Soon to make first camera purchase

[OK Apricot]

Evening all, 

It's getting closer to that time where I pull the trigger on my first astro camera. The closer it gets, the more reading I do. A short while back I'd narrowed down my options to the ASI533MC Pro and the ASI294MC Pro. My chosen method has changed slightly in that I won't be going for the ASI Air, rather using my laptop, so I'm not limited to ZWO cameras and hav, presumably, more options. 

Experience - beginner. Scope - Evostar 80ED. Mount - EQ6R Pro. Acquisition - Laptop (APT, NINA, not decided). 

The 294 has amp glow. The 533 has zero amp glow. As I understand it, amp glow will start to degrade the image the longer the subs that are taken? I doubt I'd be pushing past 3 minute subs really, so will it be an issue? Reading a lot between these two, a recurring topic comes up about the 294, that is, proper calibration must be carried out. Well... Yes? Don't all cameras need calibration frames for the stacking stage to produce a decent image? Darks flats and bias? If so, apart from longer exposures, where does amp glow become an issue for the 294? Is the 294 a bit much of a handful for a beginner? 

I ask because in my heart of hearts I'm not all too keen on a square sensor. The 4/3 format feels more natural to me. Framing objects using Stellarium to simulate the FOV of each camera pushes me more towards the 294. Both are a decent match for the scope, but I believe it's going to come down to user friendliness, and that will be of some significance as a beginner. If I bought the 294, took my lights, darks, flats and dark flats... Why am I going to struggle with calibration? Why is the 533 going to produce a cleaner image? Why this that and the other is either going to be better for me as a beginner? What other options may fit - Altair? QHY? 

In a way this is a stream of thought, some naive nonsense and a lot of questions so I appreciate any help 🙂

[Adam J]

2 minutes ago, OK Apricot said:

Evening all, 

It's getting closer to that time where I pull the trigger on my first astro camera. The closer it gets, the more reading I do. A short while back I'd narrowed down my options to the ASI533MC Pro and the ASI294MC Pro. My chosen method has changed slightly in that I won't be going for the ASI Air, rather using my laptop, so I'm not limited to ZWO cameras and hav, presumably, more options. 

Experience - beginner. Scope - Evostar 80ED. Mount - EQ6R Pro. Acquisition - Laptop (APT, NINA, not decided). 

The 294 has amp glow. The 533 has zero amp glow. As I understand it, amp glow will start to degrade the image the longer the subs that are taken? I doubt I'd be pushing past 3 minute subs really, so will it be an issue? Reading a lot between these two, a recurring topic comes up about the 294, that is, proper calibration must be carried out. Well... Yes? Don't all cameras need calibration frames for the stacking stage to produce a decent image? Darks flats and bias? If so, apart from longer exposures, where does amp glow become an issue for the 294? Is the 294 a bit much of a handful for a beginner? 

I ask because in my heart of hearts I'm not all too keen on a square sensor. The 4/3 format feels more natural to me. Framing objects using Stellarium to simulate the FOV of each camera pushes me more towards the 294. Both are a decent match for the scope, but I believe it's going to come down to user friendliness, and that will be of some significance as a beginner. If I bought the 294, took my lights, darks, flats and dark flats... Why am I going to struggle with calibration? Why is the 533 going to produce a cleaner image? Why this that and the other is either going to be better for me as a beginner? What other options may fit - Altair? QHY? 

In a way this is a stream of thought, some naive nonsense and a lot of questions so I appreciate any help 🙂

The 533 is a better sensor the 294 can be a royal pain to calibrate, but for OSC i would buy neither these days, I would get the risingcam IMX571 OSC. Its the best bang for the buck camera on the market today bar none.

Adam

 

[ONIKKINEN]

I can definitely recommend the Rising cam ATR3CMOS26000KPA (lmao, thats the name) also better known as just the IMX571 OSC.

But the price is not such a clear cut winner anymore and actually the Omegon version might be cheaper. Also Altair, TS, Omegon, Lacerta, Rising Cam, Explore scientific and others all sell the same camera with maybe slight changes in what comes in the box and exterior design but in the end all of them are made by ToupTek and from a specs point of view would be difficult to distinguish from eachother.

[Steve Ward]

Long running thread here on Cloudy Nights regarding this camera for you to wade through at your leisure ... 

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/739387-risingcam-imx571-camera/

[OK Apricot]

1 hour ago, Adam J said:

The 533 is a better sensor the 294 can be a royal pain to calibrate, but for OSC i would buy neither these days, I would get the risingcam IMX571 OSC. Its the best bang for the buck camera on the market today bar none.

Adam

 

This is what I mean - what makes it difficult? Why is the 533 'easier'? 

Thanks for showing me the RisingCam - diving into that thread now. 

[Adam J]

19 minutes ago, OK Apricot said:

This is what I mean - what makes it difficult? Why is the 533 'easier'? 

Thanks for showing me the RisingCam - diving into that thread now. 

Its difficult because there are certain caractoristics of the sensor that make calibration less than straight forward, there is also a factor of sample to sample veriation in the quality of some of the sensor coatings that result in a fixed red / green pattern that is reveiled by use of duel band filters and can be a serious pain to remove using calibration frames.

Essentially in most cases it will calibrate but you have to do everything perfectly and methodically to ensure this and you need to avoid certain gain settings too due to none linear responce at lower gains. It is simply the case that the IMX5XX series sensors are more forgiving than others and better all round using the latest technology.

I have a friend who is a very experianced imager and he managed to derive a process to ensure sucesssful calibration but I think even he would admit that it was a royal pain to get it working well for him. So while the results may be worth the pain to an esperianced user I would not recommend it to someone taking a first step into dedicated cameras as it has the potential to sour the experiance for you.

I could find many many more threads consisting of people ripping their own hair out trying to get their IMX294c sensors to calibrate correctly but below are some highlights for you to examin. So once again my advice is, while sure you could get it to work, why do it to yourself if you dont have to?

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/811140-flats-and-calibration-problems-with-asi294-mc-pro/

https://www.astropixelprocessor.com/community/main-forum/asi294mc-l-extreme-gradients/

Adam

Edited July 27, 2022 by Adam J

[Elp]

It's to do with the flats acquisition I believe, if not done right it creates a wash of red/green/white over a calibrated image. Its not a show stopper as many use it fine but I guess it's very much a learning process.

As for amp glow, I own a 183mm pro which amp glows for the fun of it, I wouldn't worry about it at all as it calibrates out.

[Daf1983]

I have a zwo 533 with the 80ed. I was slightly concerned with the square sensor originally, but can honestly say I've never thought about about it since. Calibration wise, it's so easy, but I only have the my 600d to compare

[newbie alert]

The 294mc suffers from a weird colour gradient, loads have experienced it, some have got around it in someway or another.. it also suffers with what people regard as amplifier glow, but the noise created doesn't come from the sensor amplifiers, more so the circuits.. both the 533 and the 571 sensors don't suffer from this circuit glow.. you say all cameras need calibration frames.. in a word no they don't, you only need to calibrate out what been put there by the camera.. and with CMOS sensors you don't need both bias and darks.. trying to calibrate out something that isn't there will add noise and not take it away.. you don't need flats if you have a clean image train and no vignette..

Given the choice I'd not go for the 294, and if money isn't the issue I'd go for the 571 as its far superior to any of those listed.. I'm sure you will enjoy the 533 if the budget can't reach the 571..

[OK Apricot]

Thanks for the advice and good reading. I've so much to learn! The 533 will probably be the one - it's a shame there isn't a sensor like this in the 4/3 format... Or is there? 

[Adam J]

3 hours ago, OK Apricot said:

Thanks for the advice and good reading. I've so much to learn! The 533 will probably be the one - it's a shame there isn't a sensor like this in the 4/3 format... Or is there? 

A new sensor has been released by Sony:

https://www.sony-semicon.com/files/62/pdf/p-13_IMX472-AAJK_Flyer.pdf

Its very new and not clear if astro camera makers will pick it up, for that matter it will never enter full production unless someone makes a purchase for use in the compact camera market as they wont start up production just for ZWOs kind purchase size. It is essentially a back illuminated stacked sensor replacement for the IMX269 as used in some Altair and risingcam asto cameras. Its a very promising sensor designed for use in the 4/3 format compact camera market. But nothing announced in terms of astronomy cameras and even if they did you would expect 6 months from announcement to seeing availability. 

I doubt you want to wait that long for something that may not happen. 

Adam  

Edited July 28, 2022 by Adam J

[SoftwareDeveloper]

Greetings OK Apricot,

My suggestion is pick a cooled camera you can afford, know that monochrome is about 4x more sensitive for the same sensor than color.

Dont fret the details too much, find something you can afford and take the plunge. A camera and a telescope completely change the experience of astronomy. Expect to be amazed at what you can image. The most humble modern camera with a very humble telescope will usually outperform the imaging that was only possible with state of the art observatories 75 years ago.

Amp glow in a modern camera would disqualify it from consideration - IMHO. The manufacturers have usually provided solutions for this problem years ago and its almost a complete non-issue. That should not add to the price.

Expect a camera to be able to do long exposures of many minutes, even tho as a beginner that feature will require growing into. A good frame rate is handy for focusing. The same camera should be able to take very short exposures, a millisecond or less. Most cameras go down to a microsecond or so of exposure time, those short exposure times are good for pointing the telescope at some distant scene (Not the sun!) and focus and experiment in the daytime with your new camera. Figure how it all goes together while its easy to see.

Also, there are many camera vendors who get their sensors from the same few companies. So, the important things are cooling, and sensor dimensions. Megapixel count is nice but usually these cameras get operated in a "bin mode" that reduces their resolution to make the image sizes manageable. So no point in spending money on a sensor with zillions of pixels.

No matter what camera you pick, later you will have a much more intuitive understanding of what other cameras might do for you. Save some money for a second camera, and the first camera doesn't go to waste, it can be used for guiding with a very small piggyback telescope.

Remember to hold come cash back for adapters. Almost no camera connects to a telescope without adapters. Put that in the budget.

Lastly-

Expect to be amazed!

[OK Apricot]

Thank you all for your input - much appreciated 👍. Best I stick with the 533, not long now! 

[Stu Wilson]

I've got a qhy8l for sale if your interested in tec cooled ccd?

 

Stu

[Phillyo]

On 29/07/2022 at 19:37, OK Apricot said:

Thank you all for your input - much appreciated 👍. Best I stick with the 533, not long now! 

I'm likely selling my 533MC Pro within the new couple of weeks if you've not bought one yet. Plus an ASIAIR Pro.

Fantastic little camera and I've had some incredible images from it (in my opinion of course ) 

Phil

[AstroMuni]

On 29/07/2022 at 19:37, OK Apricot said:

Thank you all for your input - much appreciated 👍. Best I stick with the 533, not long now! 

Having recently purchased the 533 I love it 🙂