Improve on quality?

[BenR]

Hello, 

I've had my telescope for nearly half a year, and because its England, the weather has been so bad that I've only gone out a couple times.

I hitched a tent up the other day, and with my telescope I was looking at Mars. 

I observed Mars as a small white dot, and I couldn't see any detail. 

I know how to focus the observation, and have been, until it is clear. but as I said, it is just a clear white dot.

If someone could give me advice on how to improve on the detail, if I have to buy anything, if I'm not doing it right, etc., then please do. 

 

[M40]

I think Mars is a bit of white dot to most of us at the moment , so don't get concerned about seeing detail. I am more than happy when I manage to find the things I set out to find.

I got really keen the other morning and had a look at Jupiter, if you fancy getting up at 04.00 and have a clear view to the SE at about 20degree's you could always give that a go. The Moon is not well positioned currently but have you thought about trying to split a couple of double stars? try Mizah or Cor Caroli, both well positioned. 

[Grant93]

Mars is only really good at and around opposition. At the moment its very far away therefore very small. Even when its close you still need perfect conditions to see detail. I'm no expert, but what I've found from other peoples advice, no matter how silly it sounds - you need to concentrate when observing this, and other things that are hard to observe like a lot of DSOs. Your eyes will pick up more the longer you sit there and study the subject.

Mars in my opinion, probably isn't worth observing at the moment! Too low on the horizon and too far away! Like M40 said above, split some stars, wait for the moons next phase. And also try some bright DSOs such as M13, M92, M57, and if you want to challenge your eyes, M51! All of these are in good positions at the moment! Although you will have to wait until past midnight for it to get dark (Even though its still not perfect darkness being close to summer solstice.

I am all new to this myself also, but this is what I've learnt from my experience and advice off others!

Grant

[Tiny Clanger]

2 hours ago, BenR said:

Hello, 

I've had my telescope for nearly half a year, and because its England, the weather has been so bad that I've only gone out a couple times.

I hitched a tent up the other day, and with my telescope I was looking at Mars. 

I observed Mars as a small white dot, and I couldn't see any detail. 

I know how to focus the observation, and have been, until it is clear. but as I said, it is just a clear white dot.

If someone could give me advice on how to improve on the detail, if I have to buy anything, if I'm not doing it right, etc., then please do. 

 

As has been said, Mars is not favourably placed at the mo., but Saturn and Jupiter are becoming more likely targets as the next  few months have them rising earlier .they were both very low when I accidentally noticed (at the end of a late/early session on the last day of May)  that they had just cleared my neighbour's roof at about 3am, not fabulous detailed views in my  ST80 at a pretty low 66xmagnification, (the dob couldn't see them , my garden fence was in the way) but I could see the 4 Galilean moons of Jupiter and some indistinct colour banding, and the neatly defined rings of Saturn. Anything  lower than around 20 degrees above the horizon is, as these were that night,  probably a poor target for your telescope, not much detail can be  resolved.

Seeing the brighter planets as just white discs is not unusual : your eyes adjusted to the darkness to take in more light is usually a good thing for viewing dimmer objects, but you can be dazzled by the brighter ones . Do you use a Moon filter ? It is essentially just like using sunglasses ! I had to buy one to use with my 150mm dob, because it collects so much light I physically recoiled from my first sight of the full Moon in it ! I don't need a filter at all on my 127 mak (or little 80mm frac) , it all depends on the 'scope aperture and your eyes. In a similar way,  seeing a bright planet  against the dark sky you may only get a shining disc . If you have a Moon filter, you could try that with the planets too, if not , one thing I found worked last year when I was looking at Mars was to destroy my night vision deliberately by nipping indoors (the opposite of what to do when looking for faint stuff ) . I also bought a very cheap set of coloured filters (less than £15 from the Far East via Amaz. ) to see if they helped . They did, increasing the contrast between areas, so I have subsequently bought some better ones second hand from here.

Another filter I bought, but have not used on the planets yet , is a variable neutral density filter, which is actually two polarizing filters you can rotate one and produce an infinite range of darkening ,so suit the level of light precisely to what is comfortable. I don't know if this will be useful or not , the effectiveness of filters seems to be a very personal thing, which I why I went for the very cheap coloured ones to try the idea out first. By the way, if your 'scope has a small cap-within- a -cap on the front, try using just that smaller aperture on a planet (making sure to have the cap aperture offset from any vanes if your 'scope has them) , its a way to cut the light down a bit , it's not great, but its free and easy to try .

So, don't  be discouraged , you just need to observe what is offering the best opportunity for a good view when a clear night comes around ... if the Moon is up, look at the Moon, if it isn't , try for faint fuzzies, , if a particular  planet appears large because its orbit and ours have bought us closer, and it is reasonably high in the sky, go for that.  Mars was close last year, and wonderful to  view , it will be again, we just have to wait patiently .

Heather

 

[BenR]

Thanks for your reply.

Do you think i would be able to see Saturn and Jupiter with more detail?

[Stu]

7 minutes ago, BenR said:

Thanks for your reply.

Do you think i would be able to see Saturn and Jupiter with more detail?

Just to give you some context, I’m posting some screenshots from SkySafari of Mars, Jupiter and Saturn now, and when they are next at Opposition. These are only to be taken as relative sizes, not as an indication of the size and detail in the eyepiece which will be much less.

Mars varies in size hugely because it can either be near the Earth at approx 50 ish million miles, or on the opposite side of the sun at approx 250 ish million miles. Jupiter and Saturn are always a long way away, so the earth’s orbit in comparison makes less difference to their distance and therefore size.

Either way though, planets are best viewed at opposition when they are at their closest, and also at their highest altitude above the horizon as they transition at around 00.00 UT.

To answer your question, yes, you will see Jupiter and Saturn better than Mars at the moment, but they are currently transiting at 6am and 5am ish respectively so it is still tricky to see them at their best. Over the months, as they approach opposition they will transit earlier so you will start to be able to see their at their highest when it is darker.

Jupiter is at opposition on 20th August this year, Saturn on 2nd August and Mars not until 8th December 2022.
 

Altitude above the horizon also makes a big difference to views, and Jupiter and Saturn are getting higher each opposition after a long period of being very low. Jupiter will be at 25 degrees, Saturn at about 20 degrees and Mars at over 60 degrees.

So, planetary observing is a game of patience needing the planets to be well positioned, as well as good seeing conditions and a well collimated and cooled scope, plus patience at the eyepiece. The rewards are well worthwhile though, which is why so many of us nutters still do it 🤪🤪🤣🤣.

[Pixies]

And for more context, here's a chart showing the relative sizes of these 3 planets - with the  smallest to largest extents to their ranges:

Mars 'enjoys' the biggest difference. Also, not obvious from the above, it doesn't spend very long at the largest extent:

For reference, the above were taken from here:

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/619945-mars-angular-size-some-plots/

[wibblefish]

12 hours ago, Stu said:

Over the months, as they approach opposition they will transit earlier so you will start to be able to see their at their highest when it is darker.

Jupiter is at opposition on 20th August this year, Saturn on 2nd August and Mars not until 8th December 2022.

Forgive me the noobish question but I am currently trying to work out if and when I will be able to try and see Jupiter and Saturn as I am quite constrained in the directions Stellarium is telling me about sadly ... would these dates be when they will likely reach the highest points in the sky? 

Edited June 8, 2021 by wibblefish

[Zermelo]

On 06/06/2021 at 09:07, BenR said:

Hello, 

I've had my telescope for nearly half a year, and because its England, the weather has been so bad that I've only gone out a couple times.

I hitched a tent up the other day, and with my telescope I was looking at Mars. 

I observed Mars as a small white dot, and I couldn't see any detail. 

I know how to focus the observation, and have been, until it is clear. but as I said, it is just a clear white dot.

If someone could give me advice on how to improve on the detail, if I have to buy anything, if I'm not doing it right, etc., then please do. 

 

 

Some good advice already given above.

Jupiter and Saturn in particular are not well placed for viewing from northern latitudes at the moment.  Jupiter is in Aquarius and Saturn in Capricorn, both constellations that don't rise far above our horizons, which has some negative impact on the quality of the resulting images. Unlike Mars, these two planets move quite slowly through the skies, so it will be a while before they are in better constellations and have a greater declination.
This website shows some charts for Jupiter and Saturn.

Also, if you've not seen it yet, you might want to have a look at this thread that shows you what you might see:

 

[Stu]

1 hour ago, wibblefish said:

Forgive me the noobish question but I am currently trying to work out if and when I will be able to try and see Jupiter and Saturn as I am quite constrained in the directions Stellarium is telling me about sadly ... would these dates be when they will likely reach the highest points in the sky? 

Oppositions are when the planets are around their closest to the Earth, and they transit the meridian (due south) at 00:00 UT. The altitude is not greater, sometimes it is actually lower, it’s just that it occurs at a more convenient time and the planet is at its closest.

These two show Jupiter transiting now and at opposition. Altitude now is 27 degrees but it occurs after 6am. At opposition the altitude is 25 degrees but is occurs at 1.11am and the planet is closer.

[M40]

14 hours ago, Stu said:

Just to give you some context, I’m posting some screenshots from SkySafari of Mars, Jupiter and Saturn now, and when they are next at Opposition. These are only to be taken as relative sizes, not as an indication of the size and detail in the eyepiece which will be much less.

Looks like I have a year to learn how to use the camera 🤣 Thanks Stu, great pointer 👌

 

15 hours ago, BenR said:

Thanks for your reply.

Do you think i would be able to see Saturn and Jupiter with more detail?

One of my favourite places is the FOV calculator at the top of the forum (resources, astronomy tools, FOV calculator). If you select visual mode, input your telescope and eyepiece plus barlow, select solar system and Mars then add to view, the tool will give you some idea of what to expect. If you then change from Mars to Jupiter you will get an idea of the difference in size and what to expect. Have a play with it, it's a superb tool. 

[John]

30 minutes ago, M40 said:

One of my favourite places is the FOV calculator at the top of the forum (resources, astronomy tools, FOV calculator). If you select visual mode, input your telescope and eyepiece plus barlow, select solar system and Mars then add to view, the tool will give you some idea of what to expect. If you then change from Mars to Jupiter you will get an idea of the difference in size and what to expect. Have a play with it, it's a superb tool. 

That tool is excellent for comparing the field of view and the scale of the target object within it with various combinations of kit give but should be treated with caution with regards to it being a guide to the amount of detail that you will see - it tends to be rather optimistic !

 

 

[wibblefish]

@Stu appreciated, I am hoping there might be a window of time in August where I can grab a view of both planets from my garden at some silly small angle between a house and a tree lol guess I'll have to wait and see, Stellarium and Skyview disagree slightly on the exact angle as per where I point the phone

If not I'll have to work on getting something a little more portable next year and driving out somewhere of an evening  

Edited June 8, 2021 by wibblefish

[Pixies]

2 hours ago, wibblefish said:

@Stu appreciated, I am hoping there might be a window of time in August where I can grab a view of both planets from my garden at some silly small angle between a house and a tree lol guess I'll have to wait and see, Stellarium and Skyview disagree slightly on the exact angle as per where I point the phone

If not I'll have to work on getting something a little more portable next year and driving out somewhere of an evening  

Last year I got a little Skywatcher Skymax 90 off ebay. It cost me £40 after I sold the rubbish eq1 mount it came with and I put it on a photo tripod.

I must admit it wasn't my favourite scope, having such a long focal length and small aperture, but lacking the contrast of a refractor. What it was good at, though, was the gas giants. During the 'great' conjunction, I had it up on tables, out of windows and off in the car, to try and find a good location. What I'm trying to say, is that if you can find one secondhand, it is a very cheap way of getting a very portable and useful tool for viewing Saturn and Jupiter.

[Tiny Clanger]

4 hours ago, wibblefish said:

@Stu appreciated, I am hoping there might be a window of time in August where I can grab a view of both planets from my garden at some silly small angle between a house and a tree lol guess I'll have to wait and see, Stellarium and Skyview disagree slightly on the exact angle as per where I point the phone

If not I'll have to work on getting something a little more portable next year and driving out somewhere of an evening  

Here's an idea , which I know works on the desktop/download version of stellarium , but I don't know if it can be done on the online or app versions.

Run the stellarium date forward by at  least a month, and select a planet, make a note of the alt & az rounded to the nearest degree. Nip out into the garden one clear night (cue light ironic laughter ...) and , with the current date/time set, and having activated the alt/az grid overlay on stellarium, see if you are able to spot a star at or near that alt/az the planet will be near on the future date. 

Heather

[Stu]

4 hours ago, wibblefish said:

@Stu appreciated, I am hoping there might be a window of time in August where I can grab a view of both planets from my garden at some silly small angle between a house and a tree lol guess I'll have to wait and see, Stellarium and Skyview disagree slightly on the exact angle as per where I point the phone

If not I'll have to work on getting something a little more portable next year and driving out somewhere of an evening  

I have three different horizons mapped into Skysafari which were generated at three different positions in my garden. This allows me to see when low down objects might be visible. For instance, currently I could see Jupiter from 3.27am when it clears the trees, and if I could still track it in daylight, it would go behind the houses at about 7.06am.

You could do likewise, generate a horizon and import it into SkySafari to see whether you have a chance or not by winding forward the date to simulate the view.

[Tiny Clanger]

Yep, I have a custom landscape added to my desktop stellarium, it gives me a good approximation, but with a tiny garden,  even moving 2m from the  point where I took the panoramic photo changes what can be seen over the fences/neighbour's houses quite a bit , and I have to do a new photo now anyway, the neighbour's trees have grown since last August, and I've severely pruned the buddleia for a clearer view to the east  !

[Tiny Clanger]

2am , my garden, if I'm lucky ....

[Stu]

9 minutes ago, Tiny Clanger said:

Yep, I have a custom landscape added to my desktop stellarium, it gives me a good approximation, but with a tiny garden,  even moving 2m from the  point where I took the panoramic photo changes what can be seen over the fences/neighbour's houses quite a bit , and I have to do a new photo now anyway, the neighbour's trees have grown since last August, and I've severely pruned the buddleia for a clearer view to the east  !

Yep, that’s why I have three setup for my regular observing spots.

[blameTECHIE]

oh I'm going to have to look at how you add custom landscapes to Stellarium ....

[wibblefish]

Yeah I had already done the wind forward time a bit with Stellarium and Skyview (I think I checked at the end of Aug and into Sept) hence why I think there "may" be a window through various obstacles in the direction but I have found that your mileage often does vary with the mobile app positioning sadly! I like the idea of the custom landscaping etc so might have to look into that with the various apps I have and see what is possible  

Failing that this year I will at least know for next year that I maybe have to go to another site if needs be, I am also going to check the same positioning at my in-laws place across town as they have a more open area!

Clearly I now need a small portable Mak 90 / 100 in addition to the 8" Dobsonian that is on the wish list when darker skies return later this year  

Edited June 9, 2021 by wibblefish

[Stu]

10 hours ago, wibblefish said:

Failing that this year I will at least know for next year that I maybe have to go to another site if needs be, I am also going to check the same positioning at my in-laws place across town as they have a more open area!

Just to add complication to this thought, things do not remain the same year on year, and Jupiter will be much higher next year than this year. 25 degrees this opposition, 38.6 degrees next opposition in September 2022. So this year may involve heading elsewhere but hopefully next year won’t.