Takahashi FS-60CB vs. Skywatcher Evostar 72ED

[HollyHound]

9 minutes ago, Sunshine said:

This reminds me of my engagement, my wife is Italian and as is tradition (at least Italians in North America) for the bride to present to her fiancé a nice gift upon my giving her an engagement ring.

What a lovely tradition 😀

To be fair, she bought me a lovely watch in return, as my engagement gift from her... so perhaps asking for another scope would be pushing it 🤣

[HollyHound]

49 minutes ago, JeremyS said:

Maybe they corrected the ADM saddle. Even fully tightened it wouldn’t grip the Tak dovetail. Other saddle clamps are fine.

Out of interest, I tried my Takahashi dovetail in another ADM saddle (dual Vixen/Losmandy that came with the Vixen GP I bought in August) and it clamps tight in that too. Of course I don't know how old or new that saddle is. It also clamps tight in the iOptron AZ Mount Pro dual saddle.

I've measured the dovetail width along the wide base at exactly 40mm and the same applies for the smaller dovetail that I removed from my Mewlon (to replace with Losmandy). How does that compare with yours @JeremyS  🤔

Edited December 4, 2021 by HollyHound
Correct measurement!

[MalcolmM]

I find I have to tighten 'very' tight the clamps on both Ioptron saddle and ADM saddle when using the Takahashi dove tail bar. But it does lock ok.

[JeremyS]

11 minutes ago, HollyHound said:

Out of interest, I tried my Takahashi dovetail in another ADM saddle (dual Vixen/Losmandy that came with the Vixen GP I bought in August) and it clamps tight in that too. Of course I don't know how old or new that saddle is. It also clamps tight in the iOptron AZ Mount Pro dual saddle.

I've measured the dovetail width along the wide base at exactly 4mm and the same applies for the smaller dovetail that I removed from my Mewlon (to replace with Losmandy). How does that compare with yours @JeremyS  🤔

Interesting, Gary. My Tak “vixen” dovetails are also 40mm, but my non brand Vixen style dovetails are 43mm. 
 

This is why my Tak dovetail is too narrow for my ADM clamp that I bought 2 or 3 years ago,

BUT I happen to have a second ADM clamp purchased last summer, but not yet installed. That grips the Tak dovetail perfectly. So they must have made adjustments to the ADM clamp.

[HollyHound]

2 minutes ago, JeremyS said:

BUT I happen to have a second ADM clamp purchased last summer, but not yet installed. That grips the Tak dovetail perfectly. So they must have made adjustments to the ADM clamp.

Wow, I know mine is only just over a year old and I the one on the Vixen looks quite new too, so indeed the must have made a subtle change... I guess they've had some complaints or comments.... either way, great to hear 👍

[HollyHound]

And I should add I meant 40mm in my earlier post (now corrected)... not 4mm!... been a long week 🤣

[JeremyS]

39 minutes ago, HollyHound said:

And I should add I meant 40mm in my earlier post (now corrected)... not 4mm!... been a long week 🤣

Don’t worry, I knew what you meant. 
I think the Tak dovetail is the outlier among vixen-style dovetails. Although I recall reading that there isn’t a standard as such. Both width and angle of the prism sides seems to vary.

Edited December 4, 2021 by JeremyS

[Stu]

9 hours ago, HollyHound said:

I was tempted, having just bought the CQ Extender from the very same gentleman, but what on earth would I do with another FC-76... make a bino-scope 🤔 🤣

If only you had saved me from myself 🤣. Have ordered a CQ Extender from FLO to go with the rest of it; FS60C and the 76mm Objective Upgrade unit so I’ll have a nice little kit for travel, grab and go and widefield. I had this setup before and missed it so will enjoy having it again I’m sure. The FS60C is such a tiny little thing you can take it anywhere.

[Andrew_B]

4 hours ago, JeremyS said:

Interesting, Gary. My Tak “vixen” dovetails are also 40mm, but my non brand Vixen style dovetails are 43mm. 
 

This is why my Tak dovetail is too narrow for my ADM clamp that I bought 2 or 3 years ago,

BUT I happen to have a second ADM clamp purchased last summer, but not yet installed. That grips the Tak dovetail perfectly. So they must have made adjustments to the ADM clamp.

I had the exact same problem as you Jeremy, in that the Tak dovetail was too narrow for the ADM clamp fitted to my AZ GTi that I bought during the summer.

Sounds like it's an issue with that one particular model of ADM clamp.

[StarryEyed]

Small refractors I've owned a skywatcher 80f5 a William Optics 80FD and a Tak FC100DF.  The set up time is the same the inconvenience is the same (AZ no motors so minimal). Opportunity to use them is the same. I suspect your looking to justify buying one and I sympathies with you on that. 

You pointed out the weather as being a problem this is cheaper to fix with additional uses. 

What you probably need is a light weight coat, a snood and good thin gloves a good head torch. I have a "mountain equipment" down jacket with all the above I the pockets. I can go out with just tshirt on underneath and still be warm. 

But I'm not saying dont buy another TAK just if you do and its cold out you probably still wont go out and use it. 

ps

And we all know its nearly always cold and rarely clear which means if its clear its probably flipping cold. 

pss

The best skies and often in mid Jan so be prepared! 

Edited December 5, 2021 by StarryEyed

[Surfer Chris]

11 hours ago, Stu said:

If only you had saved me from myself 🤣. Have ordered a CQ Extender from FLO to go with the rest of it; FS60C and the 76mm Objective Upgrade unit so I’ll have a nice little kit for travel, grab and go and widefield. I had this setup before and missed it so will enjoy having it again I’m sure. The FS60C is such a tiny little thing you can take it anywhere.

I feel a bit responsible now for a lot of lighter wallets this weekend. Sorry!

I was actually wondering last night, if there is any benefit in buying the FS-60Q as a complete scope (with red serial number badge) as opposed to buying a FS-60CB (blue badge) then the extender separately. Can't imagine there would be any difference. Other than the slight discount that is achieved in buying both items as a set of course.

In fact one dis-advantage of the red badge FS-60Q scope, is that if you ever sell the extender in the future, then you are left with a scope that claims to be a FS-60Q (but actually isn't).

[Surfer Chris]

6 minutes ago, StarryEyed said:

Small refractors I've owned a skywatcher 80f5 a William Optics 80FD and a Tak FC100DF.  The set up time is the same the inconvenience is the same (AZ no motors so minimal). Opportunity to use them is the same. I suspect your looking to justify buying one and I sympathies with you on that. 

You pointed out the weather as being a problem this is cheaper to fix with additional uses. 

What you probably need is a light weight coat, a snood and good thin gloves a good head torch. I have a "mountain equipment" down jacket with all the above I the pockets. I can go out with just tshirt on underneath and still be warm. 

But I'm not saying dont buy another TAK just if you do and its cold out you probably still wont go out and use it. 

Yes it does sound crazy doesn't it. But I genuinely do struggle for time at the moment. I work long hours (days, evenings & more often than not weekends too). I work from home in the evenings, and am lucky if I do get 15-30 minutes to myself most days. 

For me, it is about having something set-up on a tripod permanently (next to my desk) which is right in front the patio doors. I am thinking a very small scope (smaller & lighter than a SW80ED), with something like a Baader zoom installed (but I might take a couple of other eyepieces out with me too). With such a small set-up, I would feel a lot more comfortable leaving it set-up ready to grab at a moments notice. I would not feel comfortable leaving the FC-100DC set up on the tripod (have young kids and a crazy dog running about the house). Plus, outside my patio doors, I have a few stone steps to contend with. I would not feel comfortable navigating those steps with the FC-100DC mounted.

Ability to use the smaller scope more effectively during poorer seeing conditions is also another factor.

With something as light and compact as the FS-60CB/Q I feel that I would be happy enough to leave it all set-up, and walk out with it in one go. Cooldown would be negligible, so I could literally go out for 10 mins then straight back in again.

The way I have also convinced myself, is that these scopes seem to hold their value very well. So I figured give a 60mm refractor a go, see if it does provide a benefit, and if not, I can always sell it on again with minimal financial loss. In the future, when hopefully work is not so manic (and I have more time available), I may revert to just the single 100mm refractor as an only scope.

But I am also quite keen & interested to see what the FS-60 offers as a widefield scope.

[Piero]

There are both a TV-60 and a TV-76 available on astrobuysell..

Each of these would be my first choice rather than getting a new Tak-60/76 refractor.

I can understand the obsession with refractors and Takahashi in particular, but the laws of physics are still valid and a 60mm objective is still a 60mm objective.. its best use is wide field observing which is low power with some zoom ins to medium power.

I do have a 60mm and it was my only telescope for 3 years. I spotted / observed about 400 DSOs with it, so I know what I'm talking about. It's a very nice telescope and it allowed me to observe during that time. Having said this, it also has major limitations due to its small aperture. If I had to do this again and options were available, I would opt for a low cost 60mm fast refractor like the Altair one. It's quite close optically, the financial loss if you decide to sell it is way more contained and it accepts 2" diagonals (and therefore filters).

By the way, I also have a Tak FC100. It's a nice telescope for planets, DS, and large DSO with the right low power eyepiece. It falls shortly with the vast majority of DSOs, given the small aperture, despite of what the Tak club likes to believe and say about this telescope. Don't get me wrong, please. They are very fine refractors, but a larger decent quality aperture, collimated, mounted in the correct way, and left to cool properly will beat them all the time and will allow you to see more.

So in summary, I suggest not to spend a fortune here, and check the second hand market.

[Piero]

1 hour ago, Surfer Chris said:

The way I have also convinced myself, is that these scopes seem to hold their value very well.

Sorry, but I disagree with this. Maybe this is the case for the 100mm aperture, but not for the 60mm.

I did consider selling my TV-60 (bought new for £850, case excluded). At that time my asking price was £550 with case, which I considered a honest price. I got offers for £400, which I refused. That is about 60% discount for a 4 years old telescope in excellent conditions.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Piero

[HollyHound]

2 hours ago, Piero said:

So in summary, I suggest not to spend a fortune here, and check the second hand market.

I would certainly agree it's well worth checking out second hand market... I've bought both my FOA-60(Q) and FC-100DZ, plus the CQ Extender for the FS-60CB, this way... plus all of my Tele Vue eyepieces. I've bought a ton of stuff new (mostly through FLO), but buying and selling on the used marked does turn up some gems, can save some money and a good way of passing kit on you no longer need 👍

[HollyHound]

2 hours ago, Surfer Chris said:

For me, it is about having something set-up on a tripod permanently (next to my desk) which is right in front the patio doors. I am thinking a very small scope (smaller & lighter than a SW80ED), with something like a Baader zoom installed (but I might take a couple of other eyepieces out with me too). With such a small set-up, I would feel a lot more comfortable leaving it set-up ready to grab at a moments notice. I would not feel comfortable leaving the FC-100DC set up on the tripod (have young kids and a crazy dog running about the house). Plus, outside my patio doors, I have a few stone steps to contend with. I would not feel comfortable navigating those steps with the FC-100DC mounted.

As mentioned, my grab and go setup is an FC-76DCU, ScopeTech Zero and Berlebach Report... it stays permanently assembled just inside my office door and I (now) usually leave a Hyperion Zoom installed on it... it takes a minute to take it outside, I'll sometimes come back and grab the observing chair (but not always) and that's it, I'm observing.

I would highly recommend this type of setup, as it sounds like you have the same work/time/family constraints that I have. As I work with a Montreal based team, I am sometimes dealing with calls/meetings until 9/10pm, so being able to pop out for 20/30mins is very handy 😀

I had the FC-100DC (now have the DZ) and wouldn't recommend it on this type of lightweight setup, as it shakes a bit too much for my liking when you adjust the focuser... fine on the AZ100/Uni 28, but that's a much heavier beast to lug out, so I usually only do that if I know I'm going to be able to use it for at least an hour.

[JeremyS]

+1 what @HollyHoundsaid.

Berlebach Report + ScopeTech Zero head + either Tak series series or FC76 is grab and go as a single unit. FC 100 up isn’t (not for weight reasons, more logistics of getting through doors and stability)

[JeremyS]

4 hours ago, Piero said:

There are both a TV-60 and a TV-76 available on astrobuysell..

Each of these would be my first choice rather than getting a new Tak-60/76 refractor.

I can understand the obsession with refractors and Takahashi in particular, but the laws of physics are still valid and a 60mm objective is still a 60mm objective.. its best use is wide field observing which is low power with some zoom ins to medium power.

I do have a 60mm and it was my only telescope for 3 years. I spotted / observed about 400 DSOs with it, so I know what I'm talking about. It's a very nice telescope and it allowed me to observe during that time. Having said this, it also has major limitations due to its small aperture. If I had to do this again and options were available, I would opt for a low cost 60mm fast refractor like the Altair one. It's quite close optically, the financial loss if you decide to sell it is way more contained and it accepts 2" diagonals (and therefore filters).

By the way, I also have a Tak FC100. It's a nice telescope for planets, DS, and large DSO with the right low power eyepiece. It falls shortly with the vast majority of DSOs, given the small aperture, despite of what the Tak club likes to believe and say about this telescope. Don't get me wrong, please. They are very fine refractors, but a larger decent quality aperture, collimated, mounted in the correct way, and left to cool properly will beat them all the time and will allow you to see more.

So in summary, I suggest not to spend a fortune here, and check the second hand market.

All true, but the 76 will outperform any make of 60.

And the Tak 60 can be converted to a 60Q giving decent high power views. Two scopes in one.

[vineyard]

4 hours ago, Piero said:

There are both a TV-60 and a TV-76 available on astrobuysell..

Each of these would be my first choice rather than getting a new Tak-60/76 refractor.

 

+1 for the TV76.  I have one (old, bought 2nd hand) & its my most versatile scope.  Genuinely grab & go, great for solar (WL & Ha), BV'ing, AP, NV & ofc normal viewing.  Works w 2" & 1.25" EPs.  I have the single-speed focuser version & went to DeepSkyDad for a version of their AF3s which can be put on it and which makes it machine-focusable (for AP, works a treat).

[alex_stars]

Hi all,

just wanted to join the conversation now as I am in a somewhat similar situation as @Surfer Chris. I own a TS 125 Doublet on an AVX mount (we discussed the merits of that scope here). It is a fantastic scope for visual planetary. However I can't/don't want to leave the scope permanently mounted outside and it is too heavy to carry indoors on the mount and tripod. So I also think about a small grab and go setup to just carry outside as I at times set up the 125 in the evening and end up not observing long due to bad seeing conditions.

Now I wish I could just order one of these Taks, and if my budget would allow, I would go for the FC-76Q as mentioned above. However that is simply not my price range and I just can't afford such scopes. However as mentioned, I am more then happy with my TS 125 and I don't crave for any optical quality upgrade on that, So I tell myself there must be a more affordable solution for the "grab and go" setup than a:

41 minutes ago, JeremyS said:

Berlebach Report + ScopeTech Zero head + either Tak series series or FC76

Hmm. I currently contemplate the initially mentioned Skywatcher 72/420 ED-Apo on a AZ-Pronto, or the little brother of my TS 125, which would be the TS 72/432 Doublet. Another one would be the TS 80/560 Doublet, which has a bit longer FL and is still at 3 kg.

Just mention those and wonder if anybody has some experience with those. Maybe there are more people like me for whom a Tak is just a bit outside their price range.

The FC 76Q with its f/12.6 would be of course perfect for planetary, but I guess a good f/7 Apo should be just fine too as a grab and go.

Thoughts and comments very welcome.

 

[HollyHound]

12 minutes ago, alex_stars said:

The FC 76Q with its f/12.6 would be of course perfect for planetary, but I guess a good f/7 Apo should be just fine too as a grab and go.

The FC-76 I'm referring to as my grab and go is the standard FC-76DCU, which is f/7.5. I could convert it to the "Q" variant, but I have the FOA-60Q for that super long focal length planetary/double scope... as it is, it's just about a perfect scope for DSOs, doubles, lunar, planetary and very versatile (remembering it's a 76mm aperture only).

I don't have any direct experience of the 72ED, but have used the AZ Pronto (with an ST80) before and it was a nice, lightweight mount. I suspect the combination would be a perfect complementary scope to your TS125 and would likely fulfil that grab and go requirement, whilst also being significantly cheaper too 👍

Edited December 5, 2021 by HollyHound

[Stu]

A few observations to respond to some views expressed.

I’ve had a TV76 and FC-76DC and would put the Tak ahead of the TV optically, just a bit sharper and better corrected.

I don’t think you can compare a 60mm TV or Tak with an Altair 60 Finder. The views just don’t even compare in my book. One is ok for widefield views and will be flakey off axis. The other two will perform beautifully from widefield up to high power sufficient for some satisfying planetary views.

An FC-60C can take a 2” diagonal unlike the TV60 so to me that gives it more widefield potential.

Of course 60mm is only 60mm and can’t defy the laws of physics. I don’t think you can really compare a 60mm grab and go scope with an 18” truss dob! They are soooo different and you can take a baby scope anywhere and use it for quick sessions which you wouldn’t even consider for the 18”. Equally a 100mm scope is, again, only a 100mm scope and having the flexibility to go from a 3.5 degree field up to x200 plus in a very portable package makes them very flexible and useable scopes.

I don’t think anyone IS trying to compare a small apo refractor with an 18” dob. The views don’t compare for sure. The key point for me is that, as an example, I have a 16” truss dob in my garage which I bought four months ago and have yet to use. I’ve used my 2.5”, 4” and 5” scopes a number of times because they are just that much more manageable for the short sessions I’ve found possible with current lifestyle. Hopefully I will get to a stage soon where I am getting good use out of it but to me there is always a place for a range of scopes.

[Piero]

And here an answer as it seems to me that most of what I said has been misinterpreted.

I never talked about comparing a TV/Tak 60 with a 60mm (achromat) finder.. of course those are not comparable. And I wouldn't certainly try to compare the views of a 60mm with an 18" dobson. The two telescopes are different and have different purposes.

 

My point is that a 60mm is a limited telescope apart from wide field (assuming it is a short tube.. a long f.l 60mm seems to me an excellent choice for a nostalgic person of the 60-70s as I cannot really see what other benefit one can get from these nowadays). Yes, one can use a 60mm for planets, but it is not a telescope conceived for that, given that it has a 0.5mm exit pupil at 120x (besides in my book I would not call this power combined with the resolution of a 60mm ED refractor to be "sufficient for some satisfying planetary views". Under the best seeing conditions, the GRS and the Cassini division are just detectable and this using top notch planetary eyepieces. Belts on Jupiter are visible but the very few visible details are really minor. Mars at that power - no comment). The majority of accessible DSOs are detectable, but the view gets quite dark with a bit of magnification (1.5mm exit pupil at 40x..!). In any case, the point here is not whether buying one makes sense or not. As I said I have one and used as my main telescope for 3-4 years. In the OP's circumstances to me the idea of getting a small refractor for quick observations is completely sound. Having said this, a 60mm aperture does not do miracles and is intrinsically limited. Whether the OP wants to spend £1K for a 60mm, that's up to him/her. My suggestion remains to look at the second hand market because those 60s gets substantial devaluation. Besides this, there are other good ED alternatives, which could make more sense for 15-20 min sessions observing under poor seeing conditions.

[Stu]

23 hours ago, Piero said:

They are very fine refractors, but a larger decent quality aperture, collimated, mounted in the correct way, and left to cool properly will beat them all the time and will allow you to see more.

I don’t think there’s any misinterpretation Piero, and no disagreement with what you say in terms of the reward of a large reflector, it’s just they are such different propositions I don’t think it is necessarily relevant to compare them in this thread. If the OP was after a large dob then I think that’s what we would be discussing?

Of course, the used market always makes sense to make a saving, and I think TV scopes seem to lose more value than others, perhaps because they end up being over priced once imported from the US?

I’m not sure which Altair 60mm fast achro you were referring to, but I would consider them essentially just finderscopes.

EDIT I may have misinterpreted your suggestion here, if you meant an Altair 60mm EDF or similar then of course that would be pretty good optically and suitable for high power observing, similar to the TV I should think.

You will know that, although still limited by aperture, the TV/Taks are capable of so much more, whether it is widefield, doubles, lunar, solar or even planetary. Yes, I totally agree that planetary observing with a 60mm is limited, but given the choice between a scope which is capable of high power and one that isn’t, I’ll take the former every time if it’s all I can take with me. I actually enjoy the challenge of spotting the GRS/Shadow transits in a small scope, as I’m sure you enjoyed your time with your TV60 with which you achieved so many amazing results.

I actually don’t think we disagree on these points, just are perhaps coming at them from different perspectives, that’s all 👍

[HollyHound]

For reference, as we’ve been discussing the two variants of FS-60, my CQ 1.7x Extender arrived this morning, so here’s some comparison photos…

Before: FS-60CB (FL 355mm, f/5.9, super widefield)

After: FS-60Q (FL 600m, f/10, flat field quadruplet)

Edited December 6, 2021 by HollyHound