NINA, framing issues

[Likwid]

Hello Everyone,

I just built a portable rig with an Astro-Tech AT72EDII and ASI294MC Pro on a Sky-Watcher Star Adventurer GTi. Everything works great currently after ironing out a lot of small issues, except for one large issue with framing in NINA. I can Plate Solve normally with any single target, and NINA will center the target in the image with no issues. When I search for a target, load it into Framing and try to either create a mosaic, or even just try to move a target somewhere other than perfectly center of the frame, NINA has no idea what to do and usually places the target mostly out of frame. Oddly, it thinks it plate solved correctly. I have tried using different sources, and once I have my mosaic or new frame lined up where I want it, I hit "Load Image" to refresh. All the coordinates are fine and I am able to determine my camera angle accurately. I thought maybe my focal length or pixel size was wrong, but everything was triple checked. Another odd thing, is that every once in a while NINA freaks out and when I am plate solving it will send my scope way off course. I am using 10 second exposures and usually whatever DSO I am trying to image is shown in the frame so I can verify the positioning. I also completely rebuilt the PC that was running NINA with all fresh drivers and settings in case there was something outdated and still had the same symptoms after. Has anyone else had this issue, or have any ideas on how I might go about resolving it? Thank you in advance!

[Anthonyexmouth]

10 sec exposure seems a very long time. Even at f6 on my old ed80 with the same camera 5 sec was always ample. 

[Likwid]

Thanks for the reply! NINA defaults to 5 seconds, but I figured that a little more was better when it was trying to plate solve. Do you think having too many stars visible might be throwing it off?

[Craig a]

Could be slight star trailing throwing it off with 10 sec subs but that’s just a guess 

[Likwid]

Thanks for the reply! I will change it back to 5 seconds and see if that helps.

[OK Apricot]

23 minutes ago, Craig a said:

Could be slight star trailing throwing it off with 10 sec subs but that’s just a guess 

I found this as well. When I first started using it to get familiar (before buying my imaging camera) it was set to 3 seconds and worked a treat. I then got the imaging camera and with a dual band filter had to increase exposure time as 3 wasn't enough. I went up to 9s which lead to trailing so the solve would fail every time. I lowered it to 6s and its worked without issue. 

[newbie alert]

3 minutes ago, OK Apricot said:

I found this as well. When I first started using it to get familiar (before buying my imaging camera) it was set to 3 seconds and worked a treat. I then got the imaging camera and with a dual band filter had to increase exposure time as 3 wasn't enough. I went up to 9s which lead to trailing so the solve would fail every time. I lowered it to 6s and its worked without issue. 

Why is it trailing after 9 secs? 

[teoria_del_big_bang]

Well that surprises me that 10 seconds should cause an issue, I have it set at 8 seconds. Normally the mount will be tracking after the slew so even if guiding isn't enabled at 10 seconds with mount tracking there should not be much in the way of star trailing. But can't argue if @OK Apricot has seen the issue.
If that does not cure it then  maybe explain what you mean exactly by saying NINA has no idea what to do. I take it you move the fram about to get your desired framing and then click on "Slew and Centre" what exactly happens in NINA ?

Steve

 

[teoria_del_big_bang]

3 minutes ago, newbie alert said:

Why is it trailing after 9 secs? 

TBH that was my first thoughts, especially as NINA wil first slew to where it thinks the target should be and then enable tracking (not sure if it enables guiding or not)  before taking the first image, but even tracking alone should not show any trailing with 10 seconds unless PA was way off.

Steve

Edited October 18, 2022 by teoria_del_big_bang

[Craig a]

2 minutes ago, teoria_del_big_bang said:

TBH that was my first thoughts, especially as NINA wil first slew to where it thinks the target should be and then enable tracking (not sure if it enables guiding or not) but even tracking alone should not show any trailing with 10 seconds unless PA was way off.

Steve

That could be part of the issue I.e polar alignment unless the mount isnt tracking for some reason 

Edited October 18, 2022 by Craig a

[Likwid]

4 minutes ago, teoria_del_big_bang said:

Well that surprises me that 10 seconds should cause an issue, I have it set at 8 seconds. Normally the mount will be tracking after the slew so even if guiding isn't enabled at 10 seconds with mount tracking there should not be much in the way of star trailing. But can't argue if @OK Apricot has seen the issue.
If that does not cure it then  maybe explain what you mean exactly by saying NINA has no idea what to do. I take it you move the fram about to get your desired framing and then click on "Slew and Centre" what exactly happens in NINA ?

Steve

 

If I frame, and reload the image so it is centered in the framing screen and then hit slew and center, it will "successfully" plate solve. When I look at the image it took to plate solve, my target is half off the frame. For example, last night I wanted to do a 2 frame mosaic of NGC 6960 and NGC 6992. I had it perfectly framed and angled in the framing screen, but in the plate solving image, NGC 6992 was in the top right of the screen, and only half of it was showing. I verified the coordinates in the bottom left were changing with me moving the window around as well.

[teoria_del_big_bang]

Just now, Craig a said:

That could be part of the issue I.e polar alignment unless the mount isnt tracking 

That needs checking it is tracking I guess as it certainly should be doing and I am not even sure there is an option to stop it tracking I thought that was just how NINA worked, there may be an option to stop it guiding, again unless I power my rig up not sure about that.

[newbie alert]

If it's trailing after a 9 sec sub that could be the reason it's not framed correctly, longer it takes to get your guiding etc going the more off frame that it is

[teoria_del_big_bang]

2 minutes ago, Likwid said:

If I frame, and reload the image so it is centered in the framing screen and then hit slew and center, it will "successfully" plate solve. When I look at the image it took to plate solve, my target is half off the frame. For example, last night I wanted to do a 2 frame mosaic of NGC 6960 and NGC 6992. I had it perfectly framed and angled in the framing screen, but in the plate solving image, NGC 6992 was in the top right of the screen, and only half of it was showing. I verified the coordinates in the bottom left were changing with me moving the window around as well.

Forgive me if I am misunderstanding. Just taking things step by step:-

So forgetting the mosaic attempt for now.
If you want to image a single framed target does it all work correctly, i.e. does it slew to target, take an image, plate solve, determine the error then slew slightly again and repeat that sequence, maybe several times until it centres the target  within acceptable limits ?

Steve

[Craig a]

5 minutes ago, Likwid said:

If I frame, and reload the image so it is centered in the framing screen and then hit slew and center, it will "successfully" plate solve. When I look at the image it took to plate solve, my target is half off the frame. For example, last night I wanted to do a 2 frame mosaic of NGC 6960 and NGC 6992. I had it perfectly framed and angled in the framing screen, but in the plate solving image, NGC 6992 was in the top right of the screen, and only half of it was showing. I verified the coordinates in the bottom left were changing with me moving the window around as well.

Do you use eq mod? Do the dates, times, lat and longitude you are at match in both programs if they don’t that could cause an issue too

again just throwing some suggestions out there 

[OK Apricot]

16 minutes ago, newbie alert said:

Why is it trailing after 9 secs? 

I'm assuming the mount hadn't started tracking, but a thought that's just occurred to me is it could be that the solve began before the mount was settled. Not sure but the stars were not round. 

[Likwid]

Just now, teoria_del_big_bang said:

Forgive me if I am misunderstanding. Just taking things step by step:-

So forgetting the mosaic attempt for now.
If you want to image a single framed target does it all work correctly, i.e. does it slew to target, take an image, plate solve, determine the error then slew slightly again and repeat that sequence, maybe several times until it centres the target  within acceptable limits ?

Steve

Yes, when I pick a single target and plate solve, everything works flawlessly. If I got into Sky Atlas, pick a target and put it in the sequencer, then plate solve, everything is fine. If I try to change the framing at all in NINA it doesn't frame the target correctly. Whether I want to make a target offset in the frame, or create a mosaic it fails in the same way. That is what is confusing to me, it works on a single default target perfectly. When I try to edit the framing, even slightly, it fails.

[teoria_del_big_bang]

5 minutes ago, newbie alert said:

If it's trailing after a 9 sec sub that could be the reason it's not framed correctly, longer it takes to get your guiding etc going the more off frame that it is

I am not sure if it is me misunderstanding things here but even without guiding and even some slight PA error 10 seconds should not give significant trailing after 10 seconds --- Should it, am I seeing this all wrong ?
NINA should be enabling tracking (if not guiding) and that should be sufficient, if its not tracking then it would never work.

Steve
 

[Likwid]

3 minutes ago, Craig a said:

Do you use eq mod? Do the dates, times, lat and longitude you are at match in both programs if they don’t that could cause an issue too

again just throwing some suggestions out there 

I am using the Sky-Watcher app for my PC and have the mount connected directly to my PC via USB. I can't use EQMod for the Star Adventurer GTi. In the app, I manually set the Latitude and Longitude based on what I have on my main scope that has worked for years. The one odd thing about the Sky-Watcher app is that I have no place to enter altitude. When I try to sync it with the inputted data in NINA it says that it can't sync. My mount thinks I am at 0 meters, and I have NINA set to 550 meters. From my understanding of Plate Solving though, it takes an image and analyzes the star patterns to figure out where to aim the mount. Could my altitude throw off the Plate Solving process like that?

[Craig a]

This is going to be a simple fix it usually is, without setting my gear up and running through the steps your doing I’m just guessing 😂

[scotty38]

Just trying to understand what's happening here.

Are you saying what you see in framing and plate solving are different?

If so then that's not unusual.

When in framing if you click on "determine rotation from camera" then you'll get a true view. If I've misunderstood then just ignore me.......

 

[Likwid]

Just now, scotty38 said:

Just trying to understand what's happening here.

Are you saying what you see in framing and plate solving are different?

If so then that's not unusual.

When in framing if you click on "determine rotation from camera" then you'll get a true view. If I've misunderstood then just ignore me.......

 

Yup! my whole process is this: Type NGC 6992 into Sky Atlas, click Set as Framing Assistant, then in Framing Assistant, I click Determine Angle, and it updates the angle of the preview window to correctly show the framing that my telescope "sees". If I move the rectangle in the preview window, the coordinates update. I click "Load Image" once I have what I want framed whether it is just one frame or a mosaic so it will correctly fill the preview area. (I have done it with and without this step with the same results) I click on Slew and Center and it works its Plate Solving magic. When I look at the image that it took when Plate Solving was successful, the target is not nearly where I placed it in the frame in the Framing Assistant window even though it says that it was successful.

[Likwid]

9 minutes ago, Craig a said:

This is going to be a simple fix it usually is, without setting my gear up and running through the steps your doing I’m just guessing 😂

And that is why it is so frustrating lol. I have wasted 2 or 3 clear nights trying to figure this out. I am sure it is something really small that I am missing!

[teoria_del_big_bang]

10 minutes ago, OK Apricot said:

I'm assuming the mount hadn't started tracking, but a thought that's just occurred to me is it could be that the solve began before the mount was settled. Not sure but the stars were not round. 

That could be significant, there is a settle time somewhere in NINA that should at least be a couple of seconds but the fact it works with a single frame and not when you try to offset the framing in the framing wizard is very odd.

I do not think the altitude will cause an issue I have had mine set wrong many times, although I am only at 180M anyway and many times it was set at zero.

I wonder is it just the angle of rotation that is causing it to fail, maybe the rotation direction needs inverting (just a way out thought) but I l know when I fitted my auto rotator and it was wrong it just never worked, it kept tryung to rotate and centre but eventually gave up. I know you are manually rotating camera but I wonder if when setting to 2 frames whilst the angle has not been solved can cause an issue, 
Maybe try selecting a single frame in middle of image and slew till it is centred (but not rotated) then determine the rotation angle and rotate the camera till the anlge is correct, or in acceptable limits, and then change the framing or select two frame mosaic and try again.

Steve

[jjosefsen]

I think this is a procedural mistake somewhere, but without seeing what you do it is really hard to guide you. But I haven't heard of anyone with the same issue like this.

Could you take some step by step screenshots or even better a video?

What are your pointing tolerance settings?

https://nighttime-imaging.eu/docs/develop/site/tabs/options/platesolving/#pointing-tolerance

 

Edit: OK that explanation you gave while i was writing this, sounds ok.

Edited October 18, 2022 by jjosefsen
OP posted update