16" and 20" Impressions from a Star Party I joined

[AstralFields]

I was fortunate enough to join a Star Party for a night under a sky of 21.30 SQL (measured on the spot by somebody) , so a solid Bortle 3.5. There were a bit of high altitude clouds but it got better as the night progressed.

Here are some of the key impressions I took with me, obviously they were based on limited observing time with the big scopes as there were literally lines of people waiting to have a peek at M51 and Orion.

• Aperture is absolutely everything. Even something as solid as M13 looked amazing in the 20" , not as amazing in the 16" and lousy by comparison in a Bino Combo Double Refractor 2x155mm with premium eyepieces attached. There were literally lines of people waiting to see M51 in the 20" , even the guy with the 16" came to check it out and he noticed a difference in the 20".
   
• Galaxy dust lanes are incredibly difficult to visually observe. Even with the 20" it was not obvious to the eye as it is with an astrophoto. Any other galaxies, we didn't even try. I assume observing the dust lanes has a lot more to do with having a Bortle 1,2 sky, instead of having a big telescope. I mean they were clearly there with the 20" , but they were not self-evident and easy to see.. You would wonder if you are really seeing something or the mind is just filling it up based on what should be there, as we know what to expect having seen the photos.
   
• This is entirely my personal opinion but eyepieces and the whole discussion around eyepieces is absolutely overblown. I did not see any lines of people to test some premium eyepieces or even many discussions around the types of eyepieces being used. Explore Scientific 100 , APM 84 , Morpheus 76.. it was all pretty much very very similar in my view. In fact the ES 100 did not feel comfortable to my eyes as I had to push really hard and really close with my eyes to get the benefit of the full FOV. I just didn't feel the whole 'space walk' experience... just another eyepiece with a field stop a bit further out than my 68 budget ones.  Sure .. they were better, but not 500$ better compared to my 30$ SVBony 'red lines'.
   
• Same goes with expensive O3 filters. The guys were putting some O3 filters for the Nebulas and yes they were making the image more contrasty , but I did not see any visible difference over what I am used to have with my cheap UHC filter from SVBony for like 25$ and 40$ for the 2". If there is a difference, it is VERY subtle and in my view not a 300$ difference, which is what those O3 likely cost.
   
• GoTo - There were two identical Sky Watcher 400p GoTo telescopes as you can see below. One of them spent the night observing, the other spent the night trying to solve it's GoTo system. As the guy probably didn't know how to Star Hop, he spent this amazing opportunity at this amazing place.. troubleshooting technical issues and playing around with cables and what have you not. A similar situation unfolded also with the amazing Bino 2x 155mm refractor. The guy with the manual 20" spent the night happily observing with zero issues and has little trouble finding the targets even with such a huge scope. This only solidified my opinion that GoTo is not something I want to invest in. Even the guy who had no issues told us that it took him a long time to optimize his battery, cabling and so on to prevent having those issues.
   
• Having quite a bit of experience with the 8" was really a good thing. This solidified my opinion that a worthwhile upgrade to my setup is going to 12". The 16" is simply way too much of a beast and clearly a two person scope. The guy who had used to have an 8" and a 12" and he confessed that it is not a good scope to take with you, only if you already have the place and space for a solid fixing.

The rest, you can check below:

 

[maw lod qan]

Very nice writeup!

I hope to have the opportunity to view through a real star cannon.

So far my 8" has given me a lot of joy!

[lunator]

Very nice report. 😀

Looking through a large aperture scope in decent skies is an amazing experience.  

Cheers

Ian

 

[saac]

Lovely report and really enjoyed your video. When I first saw M42 with a 16 inch Dob I felt like I was falling into the nebula, amazing experience with these large Dobs.  

Jim

[John]

Great report !

You make interesting points regarding premium eyepieces and filters.

When I've had the opportunity to observe with 20 inch dobsonians, I can remember the amazing views but not which eyepiece or filter was being used at the time 🙂

Star parties are great for getting a taste, even if brief, of a range of other equipment 👍

[Alan White]

Nice video and liked the hear your feedback and reaction to nice sized Newtonian scopes.
Interesting comments on the eyepieces, I do wonder if you wear glasses or not at the eyepiece, this makes a notable difference.
Thanks for sharing.

[AstralFields]

Just now, Alan White said:

Nice video and liked the hear your feedback and reaction to nice sized Newtonian scopes.
Interesting comments on the eyepieces, I do wonder if you wear glasses or not at the eyepiece, this makes a notable difference.
Thanks for sharing.

Oh yea, glasses are a complete deal breaker with some of these. I can't imagine using the Explore Scientific 100 degrees with glasses. Even without I had to push my eyeball to the eyepiece like I have to do it with a 25mm Plossl in order to see the entire FOV. 

Sure even when I couldn't see the entire FOV I was still seeing over 80 degrees of FOV from the 100 but this made me feel anxious and uneasy that I am not 'looking through the eyepiece as I am supposed to' types of feelings. 

APM had a much better eye relief.. the Morpheus as well. 

But so do my 30$ 'red line' SVBonys. The eye relief on them is amazing.

[Alan White]

49 minutes ago, AstralFields said:

APM had a much better eye relief.. the Morpheus as well. 

But so do my 30$ 'red line' SVBonys. The eye relief on them is amazing.

Interesting on the SVBony, not tried these.

I love the APM UFF, and Morpheus both very relaxing to use.
Mind you so are many others.

Keep on posting, your video was interesting.

[Mr Spock]

From the same Bortle 4 location I've looked though several large scopes up to 22" (which had an Ethos in it). The best view I got was with a StellaLyra 16" with 31mm Nagler and an OIII (don't know which one); the view of the Witch's Broom was mesmerising.

[Neutrinosoup]

Aperture is everything….very interesting write up.

Up until I bought an 8 inch dobsonian recently I was a refractor only person. When I first used the Dobsonian I couldn’t believe how silly I had been. I still think a lightweight 4 inch Apo like the Takahashi FC-100DC is an unbeatable grab and go scope. And my little 3 inch apo is my binocular substitute (lazy eye, so binoculars are useless to me)…..however neither match what I can see with the dobsonian.

You mentioned considering adding a 12 inch Dobsonian to your collection? I’d been debating adding an Orion Optics U.K. 10 inch with upgraded mirror cell…..simply because of size, weight and storage. Have you experience of lifting a 12 inch and ever compared it to a 10 inch? 
—> And to anyone else have any of you used a “standard” 12 vs a “premium mirror” 10?

[AstralFields]

1 minute ago, Neutrinosoup said:

Aperture is everything….very interesting write up.

Up until I bought an 8 inch dobsonian recently I was a refractor only person. When I first used the Dobsonian I couldn’t believe how silly I had been. I still think a lightweight 4 inch Apo like the Takahashi FC-100DC is an unbeatable grab and go scope. And my little 3 inch apo is my binocular substitute (lazy eye, so binoculars are useless to me)…..however neither match what I can see with the dobsonian.

You mentioned considering adding a 12 inch Dobsonian to your collection? I’d been debating adding an Orion Optics U.K. 10 inch with upgraded mirror cell…..simply because of size, weight and storage. Have you experience of lifting a 12 inch and ever compared it to a 10 inch? 
—> And to anyone else have any of you used a “standard” 12 vs a “premium mirror” 10?

I have experienced lifting the 10" in one go to move it a couple of meters. I have yet to lift a 12" but it should be fine when broken apart in two pieces. I am a relatively strong guy and can carry my 8" in one piece about 20 meters.

[Alan White]

19 minutes ago, Neutrinosoup said:

Aperture is everything….very interesting write up.

Up until I bought an 8 inch dobsonian recently I was a refractor only person. When I first used the Dobsonian I couldn’t believe how silly I had been. I still think a lightweight 4 inch Apo like the Takahashi FC-100DC is an unbeatable grab and go scope. And my little 3 inch apo is my binocular substitute (lazy eye, so binoculars are useless to me)…..however neither match what I can see with the dobsonian.

You mentioned considering adding a 12 inch Dobsonian to your collection? I’d been debating adding an Orion Optics U.K. 10 inch with upgraded mirror cell…..simply because of size, weight and storage. Have you experience of lifting a 12 inch and ever compared it to a 10 inch? 
—> And to anyone else have any of you used a “standard” 12 vs a “premium mirror” 10?

Dobsons vary in weight not just by size, but material of construction.
Many have a chipboard base, which is notably heavier than the metal one used by OOUK.
Some tubes are alloy, some steel, again a weight difference.

I have a 10 OOUK and can move it, I have a damaged back, so my lifting ability is reduced.
I would love larger, but unless kept sat in one suitable place and ready to use, would be beyond my ability to shift it, sadly.
Clearly for many others this would not be an issue.

 

[josefk]

I enjoyed that video and write up  @AstralFields - looks like a very cool event.

[LukeTheNuke]

Nice write-up!

As they say, aperture is king! Mind you, I have to say, I really enjoy looking through scopes of all sizes and types at star parties. They each have their own benefits and charm.

I had a Skywatcher 400P Goto for a while. I sold it as I found it a bit too heavy to keep managing on my own. I was worried I'd injure myself. The goto was not that much hassle, honestly, and I think it saved me quite a bit of time.

There would be the odd time where I'd set things up and then the target wouldn't be in the eyepiece. But most of the time, it worked well and saved me time. You could argue that when you are at a star party, provided it works (!), a goto will help you to make the most of those precious dark skies. Though some folks I have to say are lightning fast finding targets manually!

That said, when I get my next dob, I'm not that bothered about goto. I find manual encourages me to get to know the night sky better, and I find that enjoyable.

I think my favourite dob "pound for pound" was a Skywatcher solid tube 12 inch, manual. I found it okay to handle by myself, and it was very low on hassle. I found the optics great for the cost.

Yeah, with eyepieces, you pay a lot for usually pretty small gains. I have mostly Tele Vue eyepieces now, but I have a few eyepieces I got for I think it was about £20 to £30, and they're really good for the price.

re: 100 degrees, my favourite eyepiece is the 21 mm Ethos. I find the wide field of view useful. Sometimes, when I feel lazy, I just use the 21 mm Ethos for the whole session. I like seeing M81 and M82 in the same field of view, for example. It's easier for me to find my targets with a wider angle eyepiece when not using goto. But some folks might not enjoy the wide view.

That's one lovely thing about star parties. How you can hopefully get to try different gear and see what works for you / what you find worth the cost. And to see how big some of those dobs are! It can end up quite costly trying out eyepieces though...

Edited April 8 by LukeTheNuke

[PeterStudz]

In my limited experience a dark sky is absolutely everything and the best telescope is the one that you have with you. 

For example, I took a little 4.5” Newt on a wobbly old mount to a Bortle 2 site. I had to get there via aircraft, so taking anything much larger wasn’t an option. But the views I got of the Swan, Triffid and Lagoon nebula were absolutely stunning. I cannot even see these from my Bortle 7 back garden through my 8” Dob (visually, whatever I do/try they simply aren’t there) and I really doubt any amount of aperture would make much difference. OK, it would have been splendid to take a big aperture with me but it simply wasn’t viable.

[radiofm74]

32 minutes ago, PeterStudz said:

In my limited experience a dark sky is absolutely everything and the best telescope is the one that you have with you. 

For example, I took a little 4.5” Newt on a wobbly old mount to a Bortle 2 site. I had to get there via aircraft, so taking anything much larger wasn’t an option. But the views I got of the Swan, Triffid and Lagoon nebula were absolutely stunning. I cannot even see these from my Bortle 7 back garden through my 8” Dob (visually, whatever I do/try they simply aren’t there) and I really doubt any amount of aperture would make much difference. OK, it would have been splendid to take a big aperture with me but it simply wasn’t viable.

While the OP has obviously given me a tremendous bout of aperture fever and sent me scrambling through classifieds for a good GoTo Dob – but of the sort you can also use if GoTo fails you! – this post reminds me of a fundamental truth. I live under Bortle 9 and 6, with family and work constraints precluding trips to anything better than Bortle 4, and even then in full "nomadic"/"portable rig" mode. The best thing in the world is as much aperture as you can reasonably take under a dark(er) sky in your life situation! For me that's currently 8"… and even then, I usually sneak in a little quality refractor… ooooh the beauty of those star images and expansive fields… 

But note – there's a country house where I spend about a month every year. THAT could be a nice place for a light bucket… hmmm, lemme see those classifieds again…