It's Life, Jim - But not as we know it!

[Macavity]

Those impressed by (terrestrial) "life finding a way" might enjoy: 😎
https://www.quantamagazine.org/inside-deep-undersea-rocks-life-thrives-without-the-sun-20200513/

Also those who hope for "E.T." in the solar system...and beyond... 🤫
 

Edited June 15, 2022 by Macavity

[maw lod qan]

Amazing. That is an interesting article. 

I remember reading how microbes were found growing in oil. My question is, is that a completely "water" free environment, or is there microscopic amounts of H2O in the mix?

If it is nothing but crude oil, it just makes me keep thinking we must get away from water being a key factor for "all" life and think more in the line of "liquid" being needed.

 

[Macavity]

5 hours ago, maw lod qan said:

My question is, is that a completely "water" free environment, or is there microscopic amounts of H2O in the mix?

Interesting thought! It is not completely clear in the claims?

Off topic: Having (like many?) spent a couple of years trying
to kill/avoid VIRAL life (Never a "Hand sanitatiser guy"!) I used
standard 75% "Pharma" alcohol (Ethanol). Hey - Don't 🍻 it!

Evidently it is water content that makes it More Lethal than the 100%?
P.S. Don't drink "100%" (dilute) because it likely contains benzene! 🙀

Edited June 15, 2022 by Macavity

[Alien 13]

Have often wondered too regarding the minimum amount of water required to sustain life and also if single molecules of water can actually freeze...

Alan

[saac]

Don't tardigrades expel almost all the water in their tiny bodies when they go into suspended animation?  Maybe it is even all of eth water. They then then animate when water becomes available. Fungal spores too can survive prolonged periods of time in a dried state to come alive when re hydrated. I'd imagine that for any chemistry to take place though ie life, there must surely be some water present!

Jim 

[wulfrun]

19 hours ago, Alien 13 said:

...and also if single molecules of water can actually freeze...

A single molecule can't be said to be solid/liquid, surely? It can only have a temperature. Technically, if it's an isolated molecule, you'd have to say it's gaseous. Not claiming I'm correct but that's my logic anyway.

Edited June 18, 2022 by wulfrun

[Ratlet]

7 minutes ago, wulfrun said:

A single molecule can't be said to be solid/liquid, surely? It can only have a temperature. Technically, if it's an isolated molecule, you'd have to say it's gaseous. Not claiming I'm correct but that's my logic anyway.

I think when you get down to single molecules of things like water you are basically into thought experiment territory.  I think they did manage to isolate a single molecule by trapping it in a buckminsterfullerene a while back.

[Alien 13]

16 hours ago, wulfrun said:

A single molecule can't be said to be solid/liquid, surely? It can only have a temperature. Technically, if it's an isolated molecule, you'd have to say it's gaseous. Not claiming I'm correct but that's my logic anyway.

 

16 hours ago, Ratlet said:

I think when you get down to single molecules of things like water you are basically into thought experiment territory.  I think they did manage to isolate a single molecule by trapping it in a buckminsterfullerene a while back.

Thanks both, of course this begs the question of how many molecules do you need for H2O to become water as we know it? and the minimum number of molecules needed before it can freeze..

Alan

[iantaylor2uk]

Hydrogen bonding is key to the behaviour of water and I think each water molecule has hydrogen bonds to about 4 or 5 other water molecules. 

[maw lod qan]

What I always think is the statement, "life as we know it".

Though I do have a few friends who think they know everything, I'm pretty certain most of us know we are still learning.

I have no proof, or even theory to support my thoughts, but why couldn't there be some life that developed in an entirely different manner that exists on other chemicals or combinations of chemicals that hydrogen, oxygen and carbon?

It goes back to simply, there might be..

[johninderby]

[saac]

10 minutes ago, maw lod qan said:

What I always think is the statement, "life as we know it".

Though I do have a few friends who think they know everything, I'm pretty certain most of us know we are still learning.

I have no proof, or even theory to support my thoughts, but why couldn't there be some life that developed in an entirely different manner that exists on other chemicals or combinations of chemicals that hydrogen, oxygen and carbon?

It goes back to simply, there might be..

I get what you are saying lod qan and I think those who are in the astrobiology research fields are open to the possibility of non carbon life. In general, science takes a view of the "balance of probability" against what we observe hence carbon based life using oxygen for respiration dominates the thinking and hence the elements we look for.   Carbon has such a great ability to form bonds with other element I guess it makes for the perfect go to element for Nature. 

Jim 

[Macavity]

Ah, Chemistry of Carbon homologues? - Ever interesting! In old terms, Carbon atoms have a "valency" Four.
But you can form similar "organic" molecules (to those of life), with e.g. (tetravalent) Silicon. Or alternating
atoms of valence THREE and FIVE - Covalently bonded Chains & Rings of alternating Boron and Nitrogen.
"Cyclic" Borone-Nitrile(?) are physically almost the same (liquid boiling point etc.) as Benzene - C6H6 etc. 😎

The problem is, chemical stability, is mostly less. Carbon has only P-type orbitals to bond. As you "go down"
the periodic table, atoms have extra (even the empty!) d-Orbitals, d-Orbitals etc. Other molecules can gain
"purchase" on such atoms and bond-with or break up the molecule. Sadly "Arsenic based life" wasn't real. 😐
https://phys.org/news/2012-07-scientists-nasa-arsenic-life-untrue.html

P.S. Don't mind me! Back in the day, there was a lot of enthusiasm for non-Carbon based lifeforms!
I seem to remember, having "Phaser-ed" it, they "healed it" with a dab of Body Filler... Polyfilla? 🤣

[saac]

I guess that nature being nature would explore all possibilities and chose what works from what is available. 

Jim 

[Alien 13]

Evolution is a funny thing - carbon based life creates man - man creates silicon based life - silicon based life rules the universe.

I am also not sure we know what life is and how to identify it and if intelligence is real or just another set of complex instructions being processed.

Alan               

[Astro_Dad]

Well worth a read - brings together many of the themes and questions posed in this thread. Also has brief discussion of how geothermal radiation (mostly infra red) can extend into the visible light part of the spectrum in just sufficient quantity to sustain very low rates of photosynthesis in  vent organisms. Fascinating stuff. 

[Astro_Dad]

On 18/06/2022 at 14:30, Ratlet said:

  I think they did manage to isolate a single molecule by trapping it in a buckminsterfullerene a while back.

2011! Time flies. 
https://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/buckyball-traps-single-water-molecu-11-08-04/

[Ratlet]

5 hours ago, Astro_Dad said:

2011! Time flies. 
https://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/buckyball-traps-single-water-molecu-11-08-04/

Science is ace.

[Macavity]

Mystery of half-billion year old creature with no anus solved!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-62580967
All mouth and NO trousers (needed)? 🥳
 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Macavity

[Astro_Dad]

Excellent nice post @Macavity!

[Gfamily]

On 15/06/2022 at 12:28, maw lod qan said:

Amazing. That is an interesting article. 

I remember reading how microbes were found growing in oil. My question is, is that a completely "water" free environment, or is there microscopic amounts of H2O in the mix?

If it is nothing but crude oil, it just makes me keep thinking we must get away from water being a key factor for "all" life and think more in the line of "liquid" being needed.

 

It seems that most crude oil comes from rocks that also contain significant amounts of water - in the industry, this is known as 'produced water' - so it seems very likely that the microbes may well live in a relatively wet environment. 

I was trying to find a ratio of produced water to oil; I've seen various figures, starting at 3:1 and up to and beyond 25:1, but I'm not sure whether this might also include some of the water used in the extraction process. 

https://www.americangeosciences.org/critical-issues/faq/what-produced-water

PS - I didn't know any of this until I found this thread, so I'm not an expert. 

[Astro_Dad]

It’s an interesting field. During my biology PhD I came across putative gene candidates that related to “petroleum degrading enzymes” suggestive of bacteria that could thrive off pure crude oil or similar - potential application including cleaning up of oil spillages in marine ecosystems.
 https://www.mpg.de/257961/oil-degrading-bacteria

The science and understanding has moved on of course,  but the concept remains fascinating…

[Gfamily]

26 minutes ago, Astro_Dad said:

It’s an interesting field. During my biology PhD I came across putative gene candidates that related to “petroleum degrading enzymes” suggestive of bacteria that could thrive off pure crude oil or similar - potential application including cleaning up of oil spillages in marine ecosystems.
 https://www.mpg.de/257961/oil-degrading-bacteria

The science and understanding has moved on of course,  but the concept remains fascinating…

The article talks about H2S production in the 'tank that was used to separate the oil/water mix from the drill holes', and the experimenter 'brought water with oil residue from the tanks to the laboratory and placed it in air-tight containers'

So, water was always present - and I assume it likely to be necessary. As has been noted, the polar nature of the water molecule seems to be (seems to be) necessary to all the identified life processes as performed (at the current time) on this planet. 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Gfamily

[Astro_Dad]

9 hours ago, Gfamily said:

So, water was always present - and I assume

You’re right - crude oil or other is a possible substrate but even then water it seems must be present at all times- albeit in tiny quantities. The need for water however small is very likely to be a constant for all known life on Earth…as far as we know…

My post above should have omitted the word “pure” since that was maybe suggestive of not requiring ANY water - not the case. 

Edited August 19, 2022 by Astro_Dad