

More than a rumour, really. I had someone from a professional astro education centre call in the other day. He told me that they have returned their ASA mount for good after repeated efforts to get it to work. It had software and mechanical problems, he said, and of 6 mounts of which he has personal knowledge only two have worked.

It seems that the mount is less plausinble than the website at this stage in its history.

Olly

Sorry, title should say Drive.

[SteveP]

Hi Olly

That's a real shame. I really wanted this new concept to be successful. Did your visitor say whether in their case it was an engineering or a software issue?

Steve

[brianb]

Did your visitor say whether in their case it was an engineering or a software issue?

Surely if two of them worked it's a quality control issue?

[ollypenrice]

My guest felt that the mount simply was not ready for the marketplace. In the case of things mechanical I would agree with Brian. It is hard to believe that the firm would knowingly sell mounts that didn't work so it must be possible for them to work.

Another well known problem is making production versions of prototypes that work. Production is a different thing from making tool room specials. On the other hand, software bugs abound and the last people to find them are the people who wrote them, since they always go about things in a certain way.

I hope that the concept will be made to work but I also feel that the amateur astro community needs to protect itself against being used for Beta testing, hence my passing on of this story.

Sorry about the typos earlier. My neck is twitching at the moment. Trapped nerve.

Olly

[Marmite]

Somebody from France recently claimed on CN that a French astro group had returned their ASA mounts due to software issues. That person claimed there was no issue with the mounts other than misbehaving software.

Two things struck me about the post. One was the sheer vagueness: there was almost nothing to back it up. The other is that all of these "friend of a friend told me" posts criticial of ASA's mounts beginning to circulate have been made by Americans, or Paramount ME/Astro-Physics owners, or American Paramount ME/Astro-Physics owners.

Until anything substantial is offered, my jury is still undecided, because a lot of the criticism suddenly being levelled at ASA smells awfully like bitter disinformation to me. ASA's new mounts are threatening the currently accepted and established hierarchy, which is beginning to look a little old fashioned.

The ASA mounts seem wonderful, but they are very new, and it may well be that they aren't yet ready for primetime (although there are several ASA mount customers elsewhere who are saying otherwise), but it looks to me as if there is a lot of resistance from those who aren't happy to see their own once-best of breed mounts being relegated to the outdated category.

Since we're on the subject of unsubstantiated rumours, the latest chatter is that Takahashi are also developing a direct drive mount. There is nothing to support that yet, or at least not that I can see, but it makes sense. Technology advances so rapidly these days, and those who fail to advance with it get left behind.

Whatever the case, I'm going to sit back and let the early adopters take all the risks with these very expensive new toys! Good luck to them, because they look marvellous and I'd love to have one.

[David Pavlich]

You might be interested in this Youtube video. I was at the AIC this year...really cool, I might add, and spoke with the ASA rep for a bit. It didn't sound like there were problems, however....he is a rep.

David

[steppenwolf]

I hope they get their production issues resolved as well as the concept is great and it really is a beautifully engineered mount - I'd love one!

[harry page]

ant: Removed content! Completely off topic.

If you want to do a supplier review - we have a board for that.

[johninderby]

Oh dear......not very encouraging is it. Why do some companies seem to be clueless about how to treat a customer.

In contrast I ordered something from Astro Physics last week, and even though I was only spending a couple of hundred pounds, they were incredibly helpful and let me know exactly what was happening with my order at every stage until it was shipped. Also they answered any questions promptly and just generally made me feel that they really cared about my order.

John

[Marmite]

Hi

Slightly off topic , but I have been trying to buy a keller corrector of them for my newt , and I am afraid to say what a battle it has been to get anything out of them , even after they had my £1000 and still not got it !

After shaking my fist at them and contacting mr keller direct( not a ASA man ) I am promised it next week

But I would not deal with them again , if they can't talk to you when buying what hope of after sales service is there

Harry

There was a little bit of griping on the ASA Yahoo! Group recently about similar weak aspects of ASA's customer service. However an ASA person eventually chimed in with a bit of grovelling and promises to do better in future. A pity it was necessary, but at least they admitted the error of their ways and promised to pull their socks up.

It seems that they are struggling a wee bit under the load of orders, and the English language is most definitely not their greatest strength! That's no excuse for shoddy support, I agree, especially considering the value of their products, but at least it's not just like some corner shop on the high street ignoring you.

Now that PlaneWave have unveiled the direct drive mount they've been developing, and it appears that Takahashi may also be leaping aboard the direct drive bandwagon, there's likely to be some real competition about to liven things up and keep the other players on their toes. Europe versus Japan versus at least one Amercan manufacturer.

OTOH, Daniel Bisque has just stated that SB are not likely to be offering a direct drive mount anytime soon, and Roland Christen recently posted a message somewhere which generally badmouthed the direct drive concept, so it looks as if the two big Yank outfits will stick to offering "traditional" style mounts. They can target them at people who still image with film, and who ride about in horse-drawn carriages.

[The Orbiter]

When you see a company structure such as this one Astrosysteme Austria

you know the whole business concept can only be a disaster.

I am sure they'll come to their senses at some point - and if not, the banks will...

Pity, as great [on paper] and very expensive range of products they have.

[harry page]

Yes walter might be head of sales , but obviously does not like his work

Harry

[George]

I'm sure Synta at some point will come along and get this concept to work on a mass produced drive and with it a mass produced price.....hopefully

[ollypenrice]

Marmite,

I do not know which post you were taliking about, mine or the one on CN. There are no friends of friends on my post. The person who visited me is a professioanl at an astro education centre. They tried repeatedly to get their ASA mount to work and so did a technician from ASA. They did not succeed in getting anything like the claimed results and ended up rejectiong the mount. They are now looking into what other mount to go for. They are open to all possibilities. As I had a visiting AP at Les Granges that week the guy from the centre wanted to visit to talk to its owner, which he did.

I am not trying to spread rumours. I am informing fellow amateurs that there are stories of which they should be aware before spending a vast sum. It would be a simple matter to ask ASA to nominate a few satisfied customers. I find it significant that on their website they are only able to nominate one at present.

Preferring to build gear driven mounts is not analogous with sticking with the horse. Depending on software to control everything is very optimistic. It is now the biggest cause of car breakdowns. Would you drive a car which used sotware to connect the steering wheel to the front wheels? If so, I will say goodbye to you now! The situation will change when software engineers and computer makers become competent enough to make reliable products but that is very, very far from being true at the moment. Microsoft Works? Does it heck.

Olly

[brianb]

Would you drive a car which used sotware to connect the steering wheel to the front wheels?

Lots of people do ... computer assisted "variable assistance" power steering systems, with such a heap of servos in the way that if the electrics go down the wheel simply cannot be moved by manual force.

Personally I think that it should be illegal to manufacture or sell a vehicle that does not have full mechanical override on all major controls i.e. mechanical linkages with fail-safe removal of electrical assistance from them. Having had "fly by wire" throttles run away several times (and NOT on a Toyota) I simply do not trust electronics in the damp, salty environment in which motor vehicles are forced to operate.

The manufacturers are going this way as a cost saving measure - they can't be bothered to engineer reliable mechanical controls with a nice feel to them, so they design a pig's ear and try to turn it into something that feels nice by throwing electronics at the issues. And it's a good way of guranteeing repair business profits for their franchised dealers. Remember hand window winders - so much faster & more convenient than electric ones, they rarely failed & if they did you could fix them yourself.

[Brinders]

Lots of people do ... computer assisted "variable assistance" power steering systems, with such a heap of servos in the way that if the electrics go down the wheel simply cannot be moved by manual force.

Personally I think that it should be illegal to manufacture or sell a vehicle that does not have full mechanical override on all major controls i.e. mechanical linkages with fail-safe removal of electrical assistance from them. Having had "fly by wire" throttles run away several times (and NOT on a Toyota) I simply do not trust electronics in the damp, salty environment in which motor vehicles are forced to operate.

The manufacturers are going this way as a cost saving measure - they can't be bothered to engineer reliable mechanical controls with a nice feel to them, so they design a pig's ear and try to turn it into something that feels nice by throwing electronics at the issues. And it's a good way of guranteeing repair business profits for their franchised dealers. Remember hand window winders - so much faster & more convenient than electric ones, they rarely failed & if they did you could fix them yourself.

I have to disagree. Having owned and driven a variety of cars over four decades, I can honestly say that they have never been more relaible or easier to drive. Okay, so you can't just lift the bonnet these days and tinker wth the distibuter and points to alter ignitikon timing or adjust overhead valves yourself so easily, but now you rarely need to, and why would you want to?

Still, more on topic, telescope mounts have become more sophisticated and affordable in recent years, and I hope that wil continue.

Brinders

[The Orbiter]

.... Having had "fly by wire" throttles run away several times (and NOT on a Toyota) I simply do not trust electronics in the damp, salty environment in which motor vehicles are forced to operate.

We won't see "steer-by-wire" on cars anytime soon... If "s-b-w" was a reality I'd only use it if fitted to a Toyota .. at least they have the honesty and decency of recalling their cars as soon as a fault has been detected... Can't say the same for many many of their competitors.

off-topic I know. Sorry.

[Beyond_Vision]

Can we keep this on topic now guys

Regards

Kevin

[Marmite]

Marmite,

I do not know which post you were taliking about, mine or the one on CN. There are no friends of friends on my post. The person who visited me is a professioanl at an astro education centre. They tried repeatedly to get their ASA mount to work and so did a technician from ASA. They did not succeed in getting anything like the claimed results and ended up rejectiong the mount. They are now looking into what other mount to go for. They are open to all possibilities. As I had a visiting AP at Les Granges that week the guy from the centre wanted to visit to talk to its owner, which he did.

The post on CN was from a guy in France who stated that "a friend" was at an observatory which was returning three DDM85s because ASA were unable to get them to function correctly due to misbehaving software. The poster claimed that there was nothing wrong with the mounts aside from the software. He also claimed the ASA technician was incompetent.

Interestingly, the CN poster in France was the owner of a Paramount ME. The people I know who are the most critical of direct drive mounts are almost always owners of Paramount MEs. A club member who recently mortgaged his soul to Satan in order to purchase a Paramount ME seems to believe direct drive mounts are radioactive, but I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that he strutted and preened for weeks and hates the idea that his expensive mount may now have been 'obsoleted'.

I am not trying to spread rumours.

Nah!

I am informing fellow amateurs that there are stories of which they should be aware before spending a vast sum. It would be a simple matter to ask ASA to nominate a few satisfied customers. I find it significant that on their website they are only able to nominate one at present.

Check out the ASA Yahoo! Group. Quite a few satisfied customers there. Although you'll also find a few people complaining that everybody at ASA is an engineer who doesn't know how to work a telephone. Perhaps it's time for ASA to hire an English-speaking receptionist, preferably one with a very sultry voice.

Preferring to build gear driven mounts is not analogous with sticking with the horse. Depending on software to control everything is very optimistic. It is now the biggest cause of car breakdowns. Would you drive a car which used sotware to connect the steering wheel to the front wheels? If so, I will say goodbye to you now! The situation will change when software engineers and computer makers become competent enough to make reliable products but that is very, very far from being true at the moment. Microsoft Works? Does it heck.

Olly

These CCD things will never catch on. And who needs Goto? In my day we never wasted time with laptop computers!

Whether you like it or not, technology waits for no man or woman. Direct drive mounts promise great things and it's very likely they will deliver those things to amateur astronomers, and much sooner than you think. Why choose to deal with periodic error if there's an alternative? How stupid.

[ollypenrice]

Marmite, your 'Nah' is not n the best of taste as regards good manners. Perhaps you don't know that.

You have a pet theory about ASA detractors which may be true of all sorts of people whom you know and I don't. Unfortunartely it does not apply to any aspect of my post since there is not a Paramount owner to be seen anywhere near it.

I make a living using CCD imaging gear and laptops and Go To mounts. When I want to rail against them I will let you know. In a piece of dazzling intellectual subtlety I would like to suggest that one might like Go To mounts that work and dislike ones that don't.

I truth I am fascinated by direct drive and have been looking at the ASA with interest. It does work at professional level observatories. My information has nothing to do with the concept. It passes on a piece of info that came to me about ASA's application of the concept. It is a very software dependent product and the software will need to be good.

Olly

[Marmite]

Marmite, your 'Nah' is offensive.

Do you make a habit of being rude?

Nah!

You have a pet theory about ASA detractors and you don't want to let it go.

Postulate => Hypothesis => Theory => Law

I'm saying that many of the negative sentiments I've seen expressed about direct drive mounts have come from PME owners. Draw your own conclusions.

Unfortunartely it does not apply to any aspect of my post since there is not a Paramount owner to be seen anywhere near it.

Refer this CN thread: http://preview.tinyurl.com/ybcx6ta

The first post seems oddly familiar...

I make a living using CCD imaging gear and laptops and Go To mounts. When I want to rail against them I will let you know.

I expect you'll be too busy trying to guide out your periodic error to indulge yourself bashing PE-less direct drive mounts.

Well that was fun.

[Ant]

C'mon lads.

Play nicely - if you can't be nice then don't post.

[johninderby]

Direct drive mounts are still a developing technology in terms of the consumer priced mounts so there will naturally be teething problems along the way.

Why isn't everyone jumping on the bandwagon of direct drive straight away? It's a sound business strategy to let someone else go through all the problems and expense of actually making it work properly, and then coming in with your own version. If you don't have to underwrite all the development costs than you can also cut prices accordingly and it's goodbye to the original developers.

ASA needs to realise that top notch customer relations and support is absolutely essential. Customers may understand that this new technology will have it's teething problems, but they don't want to be treated as unpaid beta testers either.

Long term I think it's inevitable that direct drive mounts will dominate.

John

[NickH]

Can we IP log some of the people on here with low post counts, who mysteriously just pop up and defend stuff? Olly's reputation and commitment to quality is undoubted, and he always conducts himself (to my knowledge) in a manner that is both professional and courteous. On this subject of the ASA mounts, I cannot comment, but have had very similar exhanges in the past on products, where I state an opinion based on personal experience or communication with the experience of others whom I trust, only to find someone, who nobody knows, crawling out of the woodwork to "defend" (usually in an abusive manner) the product. This usually ends up being a dealer, manufacturer or someone with a vested interest in the product.

In this case, it may be that "marmite" (love him or hate him???) is none of the above, but let's keep it civil, and if you are connected with the product, have the decency to say so.

I saw this mount at Astrofest and am too very interested in the capabilities of direct drive... if it has got problems, then discussing them and hopefully encouraging the manufacturer to iron them out will, long term, be the best for all of us. What we don't want is another instance where a manufacturer bigs up a product, only to fail to deliver something of quality...

(and for the record, I know several people who have blown PME boards..... which at £11K is a bit naff, but doesn't stop it being one of the most desirable mounts out there)

[narrowbandpaul]

marmite,

i too find your posts slightly offensive. Olly is an experienced imager, running his own astro resort in france. Olly has earned the respect of fellow SGL members by his constantly high quality images, and knowledge on a wide range of subjects. I dont know that you have earned any respect by conducting yourself in this offensive and snide manner. Olly was passing on a rumour, and he stated that was all it was, regarding the current range of DDM mounts.

I too am sure that the DDM technology is going to dominate at some point, but it appears as if some have had problems in getting theirs to work?

why does this worry you so much? why are you defending them vehemently?

you must have a vested interested in this product, either dealer or employed by ASA, to have this forceful an opinion. So forceful in fact that you need to put down and ridicule other members. I am sure this is against SGLs code of conduct, which you agreed to behave by when joining the forum. I suggest you re-read these and modify you behaviour in this and other threads, or your SGL life may not be long lived.

An apology to Olly would be a start. There was no need to insult an innocent party.

Paul