I know nothing about astrophotography camera

[RobST]

So I'm thinking of getting a proper astro dedicated camera,  but as the title says I know nothing about them.

I recently had my new StellaMira 90ed Triplet out with my trusty Canon6d.

I'm was pretty happy with the results as it was the first time I had used the new scope with the 6d.

But always looking for that little bit more, I've been looking at astro cameras but the only thing I can base my choice on is field of view and budget.

 I like imaging Andromeda as it was the first thing I ever imaged with a Canon 400d and a kit lens and I keep going back as it's a nice way to see my progression. 

Looking at the field of view calculator I would need a pretty expensive camera to be able to fit andromeda in with my scope.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/zwo-cameras/zwo-asi071mc-pro-usb-30-cooled-colour-camera.html#about_this_product

Something like this as a minimum.

Am Iooking in the right direction? Can anyone advise me on what I should be looking for?

Cheers Rob

[vlaiv]

Since you are used to full frame sensor - it will be very difficult to get dedicated astro camera to replace that.

You probably want to choose between full frame sensor astro camera, and APS-C sized astro camera.

Depending on your budget, well - there are two predominant versions (I'll link versions from one vendor - but there are others out there that produce cameras based on these chips).

Full frame version:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/zwo-cameras/zwo-asi-6200mc-pro-full-frame-usb-30-cooled-colour-camera.html

APS-C:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/zwo-cameras/zwo-asi-2600mc-pro-usb-30-cooled-colour-camera.html

Those are currently the best sensors based on various parameters like quantum efficiency, read noise, cleanness of dark frames and so on ...

ASI071 is not bad camera compared to DSLR - you will certainly feel effects of cooling and proper calibration, but compared to ASI2600 above - it is much less sensitive.

It has QE of 50% while ASI2600 has peak QE of 80% so that is quite an improvement.

Other parameters are about the same and ASI071 has larger pixels (which I personally see as a bonus).

If ASI071 had larger QE - it would be excellent value.

[scotty38]

What about the 2600 as mentioned together with the dedicated 0.8x reducer?

[nfotis]

Hello there,

it's an unfortunate situation that the large sensors cost way too much (add to the cost the larger filters etc).

With the SM90, Andromeda fits well (barely) into an APS-C sensor, if you position the diagonal correctly.

The Sony IMX571 sensor is the current champion on this size. You can find multiple versions, from the RisingCam IMX571 to the ZWO/QHY and Moravian versions, ranging from 1500 to 2500 USD for the colour version, and from 2100 USD to 3000 USD or so for the mono version. There are two versions of this sensor, the consumer grade is suggested to operate less than 300 hours per year, while the industrial version has no such limitation AFAIK.

A lower price approach would be to use a 4/3rds sensor like the IMX294, together with a 0.8 reducer. This sensor suffers a bit from amp glow, which needs some extra effort to remove from the final result. If you don't mind the square format, the IMX533 is another option as well (on the par technologically as the IMX571 sensor).

A full frame sensor is too pricey (add 2" filters, and it becomes quite painful, especially for narrowband filters), and generates HUGE image files which will tax most personal computers trying to process them.

So, the size and price segments are like this:

Full frame (IMX455)

APS-C (IMX571)

4/3rds (IMX294, IMX492 if going for mono version)

square format (IMX533)

 

N.F.

 

[RobST]

Thanks for the info everyone, not sure I understand it all 🤣 I have the 0.8 reducer for the stellamira 90ed already.

[nfotis]

1 hour ago, RobST said:

Thanks for the info everyone, not sure I understand it all 🤣 I have the 0.8 reducer for the stellamira 90ed already.

Since you have already the reducer, you can use a smaller sensor than full frame (if I understand correctly, these correctors cover up to APS-C size image circle, so no 6D with the 0.8x)

Please, check with the field of view calculator in "Imaging mode" below with these cameras combined with the StellaMira 90:

- Canon 6D (no reducer)

- ASI2600 (IMX571), using 0.8x reducer

- ASI294 (IMX294/IMX492), using 0.8x reducer

- ASI533 (IMX533), using 0.8x reducer

on various targets, not only M31/Andromeda.

https://astronomy.tools/calculators/field_of_view/?fov[]=17298||3106||0.8|1|0&fov[]=17298||1134||0.8|1|0&fov[]=17298||3258||0.8|1|0&fov[]=17298||90||1|1|0&messier=31

(added the cases I mentioned already, so you can do a direct comparison)

N.F.

 

[RobST]

Fantastic, thanks so much.

[RobST]

Think it's time to start saving for the 2600 😀 until then I shall carry on plugging away with my 6d, thanks for all the help everyone.

[newbie alert]

Depends what  you're looking for, the performance of the 6d with added cooling? 

The 6200 is a 4k camera, the 2600 is about 2k, but you can get cheaper cameras from different brands, rising cam do various versions using the imx 571 sensor, Altair have the 26, qhy have the 268 and obviously the zwo..

The thing to consider is the imaging circle of the stellarmira, the spec shows up to APS-C sized sensors, the 6200 is a larger full frame, you may have noticed the vignette on using the 6d?

[RobST]

8 hours ago, newbie alert said:

Depends what  you're looking for, the performance of the 6d with added cooling? 

The 6200 is a 4k camera, the 2600 is about 2k, but you can get cheaper cameras from different brands, rising cam do various versions using the imx 571 sensor, Altair have the 26, qhy have the 268 and obviously the zwo..

The thing to consider is the imaging circle of the stellarmira, the spec shows up to APS-C sized sensors, the 6200 is a larger full frame, you may have noticed the vignette on using the 6d?

Yes I did notice this, I did have to crop quite hard.

[nfotis]

2 hours ago, RobST said:

Yes I did notice this, I did have to crop quite hard.

Since you were going to crop severely anyway, why not go for an APS-C or 4/3 sensor?

A full frame camera sensor is a waste in the huge majority of most telescopes (especially if you add a reducer).

(by the way, I have read about problems with leaking silicone in front of the IMX571 in the ASI2600MC colour camera, so you may want to check beforehand if ZWO has fixed the problem if you want their implementation)

N.F.

 

[RobST]

8 hours ago, nfotis said:

Since you were going to crop severely anyway, why not go for an APS-C or 4/3 sensor?

A full frame camera sensor is a waste in the huge majority of most telescopes (especially if you add a reducer).

(by the way, I have read about problems with leaking silicone in front of the IMX571 in the ASI2600MC colour camera, so you may want to check beforehand if ZWO has fixed the problem if you want their implementation)

N.F.

 

I will probably go with an APS-C sensor this time, I got my 6d because it was a great camera to start off with, cheap second hand and paired with the Samsung 135mm it really got me excited about astrophotography, would I get another? Yes probably but maybe An maybe an astro modified one.

I think the 2600MC fits the bill for the future, and I will check out the problem you mentioned thanks.

Rob

[newbie alert]

11 hours ago, nfotis said:

Since you were going to crop severely anyway, why not go for an APS-C or 4/3 sensor?

A full frame camera sensor is a waste in the huge majority of most telescopes (especially if you add a reducer).

(by the way, I have read about problems with leaking silicone in front of the IMX571 in the ASI2600MC colour camera, so you may want to check beforehand if ZWO has fixed the problem if you want their implementation)

N.F.

 

They have now at least acknowledged the problem, and have implemented a procedure to stop it happening, anyone with the issue can now get it sorted without the customer having to clean it themselves... Which I found terrible customer service and could never work out how the customer should open up their brand new 2k camera and clean grease off a leaking component... 

[RobST]

3 hours ago, newbie alert said:

They have now at least acknowledged the problem, and have implemented a procedure to stop it happening, anyone with the issue can now get it sorted without the customer having to clean it themselves... Which I found terrible customer service and could never work out how the customer should open up their brand new 2k camera and clean grease off a leaking component... 

Yeah it doesn't fill  you with confidence does it 🤣

[Padraic M]

You might need to question your opening assumptions. Andromeda is an unusual DSO given its large size. Most DSOs are much smaller, so going for a set-up that optimises for Andromeda will leave you too wide field for almost all other galaxies. Planetary nebulae will be tiny. Only the larger nebulae, supernova remnants and wide-field space shots will be suitable. For that, most people go with a shorter focal length scope or even the Samyang. No real need to go for an expensive full-frame sensor.

Take a look in the field of view calculator for other popular DSOs like M51, M27, M3, M57, Bode (M81&M82), Leo Triplet M65&M66, Bubble Nebula etc. They should all fit comfortably, if a little small, into your 90mm scope with the ASI533, whereas with a full-frame they will be lost. For larger DSOs like M31, M42, M45 etc., you can always do mosaics.

 

[RobST]

Yes I understand what you're saying and I have been thinking along the same lines, I think I'm stuck on Andromeda because it was the first thing I imaged, so if I upgrade something then I like to go back to it so I can see my progression. 

I took the image below with the 90ed and 6d

I'm really happy with the result, maybe getting my 6d astromodified should be my next move, then update my camera at a later date 😀

[tomato]

If you have to come down on the size of your FOV, you can still image larger objects by doing a mosaic, ie taking a number of overlapping images and then combining them together, but it will take a lot longer to collect the data and there is more involved in the processing. However there are some really good software packages available these days for planning and processing mosaics.

And there are cheaper alternatives to the ZWO or the QHY cameras that use the   same APS-C sensor, see attached thread:

 

[RobST]

Thanks, I have been looking at the 90ed owners thread, some really nice images using the ZWO183MM.

 

[Padraic M]

2 hours ago, RobST said:

ZWO183MM

(I presume you meant MC rather than MM?) Agreed, but considered a little old-style at this stage because of the amp glow. The 533, apart from the square sensor which some don't like, beats it on all measures and has no amp glow. State of the art now though is the ASI2600 if you can afford it, or the RisingCam equivalent at half the price. People are getting some spectacular results with that sensor now.

[RobST]

Yeah sorry, I was just mentioning what I had seen people using with my particular scope.