Questions about the EQ5 Dual-axis DC Motor Drive Upgrade Kit

[AstroDKP]

Hello everyone,

For your reference, my equipment... SkyWatcher 150PL, manual EQ5, used Canon 550D.

I recently purchased my first "proper" telescope, the SW 150PL, and have so far managed to take some nice photos of the Moon/planets with the 550D. However, now I would really like to try my hand at some deep-sky AP with the telescope. Unfortunately, I have found that with my manual EQ5 untracked this is not feasible, especially as I have to use the 1.5x tip of my 2x barlow to focus with the DSLR, further slowing down the scope to f12. My thinking (though I am probably wrong) is that this is why I can't image fainter stars. For instance, I tested the scope by taking exposures of Vega and its surrounding stars and no matter how hard I tried could not get any other stars in the image (except for Vega).

Therefore, I am thinking about adding some simple, budget-friendly tracking to fix this problem and capture some brighter DSOs by taking longer exposures. I am not really fussed about GoTo as I can find my way around the sky (most of the time! 😅). In particular, I was thinking of this dual-axis motor upgrade for the EQ5: https://www.firstlightoptics.com/astronomy-mount-upgrade-kits/dual-axis-dc-motor-drive-for-eq5.html. 

I would be really grateful if you could answer some of my questions...

1. Will these motors be accurate enough the take long exposure subs so that I can capture these objects? More generally, will this upgrade solve my current problem?
2. If not, any better suggestions/solutions?
3. If I end up getting this kit is it worth getting the version with the 'Enhanced Handset' (https://www.rothervalleyoptics.co.uk/skywatcher-eq5-enhanced-dual-axis-motor-drives.html) for my purpose?
4. Could I also use this to track the planets? (Sorry, I know this question doesn't quite fit under the DSO Imaging tab) 

Many thanks in advance, much appreciated. 

[Cosmic Geoff]

The length of possible exposure depends on various factors - accuracy of polar alignment, periodic errors in the gear train, accuracy of the drive box settings etc. You should get the Enhanced set as IIRC it allows you to do guiding, which you will probably want to try sooner or later.

And yes, it will be suitable for planetary imaging (a less demanding task).

Ideally you also want a f5 Newtonian modded to allow a DSLR to come into focus without use of a Barlow.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Cosmic Geoff

[Alien 13]

As above, I would add that the EQ3/5 mounts with the dual axis motors will work fine for exposures up to 3 mins if you use the camera along with a camera  lens rather than the scope either mounted piggy back on the scope or better still with a dedicated dovetail bar and ball head.. 

Alan 

[fozzybear]

1 hour ago, AstroDKP said:

I was thinking of this dual-axis motor upgrade for the EQ5: https://www.firstlightoptics.com/astronomy-mount-upgrade-kits/dual-axis-dc-motor-drive-for-eq5.html. 

That is just for the motors as you would need a control box to move the motors if not then this the one you need albeit no computer control (goto) same as the link you poster albeit from Rvo

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/astronomy-mount-upgrade-kits/enhanced-dual-axis-dc-motor-drives-for-eq-5.html

 

If you are good at diy electronics then have a look at onstep with an arduino wemos R32 and shield plus a couple of stepper motors then you can have full goto at a reasonable price  https://onstep.groups.io/g/main/wiki/19670

Edited August 8, 2021 by fozzybear

[russ]

3 hours ago, fozzybear said:

That is just for the motors as you would need a control box to move the motors if not then this the one you need albeit no computer control (goto) same as the link you poster albeit from Rvo

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/astronomy-mount-upgrade-kits/enhanced-dual-axis-dc-motor-drives-for-eq-5.html

 

If you are good at diy electronics then have a look at onstep with an arduino wemos R32 and shield plus a couple of stepper motors then you can have full goto at a reasonable price  https://onstep.groups.io/g/main/wiki/19670

The link in the original post did include the handset, it's a complete kit but it's the original handset without the ST4 port.

[PEMS]

Have met the EQ5 with the Dual Motor upgrade. I would say it is fair, not sure any more then that. Unsure of 3 minute exposures, would feel happier if you were thinking of 2 minute and less.

You need the hand box or whatever it is termed. It doesn't move the mount overly fast. The motors are DC and 6v  - NOT 12 Volts. So if you give it 12v in error that will be the end and you will need a new controller box, not sure if the motors would survive. Being DC motors the rate is controlled by the supplied voltage. In my opinion this limits the rotational accuracy. Hence the idea that exposure times needs to be on the lower side rather then the higher side. Simply they are not as well defined as stepper motors. Start low and increase the time until the captured image becomes too poor. And that depends on the scope focal length and weight.

My thoughts are they are more for the convenience of tracking rather then more full blown AP. Don't expect the final accuracy that the goto with steppers supplies. Keep the expectations realistic.

Better repeat - be careful of the voltage you supply. You will only get it wrong once.

[fozzybear]

3 hours ago, russ said:

The link in the original post did include the handset, it's a complete kit but it's the original handset without the ST4 port.

yep i hold my hands up does indeed a basic hand controller albeit not pictured on FLO website 

[russ]

8 hours ago, fozzybear said:

yep i hold my hands up does indeed a basic hand controller albeit not pictured on FLO website 

In fairness the photo does give the impression of only being the motors.   Plus your link is for the superior set with the enhanced handset.

[Alien 13]

12 hours ago, PEMS said:

Have met the EQ5 with the Dual Motor upgrade. I would say it is fair, not sure any more then that. Unsure of 3 minute exposures, would feel happier if you were thinking of 2 minute and less.

You need the hand box or whatever it is termed. It doesn't move the mount overly fast. The motors are DC and 6v  - NOT 12 Volts. So if you give it 12v in error that will be the end and you will need a new controller box, not sure if the motors would survive. Being DC motors the rate is controlled by the supplied voltage. In my opinion this limits the rotational accuracy. Hence the idea that exposure times needs to be on the lower side rather then the higher side. Simply they are not as well defined as stepper motors. Start low and increase the time until the captured image becomes too poor. And that depends on the scope focal length and weight.

My thoughts are they are more for the convenience of tracking rather then more full blown AP. Don't expect the final accuracy that the goto with steppers supplies. Keep the expectations realistic.

Better repeat - be careful of the voltage you supply. You will only get it wrong once.

Its difficult to find much technical information on these motor sets and indeed the single axis version that I am using but I am pretty sure they are stepper motors and mine certainly pulses when in use, the control box also contains a Xtal oscillator which would also support these findings... The warning about voltages is very true as there is no over voltage or reverse polarity protection in the control box but because of that these motors will happily run from a 5.2V mobile power bank.

Alan

[AstroDKP]

Thanks everyone for your help so far.

I really want to image with the telescope, focusing on planetary nebula primarily. Will these motors work well with this telescope in particular? Any first hand experience? From what you have already said though, I am thinking that with the 1200mm focal length, 6.4kg 150PL OTA, this is unlikely to be good enough for AP (although I am by no means expecting multi-minute perfect exposures). If I am correct, what other options do I have? (I have heard about a more expensive SynScan option?, though I am really trying to keep the cost low).

 

22 hours ago, fozzybear said:

If you are good at diy electronics then have a look at onstep with an arduino wemos R32 and shield plus a couple of stepper motors then you can have full goto at a reasonable price  https://onstep.groups.io/g/main/wiki/19670

I am not too bad at DIY and was definitely thinking about either making a OnStep/AstroEQ later on if I went down this route, which is why this budget kit was quite appealing to me.

[malc-c]

20 minutes ago, AstroDKP said:

Thanks everyone for your help so far.

I really want to image with the telescope, focusing on planetary nebula primarily. Will these motors work well with this telescope in particular? Any first hand experience? From what you have already said though, I am thinking that with the 1200mm focal length, 6.4kg 150PL OTA, this is unlikely to be good enough for AP (although I am by no means expecting multi-minute perfect exposures). If I am correct, what other options do I have? (I have heard about a more expensive SynScan option?, though I am really trying to keep the cost low).

 

You're stepping into the dark side now....

Other than the really bright nebula like Orion, you need a fast scope, ideally f5,   The 150PL is designed more for magnification with an f8 ratio, making more suited to luna and planetary work.  That's not to say imaging with a 6" f8 scope is impossible, it will just be harder.  Exposures will need to be longer, that means the mount needs to be very stable, PA, and track well.  The EQ5 isn't a bad mount... and you have the choice of getting the enhanced drive kit, and then messing about with DIY goto options, or buy the pro goto upgrade and use the handset.  The main difference is that the pro-goto uses stepper motors which offer more precision than the DC motors used in the basic / enhanced drive kits.  The handset is a great means of finding targets and tracking them.  With perfect polar alignment and no wind, you should be able to get a good couple of minutes unguided exposures.

The pro-goto also has the option of being connected to a PC via a suitable EQ DIR cable, and if you add a guide scope (a simple finder guider for around £200)  then with software you can have a system that will be self correcting and be able to take as long an exposure as you need.  

Your last sentence made me laugh.... getting into imaging isn't cheap...   Yes you can use basic equipment, and there have been many threads on SGL of people imaging with EQ3's and 150Ps, with DIY hacked handsets etc... and their results are quite outstanding.  But it's hard work... an analogy (and  probably not a good one) is comparing an old vintage car with a modern one.  Both will get you form A-B but the old one may need tinkering more and at times just won't play ball.  The same goes for imaging.  An HEQ5, 200P, guidescope housed permanently set up in an observatory is often out of reach of a lot of people, but for convenience, reliability, and ease of use it's worth the investment.  

Personally, if I was in your shoes, I would consider the pro-goto upgrade.  You can add a guidescope later and connect it to the ST4 port on the synscan unit.  So you can guide without the need for a PC.  But then if you decide in future that you want to dabble with computer control you can as you already have a mount that supports that with the additional cost of around £35 for an EQDIR cable, as most of the software is free.

[Bernard Murdoch]

I purchased this kit a few months ago. It took a while to arrive but it transformed my EQ5 mount. All I can say is wow ! Much improved tracking ( I had the 6v motors before) and responsive goto capabilities. 
 

https://astro-gadget.net/gadgets/control-of-telescopes/eqstarproeq5-goto-drive-upgrade-kit-for-eq-5-cg-5-meade-lxd-lx-vixen-fr-gp-dx-gpd2-orion-skyview-and-bresser-eq-4-eq-5-mounts

Edited August 19, 2021 by Bernard Murdoch
Put in correct link

[AstroDKP]

14 hours ago, Bernard Murdoch said:

I purchased this kit a few months ago. It took a while to arrive but it transformed my EQ5 mount. All I can say is wow ! Much improved tracking ( I had the 6v motors before) and responsive goto capabilities.  Highly recommended.

https://astro-gadget.net/gadgets/control-of-telescopes/eqstareq5

I hope you don't mind me asking but I would really appreciate it if you could give some specifics...

What was the maximum exposure length you could take without trailing for both the 6V DC and EqStar setups? What equipment were you using (total weight, focal length)?

Thanks

[powerlord]

If you decide to go for the cheap motors/controller tracking only option, pm me - I have an set unused in box I'll sell you as I got them, then got an eqstarpro imediately as decided I wanted goto.

stu

[Bernard Murdoch]

On 10/08/2021 at 07:18, AstroDKP said:

I hope you don't mind me asking but I would really appreciate it if you could give some specifics...

What was the maximum exposure length you could take without trailing for both the 6V DC and EqStar setups? What equipment were you using (total weight, focal length)?

Thanks

I've never tested my mount by seeing how long I could go before stars would elongate from mount error. I was frustrated by poor guiding results when using PHD and medium focal lengths (400 to 600mm). Last winter I took my mount apart , cleaned out the old grease, re-greased and adjusted the mount.  During the spring, I made a stupid mistake and sent too much voltage to the hand control and fried it. I found a replacement and ordered it but of course, ended up with the same guiding problems I had before. That's when I discovered the Astro Gadget system. I ordered it after contacting them to be sure it would fit my mount. They quickly answered and assured me it would fit perfectly. Indeed it did ! Goto capability really transforms the observing/astrophoto game. When set-up, I use my Iphone to  point my telescope to objects. When I check at the eyepiece, the object is sitting in the field of view; Marvellous ! 

As for guiding accuracy, it has improved ( again judging from guiding when I use PHD ) . Backlash is substantially diminished and the mount is much more responsive to corrections from the computer .  I attribute the improvement to better motors and the belt drives. I recently loaded the mount with 14lbs of gear (80mm scope, 50mm guide scope, side by side saddle, guide and main cameras) and found that was close to the mount's limit. Some of the 60 sec frames were unusable but most were good. This is an image from that test (at 600mm FL).

[AstroDKP]

Sorry it took me a while to reply. I decided to contact Astro Gadget as well and see what they said about the tracking accuracy. They assured me that the the system will be good enough for AP with my equipment, thus I plan to purchase an EQStarEQ5 upgrade kit in the few days. 

Once again thank you all very, very much for your help and advice. 

[adyj1]

14 minutes ago, AstroDKP said:

thus I plan to purchase an EQStarEQ5 upgrade kit in the few days

Out of interest, where will you be sourcing it from?

I had an untracked EQ5, upgraded it with the dual-axis motor kit you first proposed and then got bitten by both the GOTO and DIY bugs at the same time. Had to sell the 6v motors as they weren't suitable and went with an AstroEQ controller and stepper motors (a bit like the onstep).

The EQStarEQ5 setup looks like a good choice.

[AstroDKP]

Yh sure. I was going to get it from the link given to me...

On 09/08/2021 at 22:06, Bernard Murdoch said:

https://astro-gadget.net/gadgets/control-of-telescopes/eqstareq5

 

[adyj1]

14 hours ago, AstroDKP said:

Yh sure. I was going to get it from the link given to me...

 

Good luck - I'd be interested to know the final cost, as it looks a good option... 

[Bernard Murdoch]

Just to be sure everyone understands what type mount the EQStar EQ5 kit fits on, here are shots of the mount before, and after the kit motors were installed.

 

Edited August 14, 2021 by Bernard Murdoch
replaced picture with new motors

[Bernard Murdoch]

Finally getting good guiding from the mount. The clincher was to make sure there was a bit more weight on the east side of the telescope-counterweight axis. That ensures the drive gear is always pushing on the same side of the worm gear. ( Hope this makes sense !)

The EQStar kit is living up to its promise !

[adyj1]

Great result! 

Do you mind saying how much it ended up costing with shipping and any duty? 

 

[Bernard Murdoch]

4 hours ago, adyj1 said:

Great result! 

Do you mind saying how much it ended up costing with shipping and any duty? 

 

It cost me $279 + $24 shipping (US$). It took several weeks to arrive here in Canada but, luckily, I was not charged any duty.

Edited August 19, 2021 by Bernard Murdoch
More precise pricing

[Bernard Murdoch]

 

The link I provided earlier is the wrong one. The kit installed on my mount is this one. Please write them to be sure you have a good fit. I sent them a picture of my mount to be sure and got a quick reply.

https://astro-gadget.net/gadgets/control-of-telescopes/eqstarproeq5-goto-drive-upgrade-kit-for-eq-5-cg-5-meade-lxd-lx-vixen-fr-gp-dx-gpd2-orion-skyview-and-bresser-eq-4-eq-5-mounts
 

 

[HollyHound]

This is an interesting and very timely thread.

I’m looking to start doing some (very) basic imaging as the nights start getting darker, and so was looking for a lightweight but reasonable EQ mount, with tracking and goto, on which I can mount my Takahashi FS-60C.

Was fortunate to see and buy this one from the sales posts on here:

It has the same EQStarPro setup you have described, so I’ll be very interested to see how it performs.

I already have plenty of Alt/Az mounts, but no EQ mount until now.

Intending to use it with my ASIAir Pro and ZWO 294MC camera (neither of which have seen much use yet, due to work and weather 🤣).

Should be here later next week and hopefully can give it a go sometime over the next few weeks. However any serious attempts at imaging are likely to be later in the year, as I understand there’s a lot to learn 🤔

I’ll add my findings to the thread when I can 👍

Cheers, Gary

Edited August 21, 2021 by HollyHound