Done with being cheap. Pix advice

[teoria_del_big_bang]

4 hours ago, vlaiv said:

Do you know based on what weights are decided?

Now be gentle on me my technical knowledge is not up to your standard @vlaiv 🤣

But now in PI there are several methods you can choose via a drop down menu.

The default is PSF signal weight.
All data for this is determined in the calibration stage and then stored in the fits header..

Now my understanding of NSG script which so far I considered worked slightly better, but that was only from one short test, is it detects stars and used the relative brightness from image to image .
Weighting the images is only a small part of the script as its main function is to make the background gradients equal on all images using a reference image. And, it seems to work very well at doing that, it does not fix then but equalises them so that if you pick a good reference image then it makes DBE a lot easier.
So it could well be that it is the normalisation that seemed to improved my final linear image rather than the weighting, at moment I couldn't say for sure.

 

Attached is the documentation for NSG script which will explain better.   PixInsight Reference Documentation _ NormalizeScaleGradient.pdf

Steve

 

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by teoria_del_big_bang

[vlaiv]

12 minutes ago, teoria_del_big_bang said:

Weighting the images is only a small part of the script as its main function is to make the background gradients equal on all images using a reference image.

Then I have to correct myself - I wrote that it's not being done by available software - but it seems that it is in the case of that script.

It has different approach then what I implemented for myself - but it is valid approach for equalizing gradients.

[dan_adi]

On 14/05/2022 at 09:59, ollypenrice said:

...to whom do the authors of this menu think they are talking? If they are well entrenched on the Asperger's continuum they won't care...

However, terms like opacity, feather, erase, select, minimize, maximize, etc etc, though used metaphorically to describe mathematical manipulations, make intuitive sense to me and create an analogue processing experience.

Olly

I thought I was the only one finding PI made for mathematicians :)).

I even complained on their forum about making the software more user friendly, but the moderators didn't take it very well

My opinion is that software needs to be user friendly and automated as much as possible. If you have to take paid courses like those by Adam Block in order to use it, the design is simply bad, like in the old days in Linux when you had to use a terminal and learn commands to copy a file from one place to another.... 

Edited May 24, 2022 by dan_adi

[ollypenrice]

53 minutes ago, dan_adi said:

I thought I was the only one finding PI made for mathematicians :)).

I even complained on their forum about making the software more user friendly, but the moderators didn't take it very well

My opinion is that software needs to be user friendly and automated as much as possible. If you have to take paid courses like those by Adam Block in order to use it, the design is simply bad, like in the old days in Linux when you had to use a terminal and learn commands to copy a file from one place to another.... 

I agree, and the fact that they don't listen to their users confirms the charge. Behind a communication problem lies an attitude problem. I spent the first half of my working life as a teacher, a job in which much more effort goes into finding ways of communicating ideas than goes into mastering the ideas themselves.

I met two imagers who signed up for a two-day PI course run by the developers. They lasted 10 minutes and walked out. These guys were not fools, both having established and managed very successful businesses.

Olly

[dan_adi]

True, I think they didn't think about the targeted audience. They should have made a profesional version for big observatories and have a trained profesional in PI hired for such a job, and a user friendly version for a simple workflow, intended for the amateur market. They did try and I ve appreciated the WBPP, now they could take it one step further for the rest of the work flow. 

Overall when the learning curve is too steep, most will have a hard time.

[teoria_del_big_bang]

Always two sides to an argument. Well almost always, I can't argue that black is white. 

I cannot comment on the PI developers attitude as never had any dealings with them, and I totally agree if the case is as said then they should listen to their customers, or potential customers, like any other business.

But from the software side of things I tried to get into PS for a year and just could not get to grips with it, couldn't do a thing with it without following a tutorial religiously, watching the tutorial on one monitor whilst pausing then doing the processing on another. I just really struggled.

I put off trying PI because so many people of SGL said it had a steep learning curve and that it was just so difficult to use. But then when I tried PI it just made sense to me and once I understood the ethos behind it I just took to it and like I said it made real sense.

Why one and not the other, not sure, maybe the more Arty amongst us, or those already familiar with photography find PS so straight forward and whether it is that those with a more mathematical or logical approach take to PI  and prefer that path I am not sure.
I know that I tried photography in my younger days, all the gear (before digital SLR) even all the darkroom stuff so was keen, but I was pretty useless at it, I could take the images and develop them no problem , but they were poor to look at, just didn't get what made a good photograph. Also I was never good at drawing or art, struggle to even write legibly. But, maths and logic I was much more at home with.

 I think it is just a matter of horses for courses.

But, without going on about it it does worry me about your comments, and Olly's, about the developers attitude, and although I said I could not comment on that I just thought about  a recent issue regarding what I thought was a great third party script, called NSG, which when I did the latest major update of PI I found the script and all my settings had disappeared and no idea why, until I read on the PI forum that the developers had a disagreement with how the script handled weighting of images and decided there way was right and the script was wrong so just removed it from the repository of anyone who did the update.
That did really annoy me to say the least.
The script is still available but PI made it really harder to install and use it as the script could no longer then call an instance of a PI process. Luckily the script developer did find a way around the problem and thankfully I can still use the script but took me several hours to find out what had happened and how to reinstate it and get it working again.

So sounds like the attitude issue is true. Shame because (for me and I think so many others) the software works for us.

Steve

 

Edited May 24, 2022 by teoria_del_big_bang

[Anthonyexmouth]

21 minutes ago, teoria_del_big_bang said:

Always two sides to an argument. Well almost always, I can't argue that black is white. 

I cannot comment on the PI developers attitude as never had any dealings with them, and I totally agree if the case is as said then they should listen to their customers, or potential customers, like any other business.

But from the software side of things I tried to get into PS for a year and just could not get to grips with it, couldn't do a thing with it without following a tutorial religiously, watching the tutorial on one monitor whilst pausing then doing the processing on another. I just really struggled.

I put off trying PI because so many people of SGL said it had a steep learning curve and that it was just so difficult to use. But then when I tried PI it just made sense to me and once I understood the ethos behind it I just took to it and like I said it made real sense.

Why one and not the other, not sure, maybe the more Arty amongst us, or those already familiar with photography find PS so straight forward and whether it is that those with a more mathematical or logical approach take to PI  and prefer that path I am not sure.
I know that I tried photography in my younger days, all the gear (before digital SLR) even all the darkroom stuff so was keen, but I was pretty useless at it, I could take the images and develop them no problem , but they were poor to look at, just didn't get what made a good photograph. Also I was never good at drawing or art, struggle to even write legibly. But, maths and logic I was much more at home with.

 I think it is just a matter of horses for courses.

But, without going on about it it does worry me about your comments, and Olly's, about the developers attitude, and although I said I could not comment on that I just thought about  a recent issue regarding what I thought was a great third party script, called NSG, which when I did the latest major update of PI I found the script and all my settings had disappeared and no idea why, until I read on the PI forum that the developers had a disagreement with how the script handled weighting of images and decided there way was right and the script was wrong so just removed it from the repository of anyone who did the update.
That did really annoy me to say the least.
The script is still available but PI made it really harder to install and use it as the script could no longer then call an instance of a PI process. Luckily the script developer did find a way around the problem and thankfully I can still use the script but took me several hours to find out what had happened and how to reinstate it and get it working again.

So sounds like the attitude issue is true. Shame because (for me and I think so many others) the software works for us.

Steve

 

I gotta say, between Adam Blocks free videos and Mitch's videos PI has certainly started to become much easier to understand. Much more so than GIMP or APP, I wish I'd bought PI before spending money on APP. 

[ollypenrice]

28 minutes ago, teoria_del_big_bang said:

Always two sides to an argument. Well almost always, I can't argue that black is white. 

Oh but you can! It's quite easy: consider black as being the darkest possible form of grey, while white is its lightest form. Both being grey they are, therefore, the same colour...

🤣lly

[teoria_del_big_bang]

5 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

Oh but you can! It's quite easy: consider black as being the darkest possible form of grey, while white is its lightest form. Both being grey they are, therefore, the same colour...

🤣lly

Let's save that for another thread eh 😂

Steve

[sloz1664]

2 hours ago, dan_adi said:

I thought I was the only one finding PI made for mathematicians :)).

I even complained on their forum about making the software more user friendly, but the moderators didn't take it very well

My opinion is that software needs to be user friendly and automated as much as possible. If you have to take paid courses like those by Adam Block in order to use it, the design is simply bad, like in the old days in Linux when you had to use a terminal and learn commands to copy a file from one place to another.... 

I can understand the frustration on the steep learning curves of either PS or Pixinsight. It's not just learning on how to use the software, to a degree where you start feeling comfortable with it, you have to keep using it on a regular basis or keep a precise journal of the techniques used in your processes, Because, if you do not, you will forget what you have done. In my past working life I used many 3D computer aided design software programmes, some with complex rendering software and vastly more complex than either PS or Pix. I was paid for getting results so you had to learn very quickly that you learn from your mistakes. Even a two week holiday set me back a few days to get back to the level I had before my holiday. I soon realised that keeping a journal of the processes, commands and steps needed to attain the desired results.

Regards to automating processes have you looked at the EZ processing suite by Dark Archon. It automates quite a few of your processes to make using Pixinsight a lot easier. There a quite a few tutorials on YouTube on how to install and use the software and it's free.

Steve

[teoria_del_big_bang]

6 minutes ago, sloz1664 said:

I can understand the frustration on the steep learning curves of either PS or Pixinsight. It's not just learning on how to use the software, to a degree where you start feeling comfortable with it, you have to keep using it on a regular basis or keep a precise journal of the techniques used in your processes, Because, if you do not, you will forget what you have done.

I do not know if this is just my experience or applies to others on SGL but I think because of Family life, work and lots of other stuff although always interested in Astro related stuff I just never got into it till I had more time (and a bit of spare cash helped 🙂 )  and I think , for me anyway, being well over 50 did not help with any of it, either learning the imaging side of things or the processing. 
I am sure I am not alone but stuff just does not go in there and get retained like it used to.

Steve

[vlaiv]

5 hours ago, ollypenrice said:

Oh but you can! It's quite easy: consider black as being the darkest possible form of grey, while white is its lightest form. Both being grey they are, therefore, the same colour...

🤣lly

That is one brilliant argument. Requesting permission to reuse it for those "one too many beers" social events?

[StarryEyed]

9 hours ago, ollypenrice said:

I agree, and the fact that they don't listen to their users confirms the charge. Behind a communication problem lies an attitude problem. I spent the first half of my working life as a teacher, a job in which much more effort goes into finding ways of communicating ideas than goes into mastering the ideas themselves.

I met two imagers who signed up for a two-day PI course run by the developers. They lasted 10 minutes and walked out. These guys were not fools, both having established and managed very successful businesses.

Olly

This is a common problem getting developers to write manuals when they just dont understand that when you build the tower and shout instructions from the top on how to climb it you do so from a perspective and knowledge that the the person at the bottom does not share.

[ollypenrice]

3 hours ago, vlaiv said:

That is one brilliant argument. Requesting permission to reuse it for those "one too many beers" social events?

Please feel free. I used it as a teacher when encouraging argument as an activity. All I had to do was say, 'I can make an argument for anything. Go ahead, try me.'  One of the kids would always say, 'Argue that black is white,' and away I went! 🤣

Olly

[Ouroboros]

On 24/05/2022 at 17:46, StarryEyed said:

This is a common problem getting developers to write manuals when they just dont understand that when you build the tower and shout instructions from the top on how to climb it you do so from a perspective and knowledge that the the person at the bottom does not share.

That’s a good analogy. 

[billhinge]

Best book on PI is http://www.deepskycolors.com/mastering-pixinsight.html , hardcopy sold out but you can buy the pdf

I think PI is great being an IT person 😉, I love their lack of compromise (road to hell etc ...). Its just a collection of tools and there is always more than one combination of tools that will do the job, some ways are better than others but the above books explain the pro's and cons and explain how to move beyond default settings.

Fein are the same with powertools, we don't put anti-vibration technologies on our drills because we design them so that they don't vibrate. They aren't built to a price point either...