Cable woes - advice please

[StuartT]

I seem to have endless problems with cables. Cameras don't always connect, images down't always download, cameras disconnect when cables move etc.

I think part of this is a physical issue. USB plugs are terribly flimsy and loose fitting for a demanding moving system like a telescope rig. I never seem to be able to find the right way to drape my cables around the scope so they don't get pulled or snagged. See photos for how I am set up - advice please!

But another issue is the electrical quality of the cables. Some USB cables just seem very poor. Can anyone recommend really good ones?

[tooth_dr]

I only use Lindy USB cables now, buy direct from Lindy, the delivery is quick and the cables come in a range of sizes too.

[teoria_del_big_bang]

Regarding power distribution I am pretty much the same as yourself using the ultimate power pox and since getting rid of cheaper hubs AND using only Lindy USB cables same as @tooth_dr never had an issue at all.

Looking at the image it looks a nice setup but what is all that tape or something wrapped around the power cable to the UPB ?  Could that cable be giving you an issue ?

Steve

[teoria_del_big_bang]

Regarding draping the cables you look to have a fair bundle of cables looping back to below the scope whereas I only have 2, the 12V supply to the UPB and one good quality USB3 cable. I route everything then to the UPB except the mount which goes direct to my PC as the power and USB connections do not move with the scope I find this a better solution.

Although that should still not cause the issues you are having but I would keep any looping cables that move to a minimum.

Then however many cables you have to get back to earth they need fixing at some point  on the scope, but do not tie-wrap really tightly and maybe wrap something soft around the cables first, then use fairly wide tie-wrap (not thin ones that can curt into cables, or better a 3D printed clamp or similar. The leave a nice large loop of cables that will suffice for any position of the scope without any danger of getting trapped, and then secure the other end to the fixed part of the mount in a similar manner to how it was to the scope.  The idea is that the only portion of cables to move is this loop and between the fixed points and the connectors they never move.
Then to keep all cables in the loop neat and tidy use velcro wraps (not tie wraps) these are easy to remove if needed and they cannot gut into the cables or squash them.

Steve

Edited October 18, 2022 by teoria_del_big_bang

[scotty38]

How long is your USB 3 cable from PC to powerbox?

The reason I ask is that I just moved my mini pc OFF my scope as part of my Obs build. Why you ask? Well because I added a cloudwatcher plus the dome USB made it easier to have one USB running from the PC to the scope..... Therefore I added a 3m Lindy USB 3 cable (no issues with any of my other Lindy cables) but since I've done this I've had a few issues, mainly guide related but still from pc to mount.

I've stripped everything back down as I'm sorting my permanent power this week so will revisit my issues later but wondered if you're seeing something similar?

[Fegato]

I also use Lindy cables. For DSO imaging, I also force everything to USB 2. This is generally more stable than USB 3 in my opinion (and others too), and you just don't need the USB 3 speed for long exposure imaging (and when I say long exposure, it's fine for me with 5 second imaging (full frame 24mp) plus 2-3 second guiding).

As for where to put the cables, I'm fortunate not to have that issue - the through mount cabling offered by the CEM120 is a real boon. My cables are a bit messy on the OTA, but I can just wrap them up tight with velcro round the tube and nothing moves!

 

[StuartT]

2 hours ago, teoria_del_big_bang said:

Looking at the image it looks a nice setup but what is all that tape or something wrapped around the power cable to the UPB ?  Could that cable be giving you an issue ?

Steve

Actually that is the cable taking power from the PSU to the UPBv2. Gravity pulling on the cable started to break the joint with the plug. I tried to find a replacement cable but it seems Pegasus don't make them as spares and it's impossible to find one elsewhere (due to the XT60 connector). So I repaired it with epoxy and tape. I don't think that's the problem. 

2 hours ago, teoria_del_big_bang said:

Regarding draping the cables you look to have a fair bundle of cables looping back to below the scope whereas I only have 2, the 12V supply to the UPB and one good quality USB3 cable. I route everything then to the UPB except the mount which goes direct to my PC as the power and USB connections do not move with the scope I find this a better solution.

Although that should still not cause the issues you are having but I would keep any looping cables that move to a minimum.

Then however many cables you have to get back to earth they need fixing at some point  on the scope, but do not tie-wrap really tightly and maybe wrap something soft around the cables first, then use fairly wide tie-wrap (not thin ones that can curt into cables, or better a 3D printed clamp or similar. The leave a nice large loop of cables that will suffice for any position of the scope without any danger of getting trapped, and then secure the other end to the fixed part of the mount in a similar manner to how it was to the scope.  The idea is that the only portion of cables to move is this loop and between the fixed points and the connectors they never move.
Then to keep all cables in the loop neat and tidy use velcro wraps (not tie wraps) these are easy to remove if needed and they cannot gut into the cables or squash them.

Steve

The looping cables you see are mostly just from the UPBv2 to the cameras. The reason there is so much cable length is that I don't want it wrapping too tight when the mount slews and flips. As it is, whenever I make major movements or a meridian flip happens, I have to go outside and 'supervise' to move any cables that are in danger of snagging. It's a real pain and there must be a better way of doing this. If only we didn't have to connect stuff with cables!
 

I only have two going 'off scope' - the power from the PSU (which sits on the tripod instrument tray) and the USB back into the house to my laptop. The EQ8 has a hub built in, but apparently it doesn't support USB 3.0!! (a known issue), so I can't make use of it as cameras need a fast connection.

1 hour ago, scotty38 said:

How long is your USB 3 cable from PC to powerbox?

about 15m. It runs from my laptop in the house out to the scope.

15 minutes ago, Fegato said:

I also use Lindy cables. For DSO imaging, I also force everything to USB 2. This is generally more stable than USB 3 in my opinion (and others too), and you just don't need the USB 3 speed for long exposure imaging (and when I say long exposure, it's fine for me with 5 second imaging (full frame 24mp) plus 2-3 second guiding).

this is intersting. I understood you needed the speed of USB3.0 for deep sky cameras? When you say 5 second imaging, what do you mean? Not exposure, I assume.

[Fegato]

42 minutes ago, StuartT said:

 

this is intersting. I understood you needed the speed of USB3.0 for deep sky cameras? When you say 5 second imaging, what do you mean? Not exposure, I assume.

Yes,  I have a RASA 11...  sometimes I do imaging runs with just 5 second exposures, it's just so fast. More normally it's 20 or 30 seconds, but I have shot 100s of 5 second images while guiding (for dithering if nothing else). USB 3 comes into its own for video capture really - so planetary or other lucky imaging. It's not needed for DSO "long" exposures.

[scotty38]

44 minutes ago, StuartT said:

about 15m. It runs from my laptop in the house out to the scope.

 

That's way too long I believe, way too long

[Fegato]

6 minutes ago, scotty38 said:

That's way too long I believe, way too long

Yes I'd agree with that. I couldn't get guaranteed stability even with a 5m USB active cable. In the end I gave up and put a mini PC on the tray under the scope! This keeps all the cables reasonably short, and allows me to access using MS Remote Desktop from anywhere in the house with my Macbook (I connect the mini PC to my house network using a long ethernet cable).

[Budgie1]

I never had any issues using USB3 from PPBA connected to a 15m active USB3 extension cable. It was very fast with image downloads from the mount to the laptop. It was powered by the PPBA at one end and the laptop at the other but worked just fine.

Now I'm in the Obsy, the PPBA is connected to the laptop by a 5m Lindy USB3 cable (not active) and I've not had any problems yet.

As for cable management. I have the PPBA on the mount, I change scopes occasionally so only want to swap what's necessary. I have two dew heater cables, camera data & power + guide scope data all bunched together running along the side of the scope and down the axis of the mount to the PPBA. I also have mount power & EQDIR running from the PPBA to the mount. This just leaves one main PSU cable from the pier to the PPBA which I run alongside the 5m USB3 cable.

To keep things secure, I use the shortest cables possible, THESE "hook & loop" cable ties and some cable tide sleeve that I had laying around.

[Elp]

Since I bought all new cables from Kennable no issues now, short, long, 12v extensions, they all work fine.

I try to keep stuff off the OTA but the asiair is there, so I bought all 0.5m usb cables for the cameras so one less thing to catch, velcro straps are useful in such situations to keep things tidy, one of the best ones I use is a thin 5mm wide one around 0.5m long, it doesn't make much noise in the night to unravel and due to its width can be adapted in a multitude of ways to secure things.

Edited October 18, 2022 by Elp

[scotty38]

I never had any issues until, as I said above, I moved my mini pc off my scope and connected up with a 5m USB3. It may all be coincidental but .....

[tomato]

 @StuartT, your cabling is positively pristine compared to mine, I start out with good intentions but with up to 3 scopes on the mount, it quickly gets out of hand. However, I rarely encounter problems, most of the spaghetti moves with the scopes, the trailing cables are two usb cables  from the scope mounted hubs and two heavy duty 12v power cables. I just help them along during a meridian flip. I have used 10 metre powered usb extensions for around 3 years, to date I have had one failure, not intermittent, it just died and stayed dead.

[StuartT]

Thanks everyone. I have bought a bunch of Lindy cables and today, I am going to re-cable everything. I think I'm also going to try out the through hub on the mount. I've not heard good reports, so I've never actually tried to use it. But I'm going to see if it might actually work ok after all (because that would reduce my trailing and snagging possibilities)

[Stuart1971]

On 18/10/2022 at 16:28, scotty38 said:

That's way too long I believe, way too long

Yes totally agree, it may be fine at that length over a USB 2 repeater cable, but you need USB3 and that won’t work well over about 5m…. IMHO…

[Stuart1971]

6 minutes ago, StuartT said:

Thanks everyone. I have bought a bunch of Lindy cables and today, I am going to re-cable everything. I think I'm also going to try out the through hub on the mount. I've not heard good reports, so I've never actually tried to use it. But I'm going to see if it might actually work ok after all (because that would reduce my trailing and snagging possibilities)

I don’t understand why you would have trailing and snagging issues when using the UPB, the only cable you should have going to ground is the power cable, all the other will move with the mount, as they all go from devices on the scope to the UPB which moves with is all….🤔🤔

[teoria_del_big_bang]

4 minutes ago, Stuart1971 said:

I don’t understand why you would have trailing and snagging issues when using the UPB, the only cable you should have going to ground is the power cable, all the other will move with the mount, as they all go from devices on the scope to the UPB which moves with is all….🤔🤔

That was my point and what I did not totally understand about the OPs setup. Mime is like that , except I have 2 cables as my PC is mounted on the pier / tripod not with the scope so it has one USB 3 cable 2M long (or 3 M not sure now) .
I also do not route my mount USB and 12V through the UPB otherwise with the UPB mounted on the scope this adds 2 more cables that have to be in a loop to allow movement. These cables come direct from my PC mounted on the pier / tripod as they then do not have to move.

Good luck @StuartT with trying the mounts hub.

Steve

[Stuart1971]

2 hours ago, teoria_del_big_bang said:

That was my point and what I did not totally understand about the OPs setup. Mime is like that , except I have 2 cables as my PC is mounted on the pier / tripod not with the scope so it has one USB 3 cable 2M long (or 3 M not sure now) .
I also do not route my mount USB and 12V through the UPB otherwise with the UPB mounted on the scope this adds 2 more cables that have to be in a loop to allow movement. These cables come direct from my PC mounted on the pier / tripod as they then do not have to move.

Good luck @StuartT with trying the mounts hub.

Steve

I have  the UPB and all my cables come from this with no issues at all, just the one power cable to the UPB, although the power cable to the mount, does have a small loop in it to allow for movement without snagging…👍🏻

[teoria_del_big_bang]

10 minutes ago, Stuart1971 said:

I have  the UPB and all my cables come from this with no issues at all, just the one power cable to the UPB, although the power cable to the mount, does have a small loop in it to allow for movement without snagging…👍🏻

I hope the mount hub route helps then.
Maybe then if it is just one cable it is not stiff enough to make a nice loop and having two or 3 clumped together might be better, Like I say I am lucky and I removed the hub and polarscope rom my IOptron mount so I could pass the two cables right through the middle of the mount, but on my HEQ5 where I did have a few cables I had this loop and so long as I secured one end of the loop to the scope, or saddle of the mount, and the other to the non moving part of the mount, making the loop no bigger than it needed to then the scope could slew to wherever possible and the loop would keep the cables away from anything moving, easier said than done I know and I have seen a lot of threads about cable management due to similar issues you are having.
I think one main thing that helped is making the loop start towards the camera end of the scope set up, not hanging down from the middle of the scope itself where the UPB is likely to be mounted but secure the cable(s) so the scope and imaging train (making sure the focusser can move the drawtube in and out, that in itself seems to keep the loop clear of anything it could catch on.
Also my scopes are not the size yours is which may not help.

Steve

[ollypenrice]

The owners in the robotic shed I host have all gravitated towards a system as shown above. Cables from front and rear converge near the middle of the saddle plate and then head down towards the upper end of the C/W bar. From there the cables drop to the floor and head for the PC.

At the point of convergence they can be attached close to the dovetail. They can also be attached to relieve stress much closer to their points of origin.

The use of 'office' cables, sockets and plugs in an astro environment remains a perennial problem. However, the top of the C/W bar is the point of least movement as cables leave the rig. Highly recommended.

Olly

 

Edited October 22, 2022 by ollypenrice
Typo

[StuartT]

On 18/10/2022 at 17:28, Budgie1 said:

I never had any issues using USB3 from PPBA connected to a 15m active USB3 extension cable. It was very fast with image downloads from the mount to the laptop. It was powered by the PPBA at one end and the laptop at the other but worked just fine.

I agree. I have never had data issues with my long, 15m powered USB cable. My problem is snagging.

On 22/10/2022 at 11:08, Stuart1971 said:

I don’t understand why you would have trailing and snagging issues when using the UPB, the only cable you should have going to ground is the power cable, all the other will move with the mount, as they all go from devices on the scope to the UPB which moves with is all….🤔🤔

There are two cables going from the ground to the UPBv2 - a power cable to my PSU and a USB cable. Those tend to get snagged when the scope slews. But in addition to that, I have a USB connection from the UPBv2 to the mount and also one to the camera (which is a long way back). Although the camera one obviously moves in tandem with the scope (and thus UPBv2), the mount one doesn't (because the scope moves relative to the mount base where the USB input is). So I have to have that long enough to give the scope freedom to move. 

On 22/10/2022 at 14:31, teoria_del_big_bang said:

I hope the mount hub route helps then.

Initial indications are that the mount hub can indeed manage a USB3 connection. My ASI2600MC is managing to send images to the laptop. I had to buy some additional cables to go from the mount power output (which is a DC5525 plug to an XT60 plug on the UPBv2 - not easy to find!). So I am optimistic that I may be able to manage the mount hub solution after all. 

 

On 22/10/2022 at 19:18, ollypenrice said:

The owners in the robotic shed I host have all gravitated towards a system as shown above. Cables from front and rear converge near the middle of the saddle plate and then head down towards the upper end of the C/W bar. From there the cables drop to the floor and head for the PC.

At the point of convergence they can be attached close to the dovetail. They can also be attached to relieve stress much closer to their points of origin.

The use of 'office' cables, sockets and plugs in an astro environment remains a perennial problem. However, the top of the C/W bar is the point of least movement as cables leave the rig. Highly recommended.

Olly

 

Thanks Olly. I'd not thought of this Y-shaped configuration, but I can see that might help

Edited October 25, 2022 by StuartT

[StuartT]

Ok, problem solved! It turns out that the hub on the mount works just fine!

 

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by StuartT