Need to return my first scope, do I take the opportunity to get a different model.

[Urumiko]

 

Hi all. 

As someone who has always followed  cosmology and enjoyed dark sky photography (my camera is a Sony a6000 which weighs less than 1lb or half a kilo) I was delighted to receive my first telescope as a suprise Christmas present celestron astro master 130 EQ MD.(£220 on Amazon) Unfortunately on assembly I found a crack on the mount so we've opted to return it without trying it out.

I appreciate this is entry level price range but it also presents the opportunity to check if this model is best for my use case. Whatever replacement I opted for I'd have to get it from Amazon but I would be willing to add about 50-75% to the pot if needed.

Whatever I go for I know I would be very keen after learning the basics to try attach my camera and start doing multiple exposure stacking in a quest for better images. I suspect this is possible with this model but probably tricky with the motor being a very basic manual speed control. I'm a techie and the idea of automatic alignment/location/tracking is very appealing be that via onboard computer, smartphone app, or laptop but image quality is king so long as I can track for photography purposes. 

Any advice appreciated 😄

 

[Elp]

I wouldn't get a scope from Amazon, use a dedicated astronomy retailer like First Light Optics this forum sponsor.

Good thing about Amazon is they have a good returns policy so you can return the defective scope for a full refund.

Your query about a replacement, are you looking to image through a scope, image with your camera only or use the telescope for visual? If it's all three that budget isn't enough, your best option would be a ZWO Seestar.

If you want to use the camera as is for widefield tracked imaging, a mount like a Skywatcher Star Adventurer GTI will be decent, and for future it'll also take a small telescope.

Also, what do you want to image as it'll have a bearing on the recommendations.

[Cosmic Geoff]

Unless you buy a Seestar, serious imaging will require a four-figure bill for equipment and a steep learning curve for image processing and installing various bits of kit.

I suggest you buy Steve Richard's book "Making Every Photon Count" before buying anything related to imaging (other than the Seestar).

AFAIR your Astromaster does not have a good reputation, so best get a refund and see what FLO has to offer.

[happy-kat]

welcome

in that price range and what you've shared my thought would be https://www.firstlightoptics.com/beginner-telescopes/sky-watcher-starquest-102r-f49-achromatic-refractor-telescope.html

the ST102 I've seen used as a EEA telescope, it gives great wide field views and I expect can see the main belts on Jupiter though some chromatic aberration on the edge as a very bright planet. The tripod can be used in equatorial and I gather altaz mode too, plus there is a motor that can be bought to give basic tracking in EQ on one axis. Bang for buck aperture size is going to be a reflector on a manual mount but the best telescope is the one that get's used. Often the f5 reflectors like what you are returning do not reach focus with a mirrored camera (not sure on mirorless) as there is not enough inward focuser travel. There might be frustrations with the tripod but the ST102 telescope can be used on other astro mounts if the hobby grows.  What ever you decide I find it's about working within what I have. AstroLaVista has some easy watch videos on different starting telescopes and what you might do with them worth reading looking understanding more before making a choice.

The seestar does do quite amazing images looking at uploads

Another thought if you already have camera and numerous lenses put the budget to a mount only. Something  like the the skywacther az-gti on a sturdy photo tripod you might already have and use in altaz mode to start with. 'IF' you can get your camera to work with sharpcap that opens up live stacking to share with family. I suggested that mount as could take a telescope later for visual use (if within size/weight limitations). 

I think could start investigating what your camera could do now and what it's compatible with.

Edited January 11 by happy-kat

[Gfamily]

For imaging with the camera you have, you would be better advised to get a small refractor or a catadioptric scope like a SCT or a Maksutov.

Of these, a short refractor will be far easier to get deep space images - as tracking and guiding is a lot less critical. On the other hand, you should be able to get good images of the moon with the catadioptric scopes.

The 'advice' not to buy from Amazon is partly because they don't have the quality control needed to sell technical equipment, but mainly (in my view) because we need a healthy range of specialist dealers to allow us to get the less obvious products needed to go to the next level.

But you are where you are, given you're looking to 'trade up' on the replacement.

If you can't find something else, non astro, to use your Amazon credit, it's probably justified to buy from them. I can't advise which scope though, except to say that most Newtonian telescopes don't naturally work particularly well for astro (unless specifically designed for it).

Your camera is pretty good for starting with astro imaging, here's an article by Ian Morison about the similar A5000 for astro

https://www.ianmorison.com/the-sony-a5000-apsc-mirrorless-camera-an-astrophotography-bargain/

Ian's blog is well worth looking through. 

Edited January 11 by Gfamily

[Beardy30]

I have the startravel 102 and I can confirm it’s a quality scope - the CA s imo exaggerated and I have had a beautiful view of Julian’s the 4 moons with clear sight in Jupiters bands - i would highly recommend it 

Edited January 11 by Beardy30

[Urumiko]

Hi all.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.
Sorry if I wasn't clear enough, I take the point on not buying from amazon however the person who bought it for me opted to return for store credit so I'm locked in with them for the replacement. I will bear that in mind for accessories if I get the bug though. FLO seem a good store.
Also  I am not afraid of the computer/software/imaging side of things, I'm an IT professional, serial tinkerer and was a competition photographer for a while. I just know little of telescopes, but I assume all of that is mostly a  separate consideration.

Hopefully I can help hone in. after doing a bit more research tonight.

Yes absolutely I want to be able to observe with the eye and I appreciate  taking images through the telescope would be tricky, and understand it will likely require a lot of experimentation with questionable adapter configurations but it does seem its possible with Sony mirrorless cameras like mine. If its not amazing its ok I just want to try.

All that said After doing more research tonight I understand I need to set my expectations regarding max exposure time possible on cheap mounts, even those that track but I really love the idea of go to computer control.

I think I've got my eye on the The Celestron NexStar 130 SLT , which is a 130mm newtonian with larger aperture and is F/5. and seems reasonable build quality. Celestron also make a sony e-mount to T adapter for it. That said it is a little more than I intended to spend but I could afford it if its worth it.

The cheapest comparable I found was the  Celestron LCM 113 Newtonian, which for me sits at the perfect price point but is a smaller aperture, is F9 and still feels a little cheap in construction.

I like the look of the startravel 102 suggested but getting it with a computerised mount would break the bank.

Thoughts? 

Edited January 12 by Urumiko

[Gfamily]

6 minutes ago, Urumiko said:

Hi all.
I think I've got my eye on the The Celestron NexStar 130 SLT , which is a 130mm newtonian with larger aperture and is F/5. and seems reasonable build quality. Celestron also make a sony e-mount to T adapter for it. That said it is a little more than I intended to spend but I could afford it if its worth it.

The cheapest comparable I found was the  Celestron LCM 113 Newtonian, which for me sits at the perfect price point but is a smaller aperture, is F9 and still feels a little cheap in construction.
Thoughts? 

The issue with trying to use a Newtonian scope with a camera (dSLR or Mirrorless) is that in a Newtonian the primary image is usually formed inside the focus tube, and unless a low profile focus tube is fitted it will NOT be possible to get the image falling directly on the sensor, which is where you want it. 

You can get away with it by

• using a Barlow lens to increase the effective focal length - that can work, but reduces your field of view
• replace the standard focuser with a low profile focuser
• relocate the primary mirror a few cm up the OTA - this will reduce the effective aperture (unless you also replace the secondary with a larger one)

 

[Elp]

If you want to image DSO you'll need a tracker of some sort, even if you DIY a barn door tracker for your camera. I'd consider buying a Samyang 135mm f2 lens (Canon EF mount, it'll be better future proofed if you decide to image with an astro camera due to the longer backspacing compared to a Sony version) instead, paired with a tracker you'll get far better results with the Samyang than any cheap telescope, in fact for imaging it's better than most telescopes due to its speed, and general aberration free field and sharpness across the lens, even at F2.

AP isn't cheap, you realistically have to have a budget of minimum 2000 for a basic setup which is capable, reliable and repeatable night after night. Only the ZWO Seestar offers equivalent of this in a budget package.

I've done the cheap telescope thing, it's not worth it, it's extremely likely the bundled tripod for a start will be no good as it won't damp down vibrations well which will ruin any visual session and make imaging impossible, and I havent even mentioned the mount head yet. You need a decent equatorial mount for imaging, unless you plan on imaging solar system objects only. Want a stable starter scope, get a dobsonian due to the stable mounting.

Edited January 12 by Elp

[Cosmic Geoff]

14 hours ago, Urumiko said:

I think I've got my eye on the The Celestron NexStar 130 SLT , which is a 130mm newtonian with larger aperture and is F/5. and seems reasonable build quality. Celestron also make a sony e-mount to T adapter for it. That said it is a little more than I intended to spend but I could afford it if its worth it.

This outfit would be a reasonable starter for visual use, but its utility for imaging is limited. The SLT tripod is on the wobbly side and the mount is alt-azimuth.

[Elp]

If you can use your credit with third party sellers your Skywatcher options will be better on Amazon.

[Beardy30]

I would avoid the SLT mount for imaging if any kind and tbh it’s not great for visual - how about a small refractor int he AZI GTI  mount - I know it’s over budget but I doubt you get an AP up for less 

[Carbon Brush]

On 12/01/2024 at 00:16, Urumiko said:

the person who bought it for me opted to return for store credit so I'm locked in with them for the replacement.

Just leave the amazon credit in place and use it to buy anything else. Their credits take years to expire and of course amazon sell everything.
I can't stress enough to use an astro retailer. Can you ask amazon customer customer services about problems with the scope? No their robots and overseas call handlers don't have the foggiest which way around to look through a scope.

[Mandy D]

On 12/01/2024 at 00:33, Gfamily said:

The issue with trying to use a Newtonian scope with a camera (dSLR or Mirrorless) is that in a Newtonian the primary image is usually formed inside the focus tube, and unless a low profile focus tube is fitted it will NOT be possible to get the image falling directly on the sensor, which is where you want it. 

You can get away with it by

• using a Barlow lens to increase the effective focal length - that can work, but reduces your field of view
• replace the standard focuser with a low profile focuser
• relocate the primary mirror a few cm up the OTA - this will reduce the effective aperture (unless you also replace the secondary with a larger one)

 

I know this can be the case with standard visual Newtonians, but my Skywatchers (200P and 250PX) with standard (not low profile) focusers all provide an in-focus image at least 60 mm beyond the end of the focuser drawtube. I image with Nikon DSLRs, which have the sensor 46.5 mm in from the front surface of the lens mounting flange, the T2 adds 10 mm and I get focus with about 5 mm of outward focuser movement.

[Urumiko]

Thanks again all.

OK New plan of attack based on your responses and talking to a friend that is in to astrophotography.

I'm actually quite blown away by what's possible  with the 135mm Samyang and a good mount, but I would offend if I poopooed the gift of a scope and would still like to try one anyway.
So I think now my plan is to just get something with the best viewing experience in budget as long as I can get a basic smartphone or camera pic from it for now to share what I've seen.
I want to get something that is suitable to take to the beach/fields and get the best view of planets and hopefully things like andromeda or Orion nebula are reasonable to expect also?
I would like to bear in mind leaving the option that I could later buy a good tracking mount that could be used with the scope and or my camera.

Fuzzy vague images of saturn/jupiter + moons seems the signature sample image of the Newtonians vie mentioned so far.
I'm just checking out a website which lists the gear used to get photos to get an idea, but these are all stacked and tracked images.

So what will get me the sharpest views of my targets, and has a fairly universal mount/eyepiece/adapter compatibility?

And yes it really does have to be amazon for the initial purchase. 
  

[happy-kat]

do you already own a heavy duty tripod and ball head ?

I feel a refractor might be an idea with the closed tube on a beach, no idea about the sellers and I've not used any of the telescopes mentioned directly

Celestron starsense is a manual push to technology using a smartphone guiding you to the selected object, this is in budget there is a bigger aperture 102mm one just over in amazon wharehouse a return maybe and there's the Celestron 22065 AstroMaster 102AZ

https://www.amazon.co.uk/StarSense-Explorer-LT-70AZ-CelestronTelescope/dp/B088PPBC5Z/ref=sr_1_29_sspa?crid=CISU4HDQ28F2&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.VhJHn7ToRlyS8XD9x9pPOdYOq4xi0lHWKtleLLQ_4PVfVuErhNpb-16Aam8ZCBuk08E4GDkSYuwZ1ZAmgWP10q-cXFS2WkK2uGLI-jXg66mFn80w7jzUTuQXCCKu_8-KOwF4AUt_eeof5P5zkKuZmg.cX69lzwYTSdoEoZ7bpWyh_OsKhNiaSr-kH2s2TixnqI&dib_tag=se&keywords=celestron&qid=1705265112&sprefix=celestron%2Caps%2C74&sr=8-29-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9tdGY&psc=1

If you are thinking of distant terrestrial objects as well maybe a skywatcher skymax 90 as another idea as perhaps  can push to higher magnifications

Bresser do similar telescopes but I have not used or seen any, such as BRESSER NANO AR-80/640 AZ which is within budget perhaps an ongoing grab and go

If the return credit has a long date plenty of time for continued reading taking your time

Edit

I forgot the skywatcher heritage 130p, lots of reviews, the truss means the OTA length can be shorten for occasional photo, static mount generally need table. I saw a Jupiter moon transit shadow with my Heritage130p

 

 

Edited January 15 by happy-kat

[Elp]

The Heritage 90? But it's more expensive on Amazon than on FLO. Looks like goto can be added after with an added hand controller too. Others will need to comment on this scope+mount combo as I don't have experience with one but know the heritage name is recommended a lot. You'd need some sort of table to put it on though.

Edited January 14 by Elp

[happy-kat]

You can add synscan dongle to the virtuoso mount mentioned above.

[Nikolai De Silva]

Hello @Urumiko!

I have a Sky-watcher Starquest 130p and I am satisfied with it. These are what you can expect from a 130p Newtonian (especially Sky-watcher optics). These are some of my own lunar pics taken by using a cheap 720×1280 webcam. You can expect better views than this visually.I don't have my own pics of the planets. But you can really see like this!😊 (This is from the internet)

Edited January 15 by Nikolai De Silva

[JOC]

On 12/01/2024 at 00:16, Urumiko said:

so I'm locked in with them for the replacement

Well, technically you aren't.  You have amazon store credit - I imagine technically you can spend that on whatever you like.  If you can add 75% to the pot that alone might be a good chunk of what is needed to buy what you need from a proper telescope retailer.  Then you can put the credit towards, eyepieces, accessories, camera lenses or even just your next grocery order - save on your cash spent at Tesco for your next two shopping trips and spend your Amazon credit instead - then you can put the savings towards a scope from a better retailer 😄

Edited January 15 by JOC

[alacant]

14 hours ago, Urumiko said:

talking to a friend

+1
The best advice we can give to anyone starting is to go along to an astro club and see the equipment first hand. Between them, the members will have experience of everything on your shortlist and will be only too pleased to show you the hardware, help you set it up and get you started.

Cheers and HTH

[Shimrod]

On 12/01/2024 at 00:16, Urumiko said:

Hi all.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.
Sorry if I wasn't clear enough, I take the point on not buying from amazon however the person who bought it for me opted to return for store credit so I'm locked in with them for the replacement. I will bear that in mind for accessories if I get the bug though. FLO seem a good store.
Also  I am not afraid of the computer/software/imaging side of things, I'm an IT professional, serial tinkerer and was a competition photographer for a while. I just know little of telescopes, but I assume all of that is mostly a  separate consideration.
 

If you need to use the Amazon credit, it might be worth confirming that it can be used with Amazon payments - I had a quick look at the T&Cs of Amazon Pay and it seems like it is only gift cards that can't be used on third party sites.

One astronomy shop that take Amazon Pay is Tring Astro. I had a quick look at a few stores but this is the only one I could find on a quick check.

[Urumiko]

Hi all,

Thanks again.
Some excellent insight, suggestions, and well researched answers.

To be honest I think its all starting to make my head hurt and I've spent way too many hours trying to dance around a very limited budget and options. 

I think its clear something akin to a  Sky-Watcher Explorer-150PDS OTA, and an EQ3 or better mount would have been an ideal setup to get real mileage out of, but this is obviously a step up in budget, and the longer I look the more I'm inclined to not push the budget and see how I get on with starter gear first.

As such I've decided to opt for the skywatcher 130x900 with Eq2 motorised mount and see how I go.

Its basically the same scope I was gifted so shouldn't cause upset, but seems to address the 2 immediate concerns I had with the Celestron (fragile plastic parts on the tripod, and fiddly access to the motor controls, which I dont think has a quick release on the motor like the skywarcher eather).

It should be a reasonable platform to see if i stick with it, learn to tweak and columnate etc. See which issues I want to improve on the most, stability, optics, aperture, tracking etc.
If I find myself hungry for more I can explore better quality eyepieces, and if I stick with it long term, I can start looking for a better mount in the £600 range to build upon.

 

If any one has any suggestions on something i might be able to aim for as an easy target from my garden when initially trying it out at this time of year please let me know. I have a north facing garden and live in north east England.
I cant get too low in the sky at home as There are other houses around.

Edited January 17 by Urumiko

[Nikolai De Silva]

9 hours ago, Urumiko said:

As such I've decided to opt for the skywatcher 130x900 with Eq2 motorised mount and see how I go.

How about a 130/650 Parabolic mirrored Telescope?🤔 I think it may be better than a spherical mirror. You have choices from Sky-watcher; Explorer 130p, Heritage 130, Starquest 130p, ... We have a Starquest 130p which you don't need to collimate (I haven't found any issues though). It gives sharp views with no notable aberrations, and also the mount is easy and satisfying (you can either use it as an eq mount or an alt az mount). 

Also the heritage 130, a well reputed Telescope with the same optics. The advantage of this is you don't have the issue of a wobbly tripod. 

The explorer, really the same tube of the Starquest, but the mount is different (eq2) and is collimateble. The design is also changed.

The Explorer, Heritage and the Starquest come with the same Parabolic optics and I think they are better (Your choice, right🙂). They are also not expensive and you can surely afford. 

Hope that this helps you!😊

Nikolai.

[happy-kat]

I hadn't been able to find the Star quest on Amazon as that would have been the suggestion I would have made as a motor can be fitted.

To the OP to see what's in the sky stellarium is a great planetarium for your PC free. 

Looking north right now I think the double cluster NGC884 would be good start and learning to pick out the constellations by eye

The Moon and planets are in the South right now

Enjoy your telescope